Originally posted by Estragon
As ever, wading into Revelation is like selling pork chops wrapped in Haaretz in the middle of Riyadh.
But this seems a very reasonable avenue to pursue.
The “second death” is quite clear. It’s as literal as can be in the Greek: the usual word for “death”+ “thanatos”:“Ho thanatos ho deuteros” and it
would be taking liberties with the text to claim that the text is saying anything other than than that the sinners literally die twice.
Everyone dies once: all are resurrected: the good are raised incorruptible and will die no more: the sinners die a second time in the lake of
fire.
1Cor 15:51 says that we shall not all die, but everyone shall be
transformed
The customary references pertain:
Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Peter 4:6;1 Corinthians 15:51-56, Revelation 20:5-6).
What isn’t clear is if the soul dies at this second death. It can be maintained that the soul endures an eternity in the flames. I can certainly see a
case for this: there is full bodily resurrection of the good and their flesh is thereafter imperishable as well as their souls. The bad perish
physically, a second time; but their equally eternal souls are forever separated from God and they roast for all eternity.
Wow. Suddenly found out that I've been on the wrong track here. I always believed that it said "...the second death, the death of the soul...", but
now I see that I've been wrong. Please forgive me. Wonder where I got that from... Probably from an alternate source. Does anyone know where it says
that the lake of fire means the death of the soul. I can't find it anywhere... Thanks for clearing this up Estragon. Do you know where it is said
that the second death means the death of the soul? Where I may have picked this up? Quite confused right now...
Anyway, I went to 4th Ezra, one of the Apocrypha to the Tannakh. Below I've pasted a clip from a conversation between Ezra and the angelic messenger
about death and the soul. Good read. You can find this book at
www.hti.umich.edu...
Blessings,
Mikromarius
4th Ezra on death and the soul
From chapter 7:
[75] I answered and said, "If I have found favor in thy sight, O Lord, show this also to thy servant: whether after death, as soon as every one of us
yields up his soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when thou wilt renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?"
[76] He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not be associated with those who have shown scorn, nor number yourself among those
who are tormented. [77] For you have a treasure of works laid up with the Most High; but it will not be shown to you until the last times. [78] Now,
concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to
return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. [79] And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not
kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his law, and who have hated those who fear God -- [80] such spirits shall not enter into
habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways. [81] The first way, because they have scorned the
law of the Most High. [82] The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. [83] The third way, they shall see the
reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. [84] The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves
in the last days. [85] The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. [86] The sixth way,
they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. [87] The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because
they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom
they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.
[88] "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. [89] During the
time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver
perfectly. [90] Therefore this is the teaching concerning them: [91] First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them,
for they shall have rest in seven orders. [92] The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was
formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death. [93] The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls
of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them. [94] The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them,
that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust. [95] The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy,
being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days. [96] The fifth order,
they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which
they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. [97] The sixth order, when it is shown to them
how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. [98] The seventh
order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and
shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when
glorified. [99] This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who
would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
[100] I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described
to me?"
[101] He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told,
and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
