ATS: We Have Failed!

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Sorry sheepslayer, the 60's and now don't even compare. I was there then, and I have been at OWS where I live now. People were unified back then, this is the "ME" generation we are talking about now, not the 60's movement. There is no comparison, none. The mindset is totally different, I have experienced both camps, and I speak the truth. No unity at all. And if you ask the people at OWS why they are there, you will get a different answer from every person! You asked someone back in the 60's why they were there, and you got one response, the same response from everyone there. Don't compare my generation with the "ME" generation!

Originally posted by charles1952
I'm not sure I can agree with one of your statements, NoHierarchy.

Because union influence on politicians is nowhere near as big a problem. Period. They are out-spent and out-corrupted by hundreds of times by large corporations.

I think you'll have a difficult time coming up with evidence to support that position.

In the last elections AFSCME was the largest spender in the country at a little under 100 million (and it wasn't even a presidential year), and three of the top five donors were unions. (The other two being SEIU and NEA). Remember also, that Obama spent about twice as much as McCain in 2008.

But I'm certainly willing to see your evidence that unions "are out-spent and out-corrupted by hundreds of times by large corporations."

Here ya go, bud:

www.opensecrets.org...

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Because union influence on politicians is nowhere near as big a problem. Period. They are out-spent and out-corrupted by hundreds of times by large corporations. And hell... SOMEONE has to stick up for workers' rights against private plutocrats/tycoons.

It's influence on politicians in defiance of the People. No different from corporate influence at all.

Buying votes is buying votes.

Why can workers not stick up for their own rights? I've been doing it for years - what makes them any weaker than me?

I'm all for banning special interests from controlling our elections via flooding them with PAC money. INCLUDING unions. And the majority of left-wingers agree with me.

Workers CAN stick up for their own rights... but fat chance for most workers when they are not unionized and face higher-ups and CEOs who can essentially tell them to shove it. It's about a balancing of power between the authorities of a business (the boss-men/execs) and those whose labors make the all the gears turn, those whose labors on the shop floors contribute the profit that the higher-ups live more lavishly off of. It's about more Democratic workplaces where workers get a more equal say in what goes on, the power of negotiation with bosses is key. Being subject to the whims of markets or bosses when selling your labor (i.e. your time/energy/dignity/etc.) is wage-slavery, and while it's not always hell, it's farther from heaven.

An even BETTER solution is the Cooperative:
en.wikipedia.org...

Failure for some, may be success for others.

Is the failure for the majority? Maybe so..

Is the privileged minority included in this failure? .. not sure.

---

Why is there failure for the many?

Answer:

They are not on the "inside". They do not understand how the world works. They are ignorant. Nor do they have the resources or the ability to cause any type of significant influence.

It is for this reason - *ignorance* and the *lack of ability* and *resources* that there is no effective movement.

I mean, many people believe if you hold large music concerts, and dance around, hold peaceful rallies holding up a bunch of signs is going to save the world. This is not going to do anything in my opinion. Look at the massive worldwide demonstrations that happened before Iraq. They did nothing to influence the future outcome.

The great art of what these guys are demonstrating is that a small group is holding a massive population in check. It is quite amazing. The 99% cannot defeat the 1%.

So what will it take if it is possible at all. It would take:

1. A real understanding and knowledge (of how the world operates, amongst other things) by a core group; those with an exceptional inherent ability.
2. They will have to have great financial resources and other resources, like media control/influence; and it has to be BIG MEDIA! Not some crummy websites. Also they will need military resources.
3. There has to be organization within this group of powerful people.
4. There has to be a joint will.

---

Now why does this not exist? I don't know, maybe because those who have this - ability, capital, and resources are happy with the way things are. I am not sure. Who knows if the greater plan is not ultimately for the good of the whole?

To make an analogy of the situation:

How can a massive heard of sheep be kept in check and exploited by a few humans?

Because ..

*The humans have an inherent ability which the sheep do not have. It includes understanding/knowledge (the ability/facility to acquire it, and the knowledge itself), "resources", and other inherent abilities.*

reply to post by sheepslayer247

This is the way the world ends not with a bang but a whimper.
If WE make noise and keep opening peoples eyes. WE can stop the evil.
Please help those who can't see what we do.

reply to post by NoHierarchy

Dear NoHierarchy,

Thank you for your response and that link. It seems that we're having some problems finding the appropriate data. I wonder if the people who prepare the data have agendas or differing standards, or if perhaps we're looking at it skewed.

You showed me a list of contributions by sector. On that page, on the left hand edge, there are other lists. I took a look at the top ten heavy hitters. Its page is here: OpenSecrets Top Ten Heavy Hitters

Top 10 Heavy Hitters:
ActBlue $56,856,922
AT&T Inc $47,737,462
American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees $46,366,658
National Assn of Realtors $40,823,776
Service Employees International Union $37,634,117
National Education Assn $37,146,129
Goldman Sachs $36,046,453
American Assn for Justice $35,021,304
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $34,445,372
Laborers Union $32,096,950

ActBlue is a Democratic Party bundling organization. I can't see any way to justify calling it a corporate lobbyist group, maybe it's half union? I don't know.

Of the ten top givers then, five are unions, two are corporations, one is the trial lawyer's (what, union? association?) They favor Democrats in their giving, ActBlue is entirely Democrat, and the Realtor's group splits its donations equally (according to Open Secrets).

Corporations in the top 10 donated roughly $ 84 million.
Unions in the top 10 donated roughly $ 188 million.

Would it be wrong to say Unions are at least as large in their donations as Corporations? That seems reasonable to me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by sheepslayer247


i have to disagree with you on that one , in my opinion more and more people are awakening every day and everyone can do their part by spreadin' the word , the peace and the light .
peace out

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
That's right ATS.....we have failed!

What may amount to being the only chance we had at changing the way we live and govern ourselves is quickly fading into the history books as a mear footnote of tragedy.

Many of you tossed the Occupy movements to the side as a political inconvenience and ridiculed the people that were willing to take a stand on principle. These people didn't want to enact a liberal socialist regime that took away capitalism and individual freedoms! They wanted a small glimpse of hope that their future would be brighter than the inside of a corporate cubical or less depressing than an unemployment line.

But when the American people needed an intelligent group of people to help formulate ideas and actions that would be effective, we sat back and called them names; pointed fingers and grimiced at the thought of actually having to step away from our keyboards and put actions behind the very words spoken on this website. The collective knowledge we possess here would have been an invaluble asset to aid in the change we all know is needed.

We can talk about change, but it now will fall on the deaf ears of those that know we are all talk......no game. By our own inaction we have labeled ourselves hypocrits. We no longer have a leg to stand on as the opportunity to act has come, and is slowly passing into the folds of American history.

To those whom did and are taking a stand, I commend you.

To those who sat idly by afraid of dirty hippies and socialists: We could have used your help. You knowledge and insight would have been invaluble in a movement where all Americans needed to toss aside the petty differences and stood together as Americans......as humans.

But it looks as though we are going to fail. It looks as though the NWO police state is one step closer.

The fears of an entire country; better yet, an entire planet may come to fruition.

We should be ashamed of ourselves. We should have done more.

edit on 17-11-2011 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-11-2011 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

Hi Sheep Slayer,

To posit failure would mean there was a clear objective to begin with; but, it is glaringly obvious we are dealing with a highly stratified group of individuals, with diversfied objectives. As such, there cannot be a consensus established between them; rather, ATS resembles a dis-sensus, where ideas are bounced off of each other to invoke a new - hybridized - theories to be then tested. The problem starts with the latter, i.e. how can anyone empirically test many theories on here? Induction? Deduction? We are swimming in THE sea of dis-information, and only highly-intelligent minds can transcend the limitations imposed on the population and see the big picture and the nitty-gritty simultaneously. Otherwise, you are absolutely correct, we will keep on blabbing and yapping, moving nowhere, eventually getting dragged all the way to FEMA camps, still believing in the showery version of events, if you will. A clear plan is only possible if we start with ourselves:


1. Who am I?
2. What am I going to do with the situation at hand, intrinsically and extrinsically?


Forget others, you are your own answer.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Do you still breath my friend?

Then you have not failed.

Can you still stand?

See and hear?

Still gotta voice?



You are not alone and you have not failed. I am with you. Get with the Plan.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by JibbyJedi


But the publicity may be priceless, or at most got a few more people to realize something really wrong is going on, and the rest to maybe wonder a bit harder even if the masses might believe Occupy Wall Street was a fraud.