Anti-OWS threads reach for everything they can to denouce the movement.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Drezden

That video is the worst/violent/aggressive OWS has been. In the video no one was hurt, the protestors vocally and physically denounce the actions of that very small handful of people who were vandalizing and harassing. Oakland has had more negative OWS moments than any other city. I can watch a video of a U.S. soldier throwing a puppy or shooting a civilian.. does that mean I believe U.S. soldiers as a whole are terrorists, violent and cruel? No I don't.. but with the poor logic you use, that connection could easily be made.

Not a valid comparison. Here's why:

The OWS has a few bad people. The US military ALSO has a few bad people.

The difference? The US Army has Fort Leavenworth. The OWS has nothing, No method for sequestration of the bad out of the "movement".

Oh please, I've been on Fort Leavenworth and it just doesn't match up to state and federal jails and prisons which are all available for protestors... some protestors are currently occupying jails at this moment. If anything the military is shielded by having their own sentencing system.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Okay, well I'm glad your not feeling like a nobody anymore. We are never going to agree or change stances. I still believe OWS is worth supporting. If all of these people who criticize OWS, who share concern over the same government/corporate corruption, actually joined OWS and helped put it on track instead of trying to kill it quicker.

I've said this before, the corruption of our corporatist government is too pervasive and progressively malignant to pass up OWS. There are some things that concern me about OWS, but honestly people we will not get another chance to protest like this for a long time, people will se it accomplished nothing, the general uninformed public will go back to being apathetic... and our country will surely be doomed if it keeps speeding up on the path its on.

You are worrying about the protestors inconveniencing people.. People are going to be pretty darn inconvenienced when our economy crashes and or world war breaks out.

We don't have the luxury to be nit picky with our large scale protests... before outside forces completely take it over.

Originally posted by Drezden

Oh please, I've been on Fort Leavenworth and it just doesn't match up to state and federal jails and prisons which are all available for protestors... some protestors are currently occupying jails at this moment. If anything the military is shielded by having their own sentencing system.

Kinda missed the whole point there, Sparky. The military is capable of self-policing, and OWS is not.

They can't even manage to throw the disruptive out from within their midst.

Well, to be honest, they can't really manage to do much at all.

Gotta have some sort of structure to do that.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Drezden

Oh please, I've been on Fort Leavenworth and it just doesn't match up to state and federal jails and prisons which are all available for protestors... some protestors are currently occupying jails at this moment. If anything the military is shielded by having their own sentencing system.

Kinda missed the whole point there, Sparky. The military is capable of self-policing, and OWS is not.

They can't even manage to throw the disruptive out from within their midst.

Well, to be honest, they can't really manage to do much at all.

Gotta have some sort of structure to do that.

Sure thing Chief. How do you propose one private citizen police another private citizen? Should we tackle someone who is defecating on a sidewalk? Do we physically remove another person from public land? You're being silly wanting protestors to kick other people off public land?

I don't know why you think the protest isn't policing itself. They have done the most they can within the law, they physically restrain aggressive/violent people, they report illegal activity to the police, and they consistently denounce vandalism and violence when it arises.

I'm glad I don't live in a country where private citizens can decide which other private citizens are aloud on public land. Vandals and violent/aggressive people are not apart of organizing or planning, I'm not sure what more you want the protestors to do to exclude these people short of breaking the law?

Back to the military sideline.. they police themselves.. but we still have soldiers raping little girls in Japan and other places every so often, we always have soldiers being drunk in public, urinating in public, being extremely loud and obnoxious, and getting into fights when they go off base in other countries. In some countries and cities U.S. military bases are a very tense issue because of the soldier's horrible behavior off base. (Of course it's not ever soldier, just like it's not every protestor)

In the same way the military cannot prevent all misbehavior, neither can OWS.

Originally posted by Drezden

Sure thing Chief. How do you propose one private citizen police another private citizen? Should we tackle someone who is defecating on a sidewalk? Do we physically remove another person from public land? You're being silly wanting protestors to kick other people off public land?

The same way the rest of us do it. We're not special or "super humans". If you can't control those people, you can't control your "movement", or the face it presents to the rest of us, so you're just going to have to live with that face until you fix it. "Public land" has nothing to do with it. Zucotti Park is not public land, it's privately owned. What DOES have something to do with it is he FACT that OWS is allowing this activity in their name. WHERE it happens is immaterial in associating it with OWS. The fact that OWS isn't disavowing or disowning the inimical associations being made speaks far more loudly than location.

I don't know why you think the protest isn't policing itself. They have done the most they can within the law, they physically restrain aggressive/violent people, they report illegal activity to the police, and they consistently denounce vandalism and violence when it arises.

I'm not familiar with New York law. Around here we have far more power to refuse associations under the law. we can speak up, we can make ourselves heard and LOUDLY denounce those who would try to associate with us against our will.

That's over and above simply detaining miscreants for arrest by the police.

I'm glad I don't live in a country where private citizens can decide which other private citizens are aloud on public land.

me too. Why are you protesting that sort country?

Vandals and violent/aggressive people are not apart of organizing or planning, I'm not sure what more you want the protestors to do to exclude these people short of breaking the law?

Doesn't matter. According toOWS supporters here, there IS no "organizing" or "planning". That means anything goes, and these vandals and such appear perfectly capable of making their own plans and carrying them out in the name of OWS. OWS has done nothing to dispel that or expel them. You don't have to break any laws to speak up or exclude bad influences from your own ranks, yet OWS seems unwilling to do that.

Back to the military sideline.. they police themselves.. but we still have soldiers raping little girls in Japan and other places every so often, we always have soldiers being drunk in public, urinating in public, being extremely loud and obnoxious, and getting into fights when they go off base in other countries. In some countries and cities U.S. military bases are a very tense issue because of the soldier's horrible behavior off base. (Of course it's not ever soldier, just like it's not every protestor)

In the same way the military cannot prevent all misbehavior, neither can OWS.

Who said anything about prevention? The military DEALS with those incidents. OWS tries to ignore them, or deny that they happen.

OWS wears those incidents like a mask, whether they like it or not, by not expelling the miscreants.

reply to post by nenothtu


I don't know where to begin, you want protestors to denounce the crazies that protest under OWS through courts? Legally force certain people to not be able to claim OWS association. Yes this leaderless organization can so easily go to court. Which individual who isn't a leader of OWS is going to take a violent anarchist to court? Who is going to deal with legal fees? That is too much wasted resources when the problems are not worth the money.

You point to the park as private land, okay very well, does that change anything? A private citizen cannot force another private citizen off private land that neither of them own.

A few people can be extremist and build molotov cocktails.. but tell me how many protestors do you think would make weapons with them if they found out (none have), or how many protestors would stick around if someone fire bombed macy's? maybe the 5 people who did it, but the rest of the protestors wouldn't condone or support those things.. it's not in the general spirit of OWS.

The MSM bias in your words is profound, and if you don't watch MSM (just read negative OWS articles from MSM websites posted on online), well gosh.

The military thing is just strange now.. OWS members who break the law get arrested or ticketed (some even get arrested and ticketed who weren't breaking the law).. if someone in the military breaks the law they are punished as well. How is OWS wearing bad things like a mask? That is a really bizarre thing to say because it makes absolutely no sense.. it's the opposite of what OWS is doing.. they denounce the bad stuff, they don't roll around reveling in it.

Originally posted by Drezden
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I don't know where to begin, you want protestors to denounce the crazies that protest under OWS through courts? Legally force certain people to not be able to claim OWS association. Yes this leaderless organization can so easily go to court. Which individual who isn't a leader of OWS is going to take a violent anarchist to court? Who is going to deal with legal fees? That is too much wasted resources when the problems are not worth the money.

What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about going to court? Courts mess up a lot more than they straighten out, and I would think going to court would be the LAST means anyone would try to use to disassociate themselves from rabble,

If you can't get 'em out without getting a court involved, you've really got no business standing up for yourself anywhere else, either,

You point to the park as private land, okay very well, does that change anything? A private citizen cannot force another private citizen off private land that neither of them own.

Must be some pretty weak citizens where you live, Seriously - that was a response to your claim that it was public land. I personally don't care what land I'm on, I'm not going to associate myself with people who will harm me and ruin my good name. OWS apparently doesn't have that sort of concern for their name.

A few people can be extremist and build molotov cocktails.. but tell me how many protestors do you think would make weapons with them if they found out (none have),

Don't know, don't care to find out.

or how many protestors would stick around if someone fire bombed macy's? maybe the 5 people who did it, but the rest of the protestors wouldn't condone or support those things.. it's not in the general spirit of OWS.

"Stick around"? You mean they would RUN FROM TROUBLE?

1) Good protestors do not run from trouble, they PROTEST IT.

2) Good citizens do not run from trouble, they CONQUER IT.

The MSM bias in your words is profound, and if you don't watch MSM (just read negative OWS articles from MSM websites posted on online), well gosh.

Nope, don't watch it, and I don't limit my reading to partisan rants. I don't read MSM website at all. Well, gosh. Where does that leave that argument? I KNOW it wasn't a transparent and timid attempt to discredit me, now was it?

The military thing is just strange now.. OWS members who break the law get arrested or ticketed (some even get arrested and ticketed who weren't breaking the law).. if someone in the military breaks the law they are punished as well. How is OWS wearing bad things like a mask? That is a really bizarre thing to say because it makes absolutely no sense.. it's the opposite of what OWS is doing.. they denounce the bad stuff, they don't roll around reveling in it.

OK, I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse. I've told you a couple of times now, SPECIFICALLY what I mean. I'm beginning to think you are deliberately misunderstanding it, since I told you SPECIFICALLY what I mean, a couple of times now. I'll say it one more time, and then I'm done with that, The military SELF POLICES. They take care of their own messes. OWS does NOT self police - they try to get other folks to take care of their messes.

I'm not comparing military jails to civilian jails, I'm not comparing MPs to civilian police, I'm comparing an organization that handles it's own problems with one who whines and thinks I just shouldn't associate those people they are willingly hanging out with to them.

Gee, OWS welcomes all with open arms, then spends the next two months saying "I'm not with stupid over there, I just invited him to join my club, but he ain't a card carrying member or anything!"

reply to post by Drezden

A few people can be extremist and build molotov cocktails.. but tell me how many protestors do you think would make weapons with them if they found out (none have), or how many protestors would stick around if someone fire bombed macy's? maybe the 5 people who did it, but the rest of the protestors wouldn't condone or support those things.. it's not in the general spirit of OWS.

Drezden - I've been following your posts in this thread for a bit now

boy - can you take a lot of crap :-)

why waste a rational argument on people who rationalize? (I know why - I'm just funnin' ya)

They just so wish this would turn violent - it's like they can't wait...and what does that say really?

but it's just their fantasy so far

if this protest keeps up - it will happen and they'll get their wish. It won't be a surprise - 'cause guess what? the protesters are human. And to some extent you could argue they're being provoked - because a violent demonstration would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people

you and I (and most people) realize that - but they're using a hypothetical situation to try and win an argument that's not winnable - because we're not psychic.

oh, no - what if someone does something really, really bad? what if someone uses weapons? We're already knee deep in human waste and spit - god knows what these people are capable of... what if, what if?!!!!

well, when 'what if' hit's the fan, that would really suck - just like it sucks when anyone anywhere in any place for any reason does something horrible

and of course - if something happens - that means all the thousands of people involved in the protests also suck - stands to reason, doesn't it?

freaking communist barbarians - what else could anyone expect from these stupid, left-leaning savages? :-)

a thousand stars for fighting the good fight

I love your avatar

:-)

Originally posted by nenothtu
What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about going to court? Courts mess up a lot more than they straighten out, and I would think going to court would be the LAST means anyone would try to use to disassociate themselves from rabble,

If you can't get 'em out without getting a court involved, you've really got no business standing up for yourself anywhere else, either

You said: "I'm not familiar with New York law. Around here we have far more power to refuse associations under the law. we can speak up, we can make ourselves heard and LOUDLY denounce those who would try to associate with us against our will."

So no, you didn't mention courts, but I've been playing 20 questions with you trying to break through your vagueness on how OWS should remove the undesirables within their camps. We already established that the protestors are vocally and physically denouncing bad associations and acts. When you mentioned refusing associations under the law I thought you meant court.

Please just flat out say what you mean instead of all this vagueness. In your mind what must the protestors do about the bad associations to make it respectable in your eyes?

Must be some pretty weak citizens where you live, Seriously - that was a response to your claim that it was public land. I personally don't care what land I'm on, I'm not going to associate myself with people who will harm me and ruin my good name. OWS apparently doesn't have that sort of concern for their name.

Okay, so you aren't given any specifics, just more vagueness and all I can do is guess at what you mean. You are implying that a person should be able to physically remove another person from private land that neither of them own.. just because they have communist ideals, or maybe describe themselves as anarchists? That is beyond absurd and not lawful. You are suggesting using physical force to remove someone just because their thoughts, words, or actions don't line up with the rest of the group? It's not that OWS doesn't have 'that sort of concern for their name', it's that OWS has respect for civil liberties. Even if someone was arrested for vandalism or something else, that still isn't grounds for their physical removal if they came back to the camp. It wouldn't be legal to physically remove them.

Again I stress that these people do not have a significant impact on the direction of OWS or the overall actions of the protestors. They aren't organizing anything. They are just there.

Don't know, don't care to find out.

Deny ignorance.

"Stick around"? You mean they would RUN FROM TROUBLE?

1) Good protestors do not run from trouble, they PROTEST IT.

2) Good citizens do not run from trouble, they CONQUER IT.

Being at the scene of a violent crime as its happening is not the place to protest it. You'd just be in the way of the police and firefighters, and at worst you could be mistaken for someone who is supporting this violent action even if you're yelling out against it.

Nope, don't watch it, and I don't limit my reading to partisan rants. I don't read MSM website at all. Well, gosh. Where does that leave that argument? I KNOW it wasn't a transparent and timid attempt to discredit me, now was it?

Please list the sources you are using to get the information about all the horrible things OWS is up to.

OK, I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse. I've told you a couple of times now, SPECIFICALLY what I mean. I'm beginning to think you are deliberately misunderstanding it, since I told you SPECIFICALLY what I mean, a couple of times now. I'll say it one more time, and then I'm done with that, The military SELF POLICES. They take care of their own messes. OWS does NOT self police - they try to get other folks to take care of their messes.

You are being absurd. The military receives trillions of dollars, it is extremely powerful and organized, and you want to hold OWS to the same standards of self-policing? OWS is a civilian protest with much less funding and organization. Civilians go through public courts and are policed by .. the police! They aren't "getting other folks to take care of their messes" as you say. It's the law.

You being able to compare the military's self-policing efficiency to OWS reveals the depths of your bias. The illogicality of that comparison is too profound to accept outside of an extremely biased context.

Gee, OWS welcomes all with open arms, then spends the next two months saying "I'm not with stupid over there, I just invited him to join my club, but he ain't a card carrying member or anything!"

Calling for citizens who are concerned about the corporate corruption in this country to join OWS and protest is different than inviting anarchists or violent people to break laws. The movement showed the clear intention of a peaceful protest from the start.

reply to post by Drezden


You win.

Hug anyone you want to, but be not surprised when other folks don't approve of the associations you choose.

This is an issue that will never be resolved between the two of us. I have no problem dissociating myself from people I don't want to associate with, and am having a really hard time comprehending what it is you seem to find so difficult about that. So hard, in fact, that you seem hell bent on involving and invoking courts, police powers, and "trillions of dollars" ala the military.

It's really not all that involved, and I see no reason to drag such complications into it. Looks a lot like a smoke screen from this vantage point. There's really nothing at all difficult about handling your own mess.

So hang out with whomever you choose, but understand that those associates are not going to win you any brownie points with the populace.

ETA: After thinking about it a bit more, it occurs to me that OWS had no trouble at all excluding myself and others like me who tried to offer them helpful strategies, but now they want to turn around and say "gee, we just can't seem to get rid of these trouble making guys!" Well, they can get rid of me and people like me, but can't get rid of their trouble makers? Fine, that tells me quite a lot about OWS and it's real motivations.

See ya in the Spring.

reply to post by nenothtu


You are so dramatic. You have some deflection skills for sure. There aren't people like you at OWS because people like you don't want to be there. There are certainly middle class, white, republicans, who have rational ideas and constructive criticism that are accepted there.

People who use mass generalizations and come in with a negative attitude are not going to enjoy themselves.

To you OWS is hugging violent revolutionaries.. and trying to figure out how to get rid of them at the same time.

You are caught up in your own biased generalizations. OWS does NOT support violence.. that apparently isn't enough for you. You still made the comment the military can self police itself yet OWS cannot. You refrain from extrapolating on that.. and just tell me I have it wrong.

Any comparison between OWS and the military is impossible.. you know that comparison was silly.