Riot Police batter Iraq war vet (rupture his spleen) - Caught on camera

Originally posted by HandyDandy

Originally posted by studio500
If he wasn't doing what he was doing the incident wouldn't have happened. No point crying after the event.

So when the first cop gets killed (and you know it's coming) we can just say " If he wasn't doing what he was doing the incident wouldn't have happened. No point crying after the event."

Good. I'll remember to say that when it does happen.

When the first cop gets killed, we'll see our first OWS protesters prosecuted under Capital Murder charges and given one way passes to Occupy Death Row.

There is absolutely NO comparing police to protesters for proximate cause on these incidents. The Police are there by order and profession. They aren't choosing it and without Police in society, we'd be living under the rule of the gun. Period. He who has the most and is most willing to use them, rules. Is that a preferable society to everyone?

Protesters on the other hand are there ENTIRELY by their own choosing. In the the case of the Vet in this video, challenging Police straight into a physical confrontation entirely by their own choice. That will make the first death of a cop 1st Degree Murder. There just ins't another way to see it given who is there by choice vs. who is there by professional title and job duties.

It seemed to me, that he was standing in the middle of the road and was given ample warnings to move.
I would have sided with the individual as long as he was not on private property and not on the road.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
The only difference is - is that when other countries protest, soldiers are sent in to help the rebels.

This is the most important part of your analogy. Our governments are quick to aid protesters and rebels in other countries. When it comes to our own country they pull out all stops to quell the opposition. It just goes to show that all assistance to foreign nations is done for political purposes, and our leadership cares nothing about the rights of humans.

reply to post by mr-lizard

With all due respect..... Some people, including the vets, are going to push and push and push some more. Eventually, they WILL get people killed. Both protesters and Police. I've come to realize this is the whole point for some of the guiding forces and individuals in the movement. Avoiding confrontation and peaceful protest isn't, if it ever had been, the goal of the effort by those people.

I believe the behavior we're witnessing here puts the Vet in the video squarely in the camp who are actively and aggressively seeking to create one of those incidents where fatalities are the outcome. I don't know if it even matters to some who are rooting on this behavior WHICH people are the first to die. As long as the media has bodies in the street to jump start the movement, right? Some of these tactics and approaches are starting to really make me sick to watch because it is instigating and in the worst way. I have NO sympathy when someone brought it on themselves by deliberate action or omission of action. Where I come from, it's called getting whats coming to you, and he did. In spades.

There is something else to consider. The cops DEFINITELY consider it, so the protesters had better start. If there is a Hippie, and ACLU member and a Veteran standing shoulder to shoulder and resisting police, it will be the Vet that gets hurt every single time and twice on Sunday. Why? The Vet is the ONLY one of the 3 the police *KNOW* has been trained to fight and trained to hurt people fast and brutal in that style of fighting. The Vet IS the threat...and that is just how things are. There is no changing that when said Vet has placed themselves directly in the line of fire and appears ready to fight or resist authority. Just start thinking about that....because again, the Police already have been for quite awhile now.

I love that this crowd puts the vet on a pedestal for being in a war but at the same time thinks everyone is equal. Hey OP, would you be saying the same thing if the protester was muslim? Would you be wishing the police good luck?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by PrimalRed


What crowd? The only place it's mentioned is in the OP nor should you assume how anyone feels about soldiers or vets, you'd be hard pressed to find an american who isn't closely related to either or who hasn't served themselves. What happened in that video should never happen period, regardless of who they are or what they have done in their life.

I can't believe some of these responses. Please ask yourself when this became ok, when did it become ok for a cop to use violence first? How is not every american outraged?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by PrimalRed

 

How is not every american outraged?

I am not outraged because this is what protesters WANT, they THRIVE on this. If it was not for police action they would not give the coverage they desperately crave.

This guy even changed his story, according to him he was walking away when this happened, i guess he did not count on it being filmed.

www.guardian.co.uk...
Sabehgi told the Guardian from hospital he was walking alone along 14th Street in central Oakland – away from the main area of clashes – when he was injured.

He was also "denied" medical aid by denying it when it was offered

A nurse was called and recommended Sabehgi take a suppository, but he said he "didn't want to take it".

Originally posted by PrimalRed

A nurse was called and recommended Sabehgi take a suppository, but he said he "didn't want to take it".

Yup.. Your spleen is bleeding making you feel the most pain in your stomach ever and the nurse wants to shove something in your ass.

Would YOU take it?

Originally posted by HandyDandy

Originally posted by PrimalRed

A nurse was called and recommended Sabehgi take a suppository, but he said he "didn't want to take it".

Yup.. Your spleen is bleeding making you feel the most pain in your stomach ever and the nurse wants to shove something in your ass.

Would YOU take it?

Considering a lot of suppositories are for fast pain relief, yes. If i need medical attention im not going to turn it away because it tastes bad then say i was denied anything

reply to post by PrimalRed

Treatment




Management of shock is of prime importance in the treatment of an individual with a ruptured spleen. Depending on the mechanism of injury, management will vary. Those individuals with sustained multiple injuries may need emergency interventions to maintain their airway and provide ventilation. Any injuries, including a ruptured spleen, associated with low blood pressure and rapid pulse (shock) need to be treated with rapid fluid replacement and possibly blood transfusion. If shock is severe, a large vein (central vein, internal carotid, brachial, or femoral vein) is often catheterized to administer large volumes of fluid rapidly. Individuals with signs of hemorrhagic shock are treated with a laparotomy to identify and control the source(s) of bleeding.

In recent years, treatment of spleen injuries has evolved toward splenic repair and preservation because of the spleen's important role in immunity and a better understanding of complications that can arise from splenectomy later in life. Partial splenectomy or splenic repairs are being done with greater frequency and success. Currently only about 30% of patients are treated with surgery (Townsend 339). Immunizations against pneumococcal, meningococcal, and Haemophilus influenzae are recommended prior to splenic operations to protect the individual from postsplenectomy infections and sepsis. These immunizations are generally repeated every 5 years following splenic surgery to extend the protection.

About three-quarters of individuals whose vital signs are stable are treated nonoperatively. The possibility of delayed rupture is the greatest risk associated with nonoperative treatment. Nonoperative management may require significant transfusions, repeated CT scans and hematocrits, and close observation for up to 2 weeks, including an initial period of observation in intensive care. Delayed ruptures of the spleen typically occur within 2 weeks. Approximately 10% of those individuals initially treated nonoperatively eventually require surgery (Townsend 340).

www.mdguidelines.com...

Please show me where it states that giving a patient a pain relieving suppository (to cover up the symptom not address the cause) is the correct medical procedure for a bleeding spleen/internal bleeding.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

You have got to be kidding me. I am supposed to feel sorry for him? He did all but spit in their face! Notice he is entirely ALONE? No one else had the lack of good sense to actually try and stand nose to nose with their police line and actively resist.

Not kidding I'm afraid. He didn't spit in their faces.
He sounds much braver than you.

Now, if our fearless friend here were doing it in a city where there was 0 history of police using violent force, I may be shocked and speechless over how this turned out. No, instead, he chooses the behavior MOST LIKELY to get him hurt in the city above all others in the United States MOST LIKELY to se a police line of control put the sticks to him.

So you admit the NYPD are violent bastards?

What I see in that video is called instigating an event and your vet there is the instigator. There have most definitely been cases of entirely unprovoked police abuse and excess. THIS thread isn't showing one of them, IMHO.

Public street. Why shouldn't he be there?

Furthermore, when does a city ordinance trump both the 1st and 2nd Amendments of our Constitution? So that we're crystal clear from now on... Never.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

With all due respect..... Some people, including the vets, are going to push and push and push some more. Eventually, they WILL get people killed. Both protesters and Police. I've come to realize this is the whole point for some of the guiding forces and individuals in the movement. Avoiding confrontation and peaceful protest isn't, if it ever had been, the goal of the effort by those people.

I believe the behavior we're witnessing here puts the Vet in the video squarely in the camp who are actively and aggressively seeking to create one of those incidents where fatalities are the outcome. I don't know if it even matters to some who are rooting on this behavior WHICH people are the first to die. As long as the media has bodies in the street to jump start the movement, right? Some of these tactics and approaches are starting to really make me sick to watch because it is instigating and in the worst way. I have NO sympathy when someone brought it on themselves by deliberate action or omission of action. Where I come from, it's called getting whats coming to you, and he did. In spades.

There is something else to consider. The cops DEFINITELY consider it, so the protesters had better start. If there is a Hippie, and ACLU member and a Veteran standing shoulder to shoulder and resisting police, it will be the Vet that gets hurt every single time and twice on Sunday. Why? The Vet is the ONLY one of the 3 the police *KNOW* has been trained to fight and trained to hurt people fast and brutal in that style of fighting. The Vet IS the threat...and that is just how things are. There is no changing that when said Vet has placed themselves directly in the line of fire and appears ready to fight or resist authority. Just start thinking about that....because again, the Police already have been for quite awhile now.

edit on 18-11-2011 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I got through your first paragraph at least... Yeah, it's worked once before had you studied some American History.

Originally posted by HandyDandy
reply to post by PrimalRed

 

Treatment




Management of shock is of prime importance in the treatment of an individual with a ruptured spleen. Depending on the mechanism of injury, management will vary. Those individuals with sustained multiple injuries may need emergency interventions to maintain their airway and provide ventilation. Any injuries, including a ruptured spleen, associated with low blood pressure and rapid pulse (shock) need to be treated with rapid fluid replacement and possibly blood transfusion. If shock is severe, a large vein (central vein, internal carotid, brachial, or femoral vein) is often catheterized to administer large volumes of fluid rapidly. Individuals with signs of hemorrhagic shock are treated with a laparotomy to identify and control the source(s) of bleeding.

In recent years, treatment of spleen injuries has evolved toward splenic repair and preservation because of the spleen's important role in immunity and a better understanding of complications that can arise from splenectomy later in life. Partial splenectomy or splenic repairs are being done with greater frequency and success. Currently only about 30% of patients are treated with surgery (Townsend 339). Immunizations against pneumococcal, meningococcal, and Haemophilus influenzae are recommended prior to splenic operations to protect the individual from postsplenectomy infections and sepsis. These immunizations are generally repeated every 5 years following splenic surgery to extend the protection.

About three-quarters of individuals whose vital signs are stable are treated nonoperatively. The possibility of delayed rupture is the greatest risk associated with nonoperative treatment. Nonoperative management may require significant transfusions, repeated CT scans and hematocrits, and close observation for up to 2 weeks, including an initial period of observation in intensive care. Delayed ruptures of the spleen typically occur within 2 weeks. Approximately 10% of those individuals initially treated nonoperatively eventually require surgery (Townsend 340).

www.mdguidelines.com...

Please show me where it states that giving a patient a pain relieving suppository (to cover up the symptom not address the cause) is the correct medical procedure for a bleeding spleen/internal bleeding.

edit on 18-11-2011 by HandyDandy because: (no reason given)

Im not a doctor and i doubt you are, you tell me how being offered medical attention is being "denied" medical attention.
Show me where diareha and vomiting are symptoms of a ruptured spleen.

reply to post by mr-lizard




Sadly I'm not shocked or surprised any more, these protests have thrown up more evidence and footage of police brutality and criminal activity by the police, than I've seen in years.


They could have grabbed the guy, he posed no threat whatsoever and made no movements towards that officer.

The officer that did that, that beat up an unarmed War Vet is a ****ing coward.... seriously.

A piece of ****

Originally posted by Americanist

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

With all due respect..... Some people, including the vets, are going to push and push and push some more. Eventually, they WILL get people killed. Both protesters and Police. I've come to realize this is the whole point for some of the guiding forces and individuals in the movement. Avoiding confrontation and peaceful protest isn't, if it ever had been, the goal of the effort by those people.

I believe the behavior we're witnessing here puts the Vet in the video squarely in the camp who are actively and aggressively seeking to create one of those incidents where fatalities are the outcome. I don't know if it even matters to some who are rooting on this behavior WHICH people are the first to die. As long as the media has bodies in the street to jump start the movement, right? Some of these tactics and approaches are starting to really make me sick to watch because it is instigating and in the worst way. I have NO sympathy when someone brought it on themselves by deliberate action or omission of action. Where I come from, it's called getting whats coming to you, and he did. In spades.

There is something else to consider. The cops DEFINITELY consider it, so the protesters had better start. If there is a Hippie, and ACLU member and a Veteran standing shoulder to shoulder and resisting police, it will be the Vet that gets hurt every single time and twice on Sunday. Why? The Vet is the ONLY one of the 3 the police *KNOW* has been trained to fight and trained to hurt people fast and brutal in that style of fighting. The Vet IS the threat...and that is just how things are. There is no changing that when said Vet has placed themselves directly in the line of fire and appears ready to fight or resist authority. Just start thinking about that....because again, the Police already have been for quite awhile now.

edit on 18-11-2011 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I got through your first paragraph at least... Yeah, it's worked once before had you studied some American History.

Which part of American history have you gone to assume I am ignorant on? Perhaps if you highlight my shortcomings on knowledge, I may address them in short order. Then again, perhaps something more than a quick snipe from the sidelines would be a little better in helping add to the discussion and point out where I'm wrong and why.

Sorry if my posts tend to run a little long.... Several topics we discuss here just don't lend themselves to snarky one liners or snipe attacks. I tend to explain my position...not just throw it at someone then bash 'em if they don't agree. Thats me tho....It's been my approach to serious and meaningful debate or discussion for many years.

Originally posted by PrimalRed
you tell me how being offered medical attention is being "denied" medical attention.

Because you don't just say "oh well, he denied taking my symptom hider, I guess I'll just ignore him and his cries for help now".

Show me where diareha and vomiting are symptoms of a ruptured spleen.

They aren't, but I CAN show you where disorientation, slowed thinking and possible brain damage ARE.

With this in mind....should the nurse have listened to him?

That's like a doctor listening to a stroke victim while having a stroke saying "No worries...I'm just fine. Don't worry about the fact my whole left side is paralized".

No, having taken the hypocratic oath, you are required to do ALL you can.

Offering a suppository and then giving up is NOT all you can do.

reply to post by HandyDandy

hat's like a doctor listening to a stroke victim while having a stroke saying "No worries...I'm just fine. Don't worry about the fact my whole left side is paralized".

No, because having the left side of the body paralyzed is a symptom of a stroke.

No, having taken the hypocratic oath, you are required to do ALL you can.

Offering a suppository and then giving up is NOT all you can do.

Nurses do not take the Hippocratic oath...
You have the right to deny medical treatment and he exercised that right.

Regardless if he is a vet or even the President of the USA, he is fellow human, unarmed, and only excercising his rights and freedom as a citizen.

The police may had been given an order to remove peaceful protestors from the streets, which by itself is an illegal order, as verified by nonetheless than the Supreme Court whom decides on Constitutional correctness, adherence and laws, BUT there was no reason for those uniformed group, worthy of respect to follow UNCONSTITUTIONAL orders, and worse, BRUTALIZE those whom are only following the law, as per their constitutional rights!

It can only be deduce that those thugs in uniform acted outside of the law of the land, had reverted to barbarism, and harmed fellow human brothers and sisters.

Please do have a conscience, and delude yourself no more to protect thugs and animals. A wrong had been committed, there can be no whitewashing of it. Money lost can be earned the next day, but once lives are lost, it can never be returned.

The innocent man, guilty of no crime, had been brutalized unconscionably. Those whom hate OWS need not shed any pity, for all understand the depths of hatred which will justify any actions against those whom they hate. But innocents are down, this is beyond hatred for anyone. What is needed is accountability, and its the police forces, espacially those guilty of brutality, be held responsible BY ALL citizens, if not mankind., to ensure justice is served for ALL, or we will only regress back to the jungles and never know a day of peace or security.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

You have got to be kidding me. I am supposed to feel sorry for him? He did all but spit in their face! Notice he is entirely ALONE? No one else had the lack of good sense to actually try and stand nose to nose with their police line and actively resist.

Now, if our fearless friend here were doing it in a city where there was 0 history of police using violent force, I may be shocked and speechless over how this turned out. No, instead, he chooses the behavior MOST LIKELY to get him hurt in the city above all others in the United States MOST LIKELY to se a police line of control put the sticks to him.

What I see in that video is called instigating an event and your vet there is the instigator. There have most definitely been cases of entirely unprovoked police abuse and excess. THIS thread isn't showing one of them, IMHO.

Wow... seriously? He's an American citizen who was operating within his legal right to protest. He posed no threat to the police other than standing in defiance. No attempt was made to peacfully subdue him. He was beaten even after he was rendered incapable of resisting. He was denied proper and immediate medical attention.

It's people like you who have given away our constitutional rights...

reply to post by Blarneystoner

No attempt was made to peacfully subdue him.

Warning him and telling him repeatedly to move is not peaceful?