Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result

Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result

www.bbc.co.uk

The team which found that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and confirmed the result.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This is huge news. Much like the way that Newton's laws break down at quantum levels, Einstein's relativity will break down at speeds faster than light. It does not mean that both these men were wrong, it means we do not have the full story yet. This kind of thing is what excites scientists, the idea that they don't know and that they have to look harder. It's job security! Let's see how many hardcore arm chair skeptics try to come out and dismiss the findings of the worlds foremost experts.

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by BIGPoJo


Still not confirmed....they are going to cross reference it with other machines.
I still think its some kind of glitch, but im no CERN scientist

reply to post by BIGPoJo

Let's see how many hardcore arm chair skeptics try to come out and dismiss the findings of the worlds foremost experts.

Lol then you shouldn't have posted it here if you feel that way.

anyways, something has been bothering me about this for awhile now. Objects aren't supposed to travel faster than light, but these particles apparently are.

Or.....

could it be time dilation? Could the particle be travelling fast enough to slow time down for itself, while leaving time for us at a constant? Couldn't this account for the neutrinos appearing before they should?

See, if it's time dilation, the speed of light remains unbroken, as they can travel below that limit, but still appear to travel faster than it to us, because of time dilation.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by BIGPoJo

Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result

www.bbc.co.uk

The team which found that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and confirmed the result.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This is absolutely amazing. If these "ghost particles" do indeed travel through rock (not just a vacuum) and have the ability to reform into elements (making H, He, O, C ...), and elements into molecules, then the ability to travel back and forth into time may be possible.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


We know time dilation occurs and frame dragging occurs as a scientific fact that has been measured repeated many times. What we have yet to do is accelerate a clock to near light speed and measure its dilation. Until we do that I think we will understand little about what is going on here.

Looks like the new tests they ran confirmed their previous results:

The new tests "confirm so far the previous results," the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics (INFN) said in a press release.

www.physorg.com...

The LHC was supposed to create mini-blackholes which evaporated almost instantly. What if they are in fact creating mini-blackholes and the neutrinos are moving through them through a "mini-wormhole". The neutrinos would disappear at one location and reappear instantly at a different location, giving the illusion of faster than light motion.

So Einstein is still right since the neutrinos themselves never moved FTL but just took a shortcut

reply to post by Violater1

If these "ghost particles" do indeed travel through rock (not just a vacuum) and have the ability to reform into elements (making H, He, O, C ...), and elements into molecules, then the ability to travel back and forth into time may be possible.

The neutrinos ability to travel through matter has never been in dispute. The dispute here is are they traveling faster than light. a neutrino is a sub atomic particle, smaller than atoms. Most matter, though we perceive it as solid, at the atomic and sub atomic levels, it's actually mostly empty space, most of an atom is empty space. So certain particles can travel through matter easily, like a neutrino.

A neutrino (English pronunciation: /njuːˈtriːnoʊ/, Italian pronunciation: [neuˈtriːno]) is an electrically neutral, weakly interacting elementary subatomic particle[1] with a half-integer spin, chirality and a disputed but small non-zero mass. It is able to pass through ordinary matter almost unaffected.

Source

reply to post by loves a conspiricy


Unfortunately we have to wait until next year before it can really be repeated for confirmation.

Next year, teams working on two other experiments at Gran Sasso experiments - Borexino and Icarus - will begin independent cross-checks of Opera's results.

The US Minos experiment and Japan's T2K experiment will also test the observations. It is likely to be several months before they report back.

reply to post by BIGPoJo

We know time dilation occurs and frame dragging occurs as a scientific fact that has been measured repeated times. What we have yet to do is accelerate a clock to near light speed and measure its dilation. Until we do that I think we will understand little about what is going on here.

Indeed, we have proven time dilation is a fact and the speed you are traveling has a direct impact on the duration of dilation. I'd love to know more about this, but sadly I'll have to wait for theoretical physics to stop being theoretical.

anyways, my point was that there are still various explanations for this effect that leave relativity intact.

I didn't even think of the blackhole angle, but really, we have no scientific basis to assume a black hole actually works as a worm hole or portal.

hmm just though of something, a little unrelated.

Speed impacts time. If we send an atomic clock into space, timed to one on earth, because of the speed at which the one orbiting earth is traveling, compared to the one on earth, there is a measurable time dilation effect.

But the earth itself is spinning on it's axis, and orbiting the sun, while our galaxy rotates and moves through space itself.

How can we even be sure "time" on earth is time? Would it, by the effects of the speeds, be dilated itself?

Blarg, I'm done for the week lol

As a layman, I can only say that it seem far from unreasonable to infer that the speed of light limit is a matter of dimensional perspective. Perhaps, mass at those velocities must appear from our relative perspective as travelling faster than we can in "normal" space.

Maybe I've been watching too much Sci-Fi.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
hmm just though of something, a little unrelated.

Speed impacts time. If we send an atomic clock into space, timed to one on earth, because of the speed at which the one orbiting earth is traveling, compared to the one on earth, there is a measurable time dilation effect.

But the earth itself is spinning on it's axis, and orbiting the sun, while our galaxy rotates and moves through space itself.

How can we even be sure "time" on earth is time? Would it, by the effects of the speeds, be dilated itself?

The same way that we know that a meter is a meter, and a kilo is a kilo. We define "earth time" to be time, and everything else is related to it.

Because you need a standard, you know? And it better be one that we can access easily.

It does seem that time dilation could be a factor, but i'd be more inclined to believe that we are entering a new era of partical physics with it's own new set of quantum rules that we know very little about. Very exciting indeed.

Originally posted by BIGPoJo


This is huge news. Much like the way that Newton's laws break down at quantum levels, Einstein's relativity will break down at speeds faster than light. It does not mean that both these men were wrong, it means we do not have the full story yet. This kind of thing is what excites scientists, the idea that they don't know and that they have to look harder. It's job security! Let's see how many hardcore arm chair skeptics try to come out and dismiss the findings of the worlds foremost experts.

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

No dismissing whatsoever if you'd live by this websites motto, deny ignorance. We don't have anywhere near the full story. Perhaps they are experience similar qualities as the virtual particles recently observed here, but in a different direction... coming back into our observable universe appearing to travel faster than light.

Although I'm not opposed to ftl travel one way or another, this could be more of an illusion created by representations of time (over all entropy of whatever multiverse they transpire).

How does this story relate to this story: More data shows neutrinos still faster than light

This debate has been going on for months, it seems to me that the neutrino can in fact travel faster than light.

The best explanation I have seen regarding these observations is that the neutrinos are not actually travelling faster than light, rather taking a shortcut through some extra dimension. Unseen dimensions are predicted by string theory and this may be the first tangible evidence that the string theorists are on the right track.

Here is an explanation of string theory 'WARNING' your brain may overheat rapidly, so enter at your own risk en.wikipedia.org...

Is it so hard to accept that both Newton and Einstein
and even more of these rulemaking scientist might only
have TOUCHED the truth and laws.

I mean we are talking about men in their 40-60s, with
a limited understanding of physics. And by limited i
mean limited as in the human race is, like 35000 years
and during that time we did most of our lifes in caves..

I bet there are tons and tons of rules/laws that not ness
is broken but bent...And perhaps overrides is possible....


We dont know even a 10th of the WHOLE story....

Originally posted by Nicolas Flamel
Looks like the new tests they ran confirmed their previous results:

The new tests "confirm so far the previous results," the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics (INFN) said in a press release.

www.physorg.com...

The LHC was supposed to create mini-blackholes which evaporated almost instantly. What if they are in fact creating mini-blackholes and the neutrinos are moving through them through a "mini-wormhole". The neutrinos would disappear at one location and reappear instantly at a different location, giving the illusion of faster than light motion.

So Einstein is still right since the neutrinos themselves never moved FTL but just took a shortcut

The LHC was not used for this experiment, it was the LEP. The LEP was not considered to create mini black holes as far as I remember. Second, how would you explain that there is "accidentialy" another black hole at the labor in italy? So I think this is something we can ignore.

But the idea that neutrinos could take shortcuts or operate in another dimensional state sounds valid for me.

reply to post by verschickter

The LHC was not used for this experiment, it was the LEP.

From what I've read, there was some expectation that the LHC could generate mini or micro blackholes:

Some theories involving additional space dimensions predict that micro black holes could be formed at an energy as low as the TeV range, which will be available in particle accelerators such as the LHC (Large Hadron Collider).

en.wikipedia.org...

They were also supposed to be able to detect the formation of micro-blackholes but they haven't said they have detected any.

If the neutrinos are "jumping" through space-time and not moving FTL, it will be interesting to see how physicists explain it.

As a physicist, (or at least someone who will be obtaining a vphd in it soon, and with publications in the leading journals) I feel I probably should comment on this.

Firstly, I just going to point out that I am not associated with the OPERa collaboration in any way.

Second, my flag is planted in anti-string theory camp, so there is some bias in regards to that as a possible answer to it. I began as a particle theorist, then switched to condensed matter theories due to disagreements about it's validity. String theorist are claiming that their theory predicts ftl neutrinos, but there in no evidence of this. There are no published or pre-prints papers that have been released either before or after the experimental results to support that claim. For the layman, that is akin to claiming to be able to predict earthquakes/lottery numbers/etc but only making the predictions public after the fact. (ie claiming you can predict lottery numbers, but not buying a ticket to prove it.)

Now, I going to respond to a few misconceptions that seem to be present in this thread,

Originally posted by Nicolas Flamel
The LHC was supposed to create mini-blackholes which evaporated almost instantly. What if they are in fact creating mini-blackholes and the neutrinos are moving through them through a "mini-wormhole". The neutrinos would disappear at one location and reappear instantly at a different location, giving the illusion of faster than light motion.

Those black holes wouldn't be larger enough for the neutrinos to enter, and LHC isn't running at its maximum energy yet, so those wouldn't be created yet. Instead, It started running at energies where we understand the physics and slowly increases it to look for a peak in the energy spectrum, associated with the point where the Higgs is first created to identify it's mass (if it exists at all).
But there's a more pressing issue with this post, the neutrinos aren't being generated by the LHC beam but by the CNGS beam

see
proj-cngs.web.cern.ch...

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by BIGPoJo

 

Indeed, we have proven time dilation is a fact and the speed you are traveling has a direct impact on the duration of dilation.

I'd love to know more about this, but sadly I'll have to wait for theoretical physics to stop being theoretical.

Time dilation is proven and well studied. Atomic clocks are accurate enough to detect its effects even one is place of a commercial aircraft, which then flies somewhere else on the globe. This has been done repeatedly.

As for the 2nd point, the word "theory" in science has a VERY different meaning to its usage in the arts, or general usage. Specifically, in physics it means

Theory(science) - a mathematical framework based on a set of postulates, capable of making predictions, and are generally has passed some experimental tests (ie agreement with existing data).
ie Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism, evolution, special/general relativity belong here.

Hypothesis (science) - same as Theory(science), but has not been tested at all.

Theory(arts/ common usage) -- a guess,

Originally posted by Atzil321
The best explanation I have seen regarding these observations is that the neutrinos are not actually travelling faster than light, rather taking a shortcut through some extra dimension. Unseen dimensions are predicted by string theory and this may be the first tangible evidence that the string theorists are on the right track.

They're yet to produce any evidence supporting their claims. Most of the equations yield the answer 1/0 or similar.

Originally posted by verschickter

The LHC was not used for this experiment, it was the LEP.

Partly right the LHC wasn't used, but the LEP doesnt exist anymore it was dismantled to make space for the LHC. Instead see above.



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As for me, it's definitely an interesting repeat in that it eliminates main experimental criticisms, such that the 6 sigma accuracy looks more reasonable now, or at least enough so that all scientist involved are willing to have their names associated with it, rather the split between that group on the previous result.