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posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by -W1LL
reply to post by macman
 


so why post or even read ...


It's a free country {Which some have sacrificed all so that others could exercise that freedom}



BTW your military is in other countries right now do you not care what is happening ?




"Your" Military?

You state Montana as your location? Are you even American? If so, are you that disassociated with the US that you feel apart from the rest of us? If so, wouldn't that constitute a certain level of bias?

If not, Couldn't this thread and your stance be considered the postings of an outside agitator just stirring the pot?

Requests some clarification on the ground rules before the next bell...
edit on 21-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by -W1LL
 


Soooo.... Not all protestors are rioters, yet all cops use excessive force and routinely beat people.

Respectfully, that is what I got from your post.

Try this -
Pretend you are a police officer standing in line with 50 other officers to your left and right. You look forward into a sea of thousands of people yelling, moving about etc. That behavior is fine, its protesting.

Now, you see the crowd coming close, and you start to get pelted with beer bottles, rocks, paint, paint cans, urine, etc etc etc.

There are 2 choices - move forward and attempt to locate and engage the people who are throwing those items / performing those actions keeping in mind the moment you advance you have just escalated the situation to a potential deadly force encounter due to the sheer number of people that now surround you.

The other choice is to employ pepper spray, pepperball guns (modified paintball guns) tear gas and flash bangs in order to get the group to back off.

The ability of an officer to employ deadly force while standing in a line is very low. That ability and justification to use deadly force rises significantly if the officer moves forward and is surrounded by the crowd.

Remeber, the use of force by the police is reviewed in the realm of what did the officer perceive the exact moment for was used. Hindsight 20/20 cannot be used as a factor for judging those actions (Supreme Court Ruling).


you may see that but its furthest from the truth if I want to say all cops are using excessive force i would just say it.

your story is nice but its just that a hypothetical story and not actual events. maybe one localized even or a police provocation IDK thats why its hypothetical.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


say what you like you are assuming and attacking me personally and that is ignorant you do not know me...



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by -W1LL
 



I have posted this in a Couple OWS Like threads about Kent State ....


Ive Also Posted about the unusually Unknown Group of WW1 Vets in 1932 wanting their Rightful Bonus Money ! as they were Named the Bonus Army that Protested in Washington when Our Country (USA)
was inn Turmoil of the Cause of the Great Depression !! The 1st Rescission !

Yes the ex-text is Cut & Paste and quite long and Necessary

as a Occupy Movement with pinched Tents and Camping out to such as like having a Little Town with in the Camp Unemployed Jobless WW1 Vets Demanding their Money from the Certificates from Their Serving Duty



The Bonus Army was the popular name of an assemblage of some 43,000 marchers—17,000 World War I veterans, their families, and affiliated groups—who gathered in Washington, D.C., in the spring and summer of 1932 to demand immediate cash-payment redemption of their service certificates. Its organizers called it the Bonus Expeditionary Force to echo the name of World War I's American Expeditionary Force, while the media called it the Bonus March. It was led by Walter W. Waters, a former Army sergeant.

Many of the war veterans had been out of work since the beginning of the Great Depression. The World War Adjusted Compensation Act of 1924 had awarded them bonuses in the form of certificates they could not redeem until 1945. Each service certificate, issued to a qualified veteran soldier, bore a face value equal to the soldier's promised payment plus compound interest. The principal demand of the Bonus Army was the immediate cash payment of their certificates.

Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time, visited their camp to back the effort and encourage them.[1] On July 28, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the army to clear the veterans' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded the infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned.

A second, smaller Bonus March in 1933 at the start of the Roosevelt Administration was defused with promises instead of military action. In 1936, Congress overrode President Franklin D. Roosevelt's veto to pay the veterans their bonus years early.


Stats from Wikipedia


Bonus ( Occupy ) Protesters Fighting the MAN ( Police) in their Camping Grounds
Fighting to Stay!
(( Note The Police Officer Wresting trying to take Down The The Protester (an Occupy))
(( and the Protester STILL Holding a Flag For Hope & Country !! ))
(( The Irony ! you would ONLY SEE in a Cartoon but this is LIve and Real ))



The Burning Encampment Homes of the Bonus Army


Bonus Army marches on Washington, DC 1932


Well Hopefully If we Ever get out of this Mess of a Near Recession !
I hope it wont turn out to be like the Great depression and living in a Hooverville
a Carbon Copy of the Camps of the Bonus Army in 1932

Welcome to Hooverville


to Add what about all the War Bonds that were not claimed ! Some How People just Happen to look into
Grandpa's and Grandma's (Buy War Bonds WW2) Belongings and their Heirs Claimed to Inherent Them !

People Start Looking ! !


Another Thing I would like to Contribute to this Thread is

a Movie called the Trial of Billy Jack ! (2nd Billy Jack Movie )

in which Reminding me so much of what is Going on to day about Violence between Protesting Movement and the State & Government and a School Exposing the Politicians and the Politicians Fight back Forcefully tasking out a School and basically Ends Up like what has happened in Kent State also the Movie shows Other Kent State Ohio similar Protesting massacres within The US at the Beginning of the Movie .. that is now not much recognizable

The movie has Strong Vibe's of what is Happening today of Fighting back The Politicians & Governments causing a Mess round the World !

ATS == if you see this Movie ( Trial Of Billy Jack ) you Will See The Similarity's of what happening Now Just Keep an Open Ear Yes there are Some Cheesy Moments just bare with it,, just remember Tom Laughlin (Billy Jack) and his Company was On a Extreme Shoe String Budget so he had to make do..

The Trial of Billy Jack
en.wikipedia.org...


There is People that Protest the Corrupted Government and 1 percenters

There is People that Protest The Unneedley War in Iraq Afghanistan and the Building up in Iran ans Syria


And i see People in the Occupy movement of Wall Street are Protesting for the Wrong Reasons from what The Originality Reason was , I see most of them Yuppies as i can see and Mixed in with the Original Cause

The Kent State was about The Indochina War


Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.[6][7] There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of four million students,[8] and the event further affected the public opinion—at an already socially contentious time—over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War.[9]


Kent State shootings
en.wikipedia.org...

I Would not Compare the Kent State Shooting to The Occupy unless it was also involved of the Wars of Iraq & Afghanistan Iran Syria Etc.. in which it isnt

edit on 21-11-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)
edit on 21-11-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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I dont know... I feel that the protests back in the day had something of a purpose.. Anti Vietnam war, sure I don't agree with it.. but it was a point... they were rude the returning soldiers to the point where the US Gov. Said don't wear your uniforms back home; makes you a target.

Whatever I'm surprised some of you are shocked... you were all wanting violence and now its here... Not so fun is it?



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


ok so we know your stance just sit back and let the world go to hell coz things will change as they always do.. let he criminals in power do the same as they have done since vietnam and before...

why even post? matter of fact why even breath?



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by -W1LL
 


What that first video proves with the voice issuing a command is that the Guardsmen were not willy nilly shooting at will.
The real investigation ends with declassified testimony that they were responding to a sniper in the crowd. Remember some provocateurs in OWS also do things like throw bottles.
Like OWS, Kent State riots had been declared spontaneous and not organized....Hmmmm how interesting. Like Kent State, Bernadine Dohrn of the SDS and Weatherman Underground are loosely involved. The radical involvement in OWS has alrealdy been exposed, whereas in Kent State it took decades for it to come out.

ronbosoldier.blogspot.com...


The upheaval that enveloped the northeastern Ohio campus actually began three days earlier, in downtown Kent. Stirred to action by President Nixon's expansion of U.S. military operations in Cambodia, a roving mob of earnest antiwar activists, hard-core radicals, curious students and others smashed 50 bank and store windows, looted a jewelry store and hurled bricks and bottles at police.
Four officers suffered injuries, and the mayor declared a civil emergency. Only tear gas dispersed the mob.


An exhaustive review later concluded that this unrest on the streets — the worst in Kent's history — was "not an organized riot or a planned protest."



But the FBI's investigation swiftly uncovered reliable evidence that suggested otherwise. Among the strongest was a pre-dawn conversation — never before reported — between two unnamed men overheard inside a campus lounge later that night. Their discussion was witnessed by the girlfriend of a Kent State student and conveyed up the FBI chain of command 15 days later.
"We did it," one man exulted, according to the inquiry. "We got the riot started."


Now largely forgotten, the torching of the ROTC building was the true precursor to the killings at Kent State because it triggered the deployment of the National Guard to the fevered campus.



A female freshman provided the FBI with a sworn statement that "there was no shot before [the guardsmen's] volley, and there were no warning shots fired."


et the declassified FBI files show the FBI already had developed credible evidence suggesting that there was indeed a sniper



It is easy to see the comparisons.

edit on 21-11-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by Wolfenz
 


Great....

So now some OWS supporters not only try to peg themselves to the 60s Generation fight to end the Vietnam war level, Now somebody wants to also attach them to WW-I era Vets {who actually sacrificed and contributed to rebuilding this country after the Great Depression} as well.

This desperate attempt to add OWS some historical legitimacy and the flagrant audacity to portray it on those levels is Pathetic.

edit on 21-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by macman
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Yes, Mayor, City Council and governing body of the campus.



The Mayor was Leroy Satrom. Governor Rhodes was on-site to direct. he had come from Columbus over the weekend.

Source: The Kent State Shootings
See in particular the "time line" section.




Kent Mayor Leroy Satrom declared a state of emergency, called Ohio Governor James Rhodes' office to seek assistance




City officials and downtown businesses received threats while rumors proliferated that radical revolutionaries were in Kent to destroy the city and university.




Satrom made the decision to call Governor Rhodes and request that the National Guard be sent to Kent, a request that was granted. Because of the rumors and threats, Satrom believed that local officials would not be able to handle future disturbances.




The decision to call in the National Guard was made at 5:00 P.M., but the guard did not arrive into town that evening until around 10 P.M. A large demonstration was already under way on the campus, and the campus Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) building was burning.

...

More than a thousand protesters surrounded the building and cheered its burning. Several Kent firemen and police officers were struck by rocks and other objects while attempting to extinguish the blaze. Several fire engine companies had to be called in because protesters carried the fire hose into the Commons and slashed it.


So you see, it really didn't matter whether it was a D or an R calling the shots - something had to be done, and whether the course taken was the proper one will be debate until it no longer is, Personally, I think it was the right direction, but undsisciplined overkill.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


there is no proof of that just as there is no proof these black hooded rock and piss throwing OWS protesters werent paid to make the movement look bad.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Wolfenz
 


Great....

So now some OWS supporters not only try to peg themselves to the 60s Generation fight to end the wars level. Now somebody wants to attach them WW-I era Vets who actually sacrificed and contributed to rebuilding this country after the Great Depression too.

This desperate attempt to add OWS some legitimacy and the flagrant audacity to portray it on their level is Pathetic.


Agreed. Is it just me or does it seem like Every day they try a new tactic to gather the Hearts of the down trodden... Yet spew their hate? I don't know.. the hypocrisy will catch up eventually.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by -W1LL
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


say what you like you are assuming and attacking me personally and that is ignorant you do not know me...


No offense. It was not an attack. They were questions. Never mind, you don't have to answer.

Was just curious is all.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Ok, then. I stand corrected with that.

The response was justified, not very settling, but that is what happens when you play with fire.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by -W1LL
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


there is no proof of that just as there is no proof these black hooded rock and piss throwing OWS protesters werent paid to make the movement look bad.


So what you are saying then is its everyone elses fault...



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


That's pretty arrogant to declare a thread failed.



This thread is simply trying to play on peoples emotions. There is no real comparison between the Vietnam War era Protesters and OWS! As has already been pointed out earlier. The 60s generation who protested the wars did so to stop the killing not for Government supplied freebies.


I think the failure in this thread lies at pretty obvious feet. Once again for the umpteenth time these protests are not about asking for handouts. The comparison the OP makes in my opinion is to the brutality being used against protesters then and now, not per se what the protests are about.

However in my opinion (not the OP's) there is a legit comparison on the reasons behind the protests. Who profits off of war? Corporations are a large benefactor of war. Also, we are protesting economic injustice which in truth is still in part about civil rights.

Here is the biggest part of the failure. There is all this anger, outright disgust and scorn directed to Occupy and anyone on ATS who participates or supports, so much so that it over-rides anger against police brutality.

C'mon boys, aint you had enough fun yet?



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by -W1LL
reply to post by nenothtu
 


ok so we know your stance just sit back and let the world go to hell coz things will change as they always do.. let he criminals in power do the same as they have done since vietnam and before...

why even post? matter of fact why even breath?


Not even close, grasshopper.

Change is inevitable. The thing is to DIRECT that change to where you want it to go, and OWS will NEVER get that done until they get organized, direction, and settle on some issue or the other. Just flinging crap out there by the handful does NOTHING beyond spattering the walls.

No way in hell I'll throw in my lot with such chaotic dysfunctionality. This is why I offer suggestions on how to become functional, how to have some sort of affirmative effect.

It is increasingly apparent that "affirmative effect" is not what they're after, after all!



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


That's pretty arrogant to declare a thread failed.



It's pretty Naive to believe it has legitimacy.




I think the failure in this thread lies at pretty obvious feet.


You're telling me sister, agreed.


Here is the biggest part of the failure. There is all this anger, outright disgust and scorn directed to Occupy and anyone on ATS who participates or supports, so much so that it over-rides anger against police brutality.


No, Actually I don't subscribe to your attempt at polarization.

I myself can be at odds with Both and I am at odds with both.



C'mon boys, aint you had enough fun yet?


This is a serious topic and should be treated as such IMO.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by -W1LL
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


there is no proof of that just as there is no proof these black hooded rock and piss throwing OWS protesters werent paid to make the movement look bad.


So what you are saying then is its everyone elses fault...


not at all we are all responsible... my point with that sentence I should have made clear...

. is we are focusing on all the bad of each side there are good cops out there most officers are the same goes with the protestors the majority are protesting peacefully.

their goals are clear some seem confused by them or want more goals such as end to the war and all that but the wars will end when we get those in power who are sending us to war out of power.

we have been at war since vietnam the protests back then did nothing yet some call those protests more organized and successful, when in fact nothing has changed.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
You state Montana as your location? Are you even American? If so, are you that disassociated with the US that you feel apart from the rest of us? If so, wouldn't that constitute a certain level of bias?

If not, Couldn't this thread and your stance be considered the postings of an outside agitator just stirring the pot?


Everyone has an equal right and even an obligation to the country to speak their word. Trying to brand someone as a so called outsider hurts the flow of politics and sociology. Trying to declare someone an outsider, while using your status or reputation to do so, is a lot of why this country is on the verge of being a failure. Just like ATS has given you too much clout, the country has given too much clout to certain public figures and organizations.



posted on Nov, 21 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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Wait, what, 4 people have died protesting the government in the usa?

Why are you still protesting non-violently?

Theyre just gonna call your bluff and beat you down over and over unless someone takes some real action.

But if COD8 and Skrim are to important to miss...





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