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Americans. How can you stand not having proper public health?

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posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
This is one area where I run the potential of being kicked out of good-standing as a conservative Republican. lol

There is absolutely no "right" to any form of health care system whatsoever.

BUT, with that fact stated, there have been two unacceptable trends take place in America - ok, make that three:

1. Medicine becoming big business due to the "big business" that insurance is.
2. Every one losing their brains and forgetting what insurance was for. Originally, medical insurance was for catastrophic events...not every time you stub your toe.
3. America's belief - due to 1 and 2 above - that "exceptional measures" should be expected. No they shouldn't. If you're a motorcycle rider without a helmet and half your head is gone this is the care you should get: Complete pain relief until you're gone. If you're 94 years old and you're dying...you should have complete pain relief until you're dead. America has come to believe that every single death should be prevented or delayed as long as dollarly possible - and even when it isn't dollarly possible - then the non-pay on the extreme measures gets sunk back into the "big business" goal of profit and the rest of us have to pay.

I don't really care what the "failures" of a national health care system are. Most likely most of them are inconveniences, and loss of the un-needed "extreme measures". If the U.S. health care cost problem is ever to be addressed and FIXED - it must be a complete overhaul that moves away from insurance companies, and toward a nationalized health care system.

We'll get better doctors that way too - they'll go into medicine because they want to, not because of the mansion they're working for.


I read your post, read it backwards, viewed it in a mirror, ran it through a translator (swahili and latin) and cannot find a "non" Republican/Conservative issue save your solution (which tells me that the true nature of the healthcare issue, yes issue, not crisis has not been fully realized), which reflects a "it's too big, only the government can handle it" mentality. Do you want the "DMV" to gate keep your healthcare? I don't. The thought of Americas healthcare being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator is not in the publics best interest. We already have a government hospital system, the VA hospitals, go there, talk to the poor guys that have to wait all day and get treated like cattle. See how happy they are with the bounty of free healthcare (note: Im a veteran, and I think its an outrage how we treat our finest), they are not. Go to a Shriners Hospital for Children (yes, Im a Shriner, so Im biased but see for yourself), the care they receive is completely without charge, and is done without any government funding, and is the best any child could receive.

If you want to eliminate a point of waste within our healthcare system, review tort reform. The lawyers (John Edwards) that prey upon the physicians and healthcare facilities are largely responsible for both increased costs, and the availability of certain specialties (ObGyn, NeuroVascular, and Anesthesia). Hitting homeruns in court has curtailed the ability of the healthcare industry to effectively manage costs (liability, and malpractice insurance), and has directly impacted the public at large.




posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 10:11 AM
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MM

We do NOT agree. LOL

By the way, I have a father that gets his healthcare through VA. And save a some times longer than wanted wait, he gets good healthcare.

You can call it "dumbing down" if you want to. I do not agree with that assessment. I also don't agree with the twist you placed in that my comments are from a "it got so big the government needs to handle it". Nope. It's gotten so corrupt and so out-of-control that it needs regulating and quite frankly, from a moral standpoint, humiliated back to the hippocratic oath.

There are already forms of "socialized" medicine in the U.S. They are called state or city-owned hospitals. I think you may not realize the extent to which privatized hospitals are out of control.

Do you realize that if your child, tomorrow, say choked on a tiddly-wink and went into an oxygen-deprived coma, and was placed in a privately-owned hospital, and you either 1. didn't have insurance, or 2. exceeded your insurance, you would lose your home to that hospital if you couldn't pay your bill?

It reeks like a five-day old fish. There's no justifying the wanton excess that is blatantly displayed at the lavish private hospitals these days. Guess what, I don't need to walk into a hospital that has a front lobby that looks like a museum. I just need adequate health care.

The whole thing disgusts me - and worse yet, I've got worse "doctors" than I had when I was young and it was just an old country doctor who sometimes even provided services in trade.

BAH! You can have ever bit of...but odds are you can't afford it.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
There is absolutely no "right" to any form of health care system whatsoever.


That pretty much sums it up.

Like someone else said I can not find it in the Constitution anywhere.

I have been around for a long time and since the government has become involved in health care the prices have skyrocketed.... Why you ask?

I would imagain that it is mainly just an excuse for a few compines owned by or paid off from, our wonderful caring Goverenment officals to make HUGE profits off our tax money.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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Does the American Constitution says you have the right to live?



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by ArMaP
Does the American Constitution says you have the right to live?



Yes

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness

It doesnt say the government should have to pay for it



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:36 PM
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I'm not so sure that America has no affordable health care. For years when my children were small, I had no health insurance, but we went thought the the county health dept. for all out health needs, operations, etc....it worked on a sliding scale, we received good care. I now have wonderful insurance, but have still from time to time, used it through the clinics...now the VA..that sucks big time. DH is a vet and has a TBI...the care the VA gives is terrible! You wait all day, never see the same physician twice...very poor care.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:54 PM
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I lost insurance when i turned 19. So if i want to go for a checkup i need to cough up $150, and god hope i don't get another sinus infection because that will cost me for the antibiotics.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by ArMaP
Does the American Constitution says you have the right to live?



Yes

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness

It doesnt say the government should have to pay for it


You beat me too it, hommie!


The reason we dont have socialized medicine is:

1. We are not socialists
2. less govornment is better govornment, Americans such as I believe
3. Our healthcare system has problems, but its problems people can work out.
4. We like private healtcare better.
5. We do not want socialized medicine
6. I have found Americans really do not like going to the docotor, and will do so only when thier condition has gotten out of hand.

I speak as an unemployed person who has no healthcare insurance, and I am American. Do i want socialized medicine? Hell no! I still can get treated if I am sick. We have many clinics and doctors who will take me on a sliding scale. When i lived in California, I went to county hospitals. I ended up waiting forever for healthcare, even in emergency rooms, but I got my ailments treated. (I had kidney stones and panic problems. Didnt cost me squat when I was working).

Now, Europeans may THINK they have "free" heal;thcare, but judging my your paycheck stubs, you dont. The amount in taxes you pay. Americans actually pay less for thier healthcare. We may pay out of pocket, but the costs? Alot less than having the govornment suck out half of our hard earned money to pay for socialized medicine.

Now, in my travels in Europe, i was surprised. The waiting lists were disturbing. My boyfriends mother, they live in Essex in England, waited months for lung cancer test results, and even longer for her surgery.

My mother by comparison, was homeless for a time, she has something called COPD. When she got so sick from it and was hospitalized, the state finally put her on social security. She just had her cancer surgery, is currently being taken care of financially by the state. her medicines, treatments, are all paid for by the state.

But the rest of us healthy enough to work for a living? Americans dont believe in free handouts. Unless your situation is dire, if you can work and function normally, you can pay for medical insurance.

When i was employed, my medical insurance was only 35 bucks every pay check. Hardly any out of pocket expenses. Only 70 bucks a month. And I never had a waiting list by any docotor I saw, I was treated when i made my appointments.

I do not run to the doctor for sniffles and other things. Colds and flus I allow to run thier course, which is better than unecessary anti biotics. i suffer from severe depression, and severe, but rare, panic attacks. I am able to get my meds if I need them.

Right now work is hard to find, but if I get sick, I still can get medical care. I am yet to hear of anyone really dying because a hospital kicked them out cuz they were broke. Sure, youll end up with a big big from the hospital, but law requires people with medical emergencies be treated regardless of ability to pay.

And when you consider that 50 million Americans with no health care insurance is pretty small (1/6 of the population.), and consider that many of those probably dont need it........

I am thankful we do not have socialism, socialized medical care, ect.

I will agree, however, the VA system is an embarssment. Way to treat the people who got thier limbs blown off and sanity destroyed in a foreign war started by thier govornment.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Now, in my travels in Europe, i was surprised. The waiting lists were disturbing. My boyfriends mother, they live in Essex in England, waited months for lung cancer test results, and even longer for her surgery.


England isn't representive for European healthcare systems. I am aware of their problems and it's better at least here in Germany. I am not saying it is perfect but for social healthcare so far the best system I am aware of.

You are right about the fact that it isn't that free at all and money wents straight away from the paychecks. System is changing at the current point and I hope for good.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Now, in my travels in Europe, i was surprised. The waiting lists were disturbing. My boyfriends mother, they live in Essex in England, waited months for lung cancer test results, and even longer for her surgery.

Isnt that still better than the 50 million Americans who couldnt afford that surgery and would probably die because of it?
She could have had private healthcare insurance just like in the US if she wanted quicker result but at least it was done in the end.

Waiting to have surgery is better than not having it done at all.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by bigal66
thats wht most of the world runs to the us for advanced surgery-because most of your lousy public health care is garbage.

you non americans need to learn to use soap and wash each day and wipe your butts-you all smell remember cleanliness is close to holiness
How rude. We all know where your head's at.
We're discussing available medical programs in US,**
**, not the available quality of care. If you are insured or have tons of money, everyone knows we can find the best doctors in the world.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 12:18 AM
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The Hippocratic oath, in case you are unaware, is taken by doctors when they graduate and sets out moral and ethical obligations of doctors to their patients vis-a-vis the sanctity of human life, relief of suffering etc


THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH
I swear by Apollo the physician, by sculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgement, the following Oath.


"To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; to look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art if they so desire without fee or written promise; to impart to my sons and the sons of the master who taught me and the disciples who have enrolled themselves and have agreed to the rules of the profession, but to these alone the precepts and the instruction. I will prescribe regimen for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgement and never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death. Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion. But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art. I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art. In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves. All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal. If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."


This Oath that all Dr. of Medicine take is older than our Constitution and and stems from the land where Democracy was born. On the other hand oaths no longer seem to carry any validity.
The oath has been changed considerably over the last 50 years and now has had many changes and forms, depending where in western civilization you exist. I found the below site interesting for it deals with morality and ethics. Here you go.

Indeed, a growing number of physicians have come to feel that the Hippocratic Oath is inadequate to address the realities of a medical world that has witnessed huge scientific, economic, political, and social changes, a world of legalized abortion, physician-assisted suicide, and pestilences unheard of in Hippocrates' time. Some doctors have begun asking pointed questions regarding the oath's relevance: In an environment of increasing medical specialization, should physicians of such different stripes swear to a single oath? With governments and health-care organizations demanding patient information as never before, how can a doctor maintain a patient's privacy? Are physicians morally obligated to treat patients with such lethal new diseases as AIDS or the Ebola virus? "

www.pbs.org...

Personaly I feel that if the Military can lose 3 trillion $, as they did last year. We can have free medical attention and free education at all levels. You do realize that all that misplaced money was U.S. tax dollars taken from your pocket one way or another.

And here is another link just to give an idea of where money goes and humaity doesn't. Keep in mind this is merely on weapons


www.defenselink.mil...

Have a good day,

Tut

p.s. if one cares to go to last link take it to google and in midle of page hit http in purple

[edit on 7-9-2004 by tututkamen]



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 02:21 AM
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You realize in a socialist healthcare society such as the poster that started this topic mentioned has waiting lists for surgery, especially heart transplants and many people die from things like this. And to think you won't pay for this "free" healthcare is crazy! Our taxes will go up astronomically for you to pay for someone elses healthcare. Myself, it's already too much. Government is too much in our lives already and needs to get smaller. But it won't, don't we know it especially heh.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Now, Europeans may THINK they have "free" heal;thcare, but judging my your paycheck stubs, you dont. The amount in taxes you pay. Americans actually pay less for thier healthcare. We may pay out of pocket, but the costs? Alot less than having the govornment suck out half of our hard earned money to pay for socialized medicine.

Now, in my travels in Europe, i was surprised. The waiting lists were disturbing. My boyfriends mother, they live in Essex in England, waited months for lung cancer test results, and even longer for her surgery.


Skadi, this is the exact point I tried to make as well you did a much better job at it. Every buy gas in Europe? The income taxes are not much to look at either. The bottom line is no system is free. At least here we have some choices in the matter. The wait for services is pretty bad, and if they have caps ona particular procedure, and they have done reached the number for the year, you are SOL. The vaunted model, the French system, allowed 14,000 people to die last summer.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 03:54 AM
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This is one of those topics that really burn me up.

I don't have any sort of acceptable coverage at work, seeing as how i have no real full time job...

And So, I'm forced to pay out the EAR for insurance.

Get this:

I have no eye, or dental insurance, nor can I recieve benefit for normal checkups...

So, I have now Accident insurance.

I pay 110 dollars every 4 months to get this minimal coverage.
And that's as much as I can afford.

So, about 27.50 a month for a 'just in case' insurance that doesn't cover anywhere close to half the costs, even if I were hospitalized.

I'm very careful not to do anything dangerous, to say the least. It really upsets me that my country, supposedly the 'best' in the world, whatever that means, can't provide inexpensive, and EFFECTIVE (key word) healthcare to the masses.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 04:06 AM
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The government really has no obligation to, even in extreme cases. If they can do it without waiting lists and taxes going higher go for it. But otherwise I like having the million dollar coverage I have right now.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 04:24 AM
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why dont you guys simply give some of the taxmoney that the weaponindustri get to hospitals instead?



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 04:26 AM
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Ah, that's a easy one: We are fighting a war (a war we are in lets not get into in here) and uh yeah that's the primary concern in the governments eyes besides power. In the end that question should be asked to the government, not the US Citizens as we don't control the country.



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by TheOtaku
Ah, that's a easy one: We are fighting a war (a war we are in lets not get into in here) and uh yeah that's the primary concern in the governments eyes besides power. In the end that question should be asked to the government, not the US Citizens as we don't control the country.



Well, thats true...but the government is elected by citizens?
I know its not that simple..but basically it is..



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 06:10 AM
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Well, there's a few so far who have piped up and said the problems in the healthcare system prohibits them from seeking care when they need it. well, those guidelines are not hitting everyone who needs help. So, what you have in the US is a system where the taxpayers are all pitching in to build and maintain this really good medical care, plus also paying for the care of many.....(especially if you consider what goes overseas to be given away free), but many who are footing the bill don't seem to have access to it. It's been said that if being an uninsured american was considered a disease it would be the third leading cause of death. Well, show me in the constitution where it gives the power to decide whom among the needy is deserving of that care and who isn't. Who is deserving of life and who isn't. And, well, it seems to me that the government's actions just may have helped inflate the cost of insurance, drs visits,, ect...so in effect some of those who don't have access just very well might have, if the gov't had had a hands off approach. So, what the gov't did was decide that that life was less of importance than someone else, and they took from them to give to their preferred citizens. To me there is something very unconstitutional about the thing. There comes a point where just too many in the population lose the access and yet still are footing the bills for others. IN no way should the taxpayers be paying for services and commodities, or a lifestyle to the "poor" and "needy" that isn't being enjoyed by themselves!



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