Light Created from a Vacuum

reply to post by DangerDeath


I very much so like your idea's, and i wish someone could take them into serious consideration without asking for "proof" or "evidence". Especially the part about the laws of thermodynamics. There are many sections of our scientific understanding that are somewhat wrong, and based on complete subjective observation(which is fine by me, but not by sciences own standard which seeks an objective definition of reality)

So being that light is energy and they captured light from nothing then they have captured energy from what appears to be nothing.

Zero point? So does this show that we can in fact indeed harness energy from the "zero point"?

It was just a few photons yes but those few photons are still a measurable amount of energy nonetheless.

Also a question for the experts here. Does this violate any laws of thermal dynamics?

-Alien

reply to post by Alien Abduct


Was the law of thermodynamics actually meant to be a law for quantum mechanics or just visable detectable everyday matter and energy?

"Relatively little energy is therefore required in order to excite them out of their virtual state. In principle, one could also create other particles from vacuums such as electrons or protons, but that would require a lot more energy."

Can anyone say Star Trek replicator?

I truely feel this may be a major turning point for our society! Many on this site would be comfortable saying we are very close to the end of the "big oil" age and cheap renewable energy is just around the corner. Scientists have already created new elements from existing ones. If energy consumption is the only thing lacking for this technology to take off then hold on for the ride, because things are about to get drastically different.

Once perfected, this has the potential for us to theoretically create any resource we could possibly need out of the vaccum of space. This is no longer something of science fiction! With the excelleration development in technology has taken, we're looking at this happening in our or our childrens lifetimes!

Now, a shout out my conspiracy fans reading...what's the chances of TPTB allowing this to go any further than the lab?

reply to post by Dagar


You took the words out of my mouth Dagar.

My thinking exactly.

This discovery breaks most, if not all traditional laws of physics, on top of the second Neutrino 'faster than light' experiments validating the first experiment.

The neutrinos were again sent, but answering critics, they packaged the neutrinos into a tighter packet, and the result was the same as the first time. Neutrinos are faster (slightly) than light.

And now we have what is for all intents and purposes, ZERO POINT ENERGY and not only proof of it, but useful extraction of the energy in the form of light. Solar panels that produce their own light perhaps? Greenhouse panes that self illuminate through the night?

But oh no...all the 'free energy loonies' are still loonies i assume, despite essentially proving that what they are harnessing in a great many of their devices and concepts is exactly what is being discussed in this thread, albeit extracted as a different form of energy.

If these 'virtual particle pairs' (that are lurking in the vacuum) are 'dark matter'... and dark matter is 83% of the matter in the universe... then there is a very substantial amount of mass-energy available there for use. I would guess the virtual particles in the vacuum, would seek to maintain a stable distribution throughout the universe. So, using the virtual particles anywhere... allows more to replace them. Like pumping water from a ground-well... allows more water to flow in, to replace the water that was pumped out.

My estimate is 3 to 4 decades but what what several wonderful thinkers have told me energy collection, generation, and distribution will depend on two essential technologies; gravity displacement and space collection and transmission back to Earth. First, inevitibly, the most secret propulsion technologies must be commercialized and grav displacement drives will enable large payloads to go into orbit. Chemical propulsion is not the future. Second, the photons and electromagnetic energy will need to be collected and retransmitted back to Earth. Obviously, it would entail some kind of inductive capacitance through the atmosphere and I guess you would have to invert in in space and send it back as either microwave or something else. There would be an unlimited supply of energy and a new era of Human progress.

Anyway, the black physics and its genie is slowly coming out of the bottle. It will be awhile before some of these discoveries and black government projects find their way into civilain societies but the future is always interesting;-)

Doesn't this discovery violate the physics theorem that the universe is a closed system i.e. no energy from the outside can enter the system? aren't the photons coming from the vacuum extra energy?

how could it be extra energy when it is already there just in a form we cannot readily detect or see. Furthermore from a universal perspect there is no such thing as nothing. Zero is a concept we just made up.

Originally posted by masterp
Doesn't this discovery violate the physics theorem that the universe is a closed system i.e. no energy from the outside can enter the system? aren't the photons coming from the vacuum extra energy?

It does
Second law of Thermodynamics is a wishful thinking for the politicians. They only wish they were untouchable. I'm afraid, instead of entropy, there is actually revolution. But they wish people stayed inactive and impotent while they are doing "their thingy".

For a system to be proclaimed isolated, you have to pretend that it wasn't created by some force and believe it existed in eternity. In my opinion, things in this Universe appear and disappear, and no laws formulated by humans are in control of that. This experiment proves that even the First law of Thermodynamics is not valid. The reason it is not valid is because the energy of Universe is immeasurable, that is, we don't know how much energy there is outside the boundaries of which we are aware of. For this same reason, isolated system isn't really isolated, because at some point it is affected by the absolute.

Originally posted by Frostmore

Originally posted by DangerDeath
The whole experiment is about revision of physical laws as we were made to believe to be for real. They are not for real and the Laws of Thermodynamics are fake. That is the significance of this experiment.

The laws of physics can't be fake, they are just the best model we have to describe observable phenomena. There is no scientist trying to deceive you, just a model that may or not describe the world correctly. New observations are made that contradict a model? You revise it or make a new one. Even today, physicists use models that they know are partly wrong, but they are good at describing certain aspects, so they still use them until something better comes along.

@DangerDeath: What about theories that describe the universe as existing in a matter-antimatter equilibrium before big bang? This explains how it could burst out from nothing as quantum fluctuations disturbed the balance.

You said it yourself. But observable phenomena is not all there is. Our cognition cannot be observed by senses. Our knowledge acts immediately. You don't need 8 minutes plus to know or say something about the Sun. Force acts immediately. Force doesn't need time to act. It applies immediately. This is easily forgotten, and I think it is tendentiously forgotten. We are being fooled by someone, but it has been noticed.

Our laws are our interpretation, and from this comes conclusion that the Universe must be in accordance to our perception and how we interpret it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I personally think that the photons of light in the vacuum are breaking through higher dimensions or maybe an alternate universe. Coming from nothing does not make much sense to me.

"Nothing" is probably the not perceived. Absolute nothing is metaphysical, and it means that force can create things, but reason can't deal with it, because the absolute cannot be measured.

In reality, when we invent something, or come to conclusion with our knowledge, things do happen out of "nothing", because knowledge, as force, has the initiative amidst inert matter.

reply to post by DangerDeath


Laws of physics ONLY work because of two simple things..humans observed limited and primitive systems hundreds of years ago, and based on those limited observations and the reactions provoked from their experimentation, concluded that a set of constants, or laws, were universal.

The second reason these so called (and woefully outdated and inaccurate) laws have been observed to work 'as described' is the simplest one to grasp...we designed EVERY system in common usage on planet Earth ACCORDING to the bloody laws we ourselves created to explain limited and primitive observations!

IOW, of course the 'laws' appear to be correct...everything we have that is even remotely connected to them, are so BECAUSE of them!

Think of the 'laws' as a couch or sofa and any devices that have ever been designed that would previously have been 'governed' by the laws of physics as a house or building.

We have been building our houses and buildings, to fit around our couches and sofas instead of the other way around. Of course our devices 'prove' the laws correct, they were always designed to.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Dagar

 

Now ask how much energy went into getting those virtual photons to hang around long enough to measure them. The energy expended is far greater than that of the photons. Pulling them out of the vacuum, so-to-speak, violates nothing.

But if thermodynamics states that energy can't be destroyed, wouldn't this be like bringing new energy into the Universe? Regardless of how much energy they used to excite the virtual particles into becoming real, none of it would be destroyed. Perhaps maybe the energy is being transferred into the virtual particles, but if that were the case then they're not really pulling photons from nothing, they're using existing energy and turning it into photons.

The Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can't be created or destroyed, in a closed system, that it can only change states. Until now, we were talking about Classical Physics, where the closed system was either the Earth's biosphere, or the known Universe. I think it's time for science to address a bigger closed system, such as the Multiverse, and I'd like to think that the laws aren't violated even after a new paradigm is adopted.

We're used to playing on a small playground. Why not simply make the playground bigger?

reply to post by DangerDeath


Agreed DD.

And if i may say so, congrats on the use of the word 'tendentiously'!

First time i'd ever seen the word, so thanks for that.

Your thinking seems to be on a par with my own, judging from your post.

To boil it down, i'd say Human arrogance has been our biggest obstacle to progress, whether that is scientifically based arrogance, political, theological or personal.

It's this that has underpinned our biggest failure to imagine the fantastic, and then build it.

Originally posted by Lifthrasir

Anyway, this experiment is fascinating and I am very glad that this vacuum fluctuation phenomena has been, at least, observed and measured. Some say that this phenomena violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but I would hypothesize that these particles arise from either quantum reactions, the kind we haven't yet observed, or come from interactions that occur between universes on a quantum level. Personally, I hypothesize that matter and energy are transferred between universes all the time.

I'll agree with your hypothesis, and raise you one Multiverse. People seem to forget that we are all made up of quantum particles, cohesively bonded into what we describe as Reality. We are simply trying to "Backwards Engineer" our understanding of reality, from what we can observe, to the way things actually work.

Here's a simple thought problem:

We have bodies; which are made up of cells, which are made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of quarks, which are made up of?

We use the photon as the standard unit, and have for years. Why are all observations based on light? If there is no photonic activity, does that mean there are no quantum interactions going on? Hardly. In our attempts to see things backwards, I'd like to think that there will be new units introduced, outside of the ones used by classical physics, and I think we are only on the verge of understanding the true nature of the Multiverse around us. I think the new paradigm, once discovered, would lead to all sorts of whimsical devices, from teleportation to warp drives, or maybe perhaps we'll discover that we are "energy beings", and the need for such devices are quite frivolous indeed. Time will tell.

To everyone who still thinks this involves getting something from nothing:

The quantum vacuum is far from "nothing". You have to realize, this is the realm of quantum mechanics, not classical physics. In classical physics, the vacuum is the complete absence of any matter or energy. In quantum mechanics, however, the vacuum is merely the lowest quantum energy state of a system. It's far from empty - in fact, it possibly contains an infinite amount of "hidden" (sometimes called zero-point) energy.

Someone mentioned earlier the Dirac Sea. This was a classical concept which predicted an infinite sea of negative particles filling what we perceive as the empty vacuum.
The modern physical concept of this is the quantum vacuum, which is filled with momentary and spontaneous virtual particle-antiparticle pairs (in the case of photons, these pairs are two photons, as photons are their own antiparticles).
The particle pairs exist for only short periods - too short to detect them (we only know they exist because of the forces they produce). This is what allows their existence.

In fact, not only do these particle not violate any known laws of physics, but they exist because of a very significant law of physics - Heisenberg Uncertainty. This is also the law which limits their existence to a very brief period of time.

Virtual particles exist entirely within all known dimensions and laws of physics.

Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

Agreed DD.

And if i may say so, congrats on the use of the word 'tendentiously'!

First time i'd ever seen the word, so thanks for that.

Your thinking seems to be on a par with my own, judging from your post.

To boil it down, i'd say Human arrogance has been our biggest obstacle to progress, whether that is scientifically based arrogance, political, theological or personal.

It's this that has underpinned our biggest failure to imagine the fantastic, and then build it.

I have invested so much energy to deconstruct the official truths and tabus.
Scientifically speaking, we all know that corporations buy useful patents and drop them into the Mount Doom, because they cannot manipulate those inventions and discoveries into a measurable scam they call economic system.
And again, scientifically speaking, we don't have proofs for this So, it never happened... It's a conspiracy theory.

Why don't we have proofs? Because, starting with physics and other sciences in school, they teach us that laws ensure accord in nature as well as in society. Haven't seen that come true yet Still, they insist.
Now, that things are coming into open, the first thing authorities do is close schools and lay off teachers. Banks steal enormous amounts of money, they lay off people. They say it is recession It is not recession, it is thievery on a huge scale.

Even the little knowledge we are allowed, disappears at incredible speed. It has become obvious that global destruction of culture is taking place. Time goes slow, people are too busy to think, to read, have no time, no space... How is this possible? There is a force at work and gaining momentum as globalization submits all individual governments (not that they were ever really good and well intending), but this is going to be very tough on everyone.

We have been taught to must have tangible proofs. Is this really so? The system was created from which no one can get any proofs, and if one tries, he is the enemy of the system and is liquidated as terrorist. No truth can come out of the system. That is the truth and it needs no proof. And this proof thing applies to science as well. Because science is financed and controlled by people who won't allow truth to come out.

This experiment is very dangerous for the pathological autocrats. It proves that they can't control everything, and that something, very dangerous because it is pure energy, can burst out in an unpredictable place. It does apply to everything, including politics, because the analogy is more than analogy. That is the law which does not exist in our official science. But, it is right there and everyone can acknowledge it exists.

There is such thing as Maxwell's demon

en.wikipedia.org...

In the philosophy of thermal and statistical physics, Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment created by the Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell to "show that the Second Law of Thermodynamics has only a statistical certainty."[1] It demonstrates Maxwell's point by hypothetically describing how to violate the Second Law: A container is divided into two parts by an insulated wall, with a door that can be opened and closed by what came to be called "Maxwell's demon"; the demon opens the door to allow only the "hot" molecules of gas to flow through to a favored side of the chamber, causing that side to gradually heat up while the other side cools down.

Typical society of 1% vs. 99%