By contrast - OWS may be succeeding

Perhaps somewhat contrary to perceptions outlined by the OP in the we have failed thread, I submit to the forum this article that indicates OWS may well be succeeding. It appears that OWS is not only gaining some increased media exposure recently, but is gaining recognition that the movement is working (together with other developments granted) to thwart corporate greed by way of destabilising the markets.

From CNBC

Instability in Europe, protests in the streets of US cities and the implosion of a big Wall Street trading firm—it all adds up to be a good time for some investors to hang on the sidelines until the storms pass.

“All of these things are intertwined,” Dennis Gartman, the hedge fund manager and author of The Gartman Letter, wrote this morning. “Tear gas on the streets of Athens; students being arrested in the streets of NY… these are symptoms of economic sickness and the markets collectively came to that conclusion yesterday and voted, in virtual tandem one with the other, that the sidelines are a better place to be than involved.”

That mentality has taken over the markets lately, with trading volumes depressed as October’s near-record rally has given way to a cold wake-up call in November.

For Gartman, there are four things making the market too gut-wrenching for many investors: 1) Rioting in Greece against forced austerity measures; 2) worries that the Occupy Wall Street movement could swell into a larger market protest; 3) the collapse of MF Global, which went bankrupt after bets on European debt went sour; and 4) revelations that the European debt contagion could be moving to the steadier economies of France, Belgium and elsewhere.

Of particular concern is the OWS movement, which continues to garner widespread media coverage even as its members are getting evicted from their encampments in New York and elsewhere and the numbers appear to be dropping.

“The concerns about the banking system; the concerns about the supposed “unfairness” of the tax system; concerns about Wall Street’s power have all coalesced in this motley, ill-tempered, un-sophisticated movement,” Gartman wrote, “that at the moment has very little in the way of concrete philosophy to guide it but which nonetheless seems to have engendered wider support than we had ever thought possible.”

Stocks have fallen more than 4 percent in November, even in the face of gradually but consistently improving economic data in jobs, housing and manufacturing.

Sure OWS is not the only reason for market volatility but according to the opinions of some as cited in this article, appears to be a contributing factor. Probably of most significance to market volatility is the sovereign debt crisis in Europe, but that together with other disruptive activity such as protests throughout Europe and the occupy movement, is working to undermine investor confidence in the current economic and financial system as a whole.

So I submit that OWS and the movement more broadly around the world is in fact beginning to succeed. It just may take more time to see the fruits of their efforts materialise. Look at Syria for example, how long has that been going on for now? Some 8 months? Those folk have had to confront flying led and thousands of deaths in their effort to undermine government authority (government focus as opposed to corporate but similar results being sort) and it finally appears to be gaining traction in doing so.

[color=dodgerblue]I am of the opinion that OWS is barking up the wrong tree.

At the same time I am happy to see that they are barking.

Even if their message isn't clear, even I don't agree with every aspect, I am happy to see that people are waking up.

reply to post by daryllyn
that is this first real statement made about this whole thing, OWS need to get more on the point of what is needed, less on the point of who's street it is.

I believe the same I commend anyone for voicing their opinion expecially when it shows who is in control of our police state...

the numbers estimated by the police were over 30K, I said it when the people in Egypt started protesting this is contagious just because you are confused about these protestors message does not mean they are...

it is a simple statement we are tired of making the 1% rich with out hard work bad health and high taxes.

everyone can agree on this that is why many many groups of protesters are joining together to fix the system, then we can work on individual messages or right, whatever your grievance with the Gov or big business the people are coming together and this is a good thing.

OWS will succeed. It will certainly evolve and become more effective because the conditions that spawned the movement haven't changed and will in fact, worsen.

reply to post by bekod
[color=mediumorchid]I keep wondering why they aren't in DC.

That's where the real problems are.

I also worry, the OWS will fizzle out as cold weather sets in.

reply to post by daryllyn
I too feel that way, If your that upset, OWS, with whats going on, no jobs, high tax, and bail outs i ask you OWS why go after the ones with their hands out?
Go after the ones giving the hand out that is DC or are you not willing to take on the big dogs, just their handlers, that being wall street.

Doing something ....ANYTHING....is 10000000000000000000000000000000x better than doing NOTHING,

What will nothing accomplish? NOTHING!

At least this is causing waves....making more people aware....probably even causing some in power to slightly poop themselves at the thought of what this can lead to.

Of course it's succeeding. People cry "oh no more rights taken away because of this"... Are these people blind? Seriously? Rights have been being taken away from you every day for years now. Either bend over and get your vaseline ready or stand up and do SOMETHING..............ANYTHING!!!!


S+F

reply to post by daryllyn


The shots are not called at DC. Their masters are at WS and the Fed. DC is full of willing puppets put there so the masses can have the illusion of electoral choice. These puppets who are supposed to running things are out playing golf or receiving orders from WS over drinks at the country club. Politicians are there so we can direct our anger and ignore our massive petitions, letters and emails.

reply to post by Snoopy1978


[color=dodgerblue]I still have to stand by my earlier statement.

If it wasn't for the yahoos in DC the greedy bastards on wall street wouldn't be allowed to get away with what they do.

reply to post by surrealist


The movement has not accomplished a thing. The trends in Europe and in the US are against the large government welfare states. Less government, fewer handouts, more conservative leadership. Italy has a fundamentally more conservative leader. Spain is moving to elect a conservative president for the first time in decades, the Greeks are moving forward with their cuts and moving to fiscal sanity. In the US, support for the government is at an all time low and will not improve. One group the OWS crowd is unhappy because there is not enough spending. The other group, call them the Tea Party is unhappy because there is too much spending.

The Tea Party wins the day. The merits of ideas has little to do with it. The amount of money in the bank and threats from those who are lending the US money will force a more conservative approach to government. Those in the OWS movement who want more confiscatory policy won't get it. The money is not there to be taken. Wealth is different than income and when you look at all of the large gaps in the have/have not contrasts you are comparing wealth to income. The government may be able to go after income, but attacking wealth is a far different and in many ways, likely unconstitutional.

As far as the markets, speculators are driving the market. Large institutional investors are selling short, buying high and doing it all over again in a few days.

The fact of the matter is had you bought index funds on the day the OWS movement really hit the streets in late September and kept them, you would be up nicely as of yesterdays close.

I am normally positive in most situations and I commend you for your optimism. I see things from a different angle and my thread was more pointed to the failures of people who claim to support change, yet rally against it.

I have not given up on OWS. From my perspective it is slowly falling apart. It may evolve into a newly energized, more directed movement and I hope it does.

S and F!

Originally posted by daryllyn


Even if their message isn't clear, even I don't agree with every aspect

Can I ask you a question? If their message is not clear ( And I agree that it is not) How can you know whether or not you agree with ever aspect of their message?

Just a thought I had. It's early and I need a smoke. Don't mind me.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by daryllyn


Even if their message isn't clear, even I don't agree with every aspect

Can I ask you a question? If there message is not clear ( And I agree that it is not) How can you know whether you agree with ever aspect of their message?

Just a thought I had. It's early and I need a smoke. Don't mind me.

[color=mediumorchid]That's a very good question. I didn't realize that my post could be interpreted that way.

I was trying make a point though.

Even if I think that the people are barking up the wrong tree, I am still happy to see that they are barking. Even if I don't agree, I am glad that they are standing up for what they believe in. I think OWS deserves some credit just based on that alone.

Does it make more sense now?

reply to post by daryllyn



Yes, it does. Thank you. Like I said, it's early. My body is awake, but my mind is in bed for another few hours.


Oh for the record though, They are in DC.

And many other places. Here is a link that has Occupations from across the world... I think these are just the ones with live streams.

occupystreams.org...

As for the cold weather... It may slow down, but I doubt it will fizzle out. It's all over the world in many places that are not going to be getting cold right now.

I hope I am right in speculating that it does not fizzling out.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth
[color=mediumorchid]Don't feel bad, I am not awake yet either. I am only on my first cup of coffee

I hope you are right about the not fizzling out. I would like to see this movement take a more organized direction and actually make way for some much needed positive changes to the system.

reply to post by daryllyn


That is what I fear will be the eventual downfall of the movement. The lack of any real organized direction/leadership.

If they do all pack up and go home for the winter, maybe that would be a good time for them to work on getting more organized and getting some actual leadership in place?

People keep comparing OWS with the Tea Party. I don't know why, there is only one group doing anything, and that's the OWS. The Tea Party has already been compromised by the establishment politics, there are no rallies, there are no gatherings, and the only time the Tea Party is making any news is by criticizing the OWS movement.

The Tea Party peaked during a mid term election and now with presidential elections less than a year away, where are they? What are they doing? There approval rating is lower than Obama's. There support for the wealthy is there doom.

The OWS is growing each day not only in the US but worldwide. There approval rating is much higher than both Obama's and Tea Party s. Most importantly there messages is being debated, there making headline news almost everyday. They are inspiring discussions about the current inequality prevalent in our economic system, this inequality then spreads into our government with greed and corruption.

So one group is growing and actively protesting and making there voices heard, the other group is doing nothing but criticizing the other group.

We will see in time what becomes of these political movements, and how they will affect us all.

reply to post by LDragonFire



The Tea Party is sitting back and making their preferences known, which is why all of the candidates are catering to them. They are smart. They are not laying about in the streets and in general being an unruly mass. They are quietly hiring thousands of poll watchers to be in prectincts during the election to help stem what will likely be massive fraud organized by the democrats. They are not out having rallies now because it makes no sense for them to have them. They have shown the power of their message and the time to get publically active is to time it properly to use that activation in a get out the vote effort. Who does not know what they want? What candidates are not seeking to gain their support? Were they successful in shaping the outcome of the last election? Yes on all accounts and by definition they are a successful political movement.

OWS has peaked too early. It is on the way down and absent organization, come Summer there will be little in the way of protests. Ideally they will protest. What a nice comparrison, a Tea Party rally where the folks pick up the trash after themselves, behave in an orderly manner, with American flags while across town an OWS rally with unkempt folks shouting obscenities, smoking pot, in a near riot. There is no better advertisement for the Tea Party than OWS. You have the Tea Party collecting names, finding organizers all over the country, using technology to build fund raising efforts which will further build organization and also media. You will have the OWS folks home on the couch sleeping off the binge they just went on.

How many republicans are calling themselves the "Tea Party Candidate" and seek to be declared the Tea Party Candidate? Pretty much all of them. How many politicians will seek to be declared the OWS candidate? not one. Sure they may attempt to cater to them for votes, but nobody will seek the mantle. Nobody who is serious about being elected outside of Berkeley anyway.

OWS is making news every day. Public urination, sex, filth, violence. Each day some incoherent clown talking about taking the system down who then rolls into some tirade about how Jews rule the world. They're in the news alright. What discussions are they inspiring? "He has more than me and its not fair" is the view of a third grader.

Cut it down to the purest of cases. Assume that there was 0 corruption and total transparency in the society. That our elected officials truly represented their citizens. There was $0 inherited wealth, not due to confiscatory government, but simply because everyone spent every dime before they died. We ultimately had an absolutely free meritocracy. In that system imagine that the income distribution was equal to what it is today, simply by individuals being able to generate wealth on their own.

Would there still be an OWS movement? Yes
Would there still be a Tea Party movement? No

Yes, because OWS is redistributionist regardless of the system. Fairness to OWS is not a process or a system of rules or laws. Fairness is about outcomes. People understand that manipulated outcomes, requiring the government to take from some to give to others is fundamentally unjust and that is why OWS will be ultimately rejected.