The cover up as to God's gender

God is made up and is whoever anyone wants it to be. I don't want to step on any toes here and I'll explain my view on religion. I believe that if their is a creator(or creators) no one know the identity of it/she/he/He-she/ or She-he, or what it's agenda is. So I just try to live my life as morally as possible according to my beliefs in hopes of appeasing said creator, if the creator is even interested in whatever I do.

Now, on to the next issue. Christianity isn't the only religion, and not all religions see the creator as a male or even human. Lets take the ancient greeks for example. They believed that Gaia created Herself out of chaos. Gaia is earth you see. Though the titian Promthus did create man, and he was he hmm. I digress though.

Now you're whole gender of god thing could be sexism of the church, As a conspiracy to hide the identity of god though I doubt it. Religion, as the way I see it is a reflection on a culture of people and their philosophy. What I don't see religion as is as an absolute truth.

reply to post by Mcupobob

Religion, as the way I see it is a reflection on a culture of people and their philosophy

I totally agree with this. So many want to say religion was created solely to control people or to mislead people when religion can show us alot about mankinds past ideals, desires, and fears. There were real reasons for the beliefs they had. It is a showing of what they accepted or understood at that time.

reply to post by undo


yes, the ruddy man...ty, interesting stuff. Funny how so many think you are refuting scripture instead of elaborating only on the text itself. So many dogmas today that are represented as the scriptures..i.e., the traditions of men.

reply to post by breakherlegs


this is tricky. I am leaning that Lilith was lucifer, the female twin of Cain. Lucy or lucifer is female. She hated bth Adam and especially Eve as her Father was Samael, not Adam. She was the one who elevated herself above Adam and her mother Eve in legend to her followers and progeny. But I have alot to look into now with undo's work enlightening me to this work she has done. I now have to consider if lilith is the first creation and WAS there before Eve.

reply to post by Mcupobob


thanks for your opinion. It's nice to hear peoples opinions in a scholarly type of discussion regarding historical facts, even if the historical aspect is ignored.

oh, btw, are you "absolutely" sure of that?

reply to post by undo


No, you're wrong. The first man was Adam and the first woman was Eve. Everything written in Genesis is not in chronological order. God made Eve from the rib of Adam. God made them and God alone. And there was no death until after Adam sinned. It is what it is. You are a liar amongst many.

bible.org...

(1) Elohim: The plural form of EL, meaning “strong one.” It is used of false gods, but when used of the true God, it is a plural of majesty and intimates the trinity. It is especially used of God’s sovereignty, creative work, mighty work for Israel and in relation to His sovereignty (Isa. 54:5; Jer. 32:27; Gen. 1:1; Isa. 45:18; Deut. 5:23; 8:15; Ps. 68:7).

El Shaddai:“God Almighty.”

El Elyon: “The Most High God.”

El Olam: “The Everlasting God.”

Yahweh (YHWH): Comes from a verb which means “to exist, be.”
Yahweh Jireh (Yireh): “The Lord will provide.”
Yahweh Nissi:“The Lord is my Banner.”
Yahweh Shalom:“The Lord is Peace.”
Yahweh Sabbaoth:“The Lord of Hosts.”
Yahweh Maccaddeshcem: “The Lord your Sanctifier.”
Yahweh Ro’i: “The Lord my Shepherd.”
Yahweh Tsidkenu: “The Lord our Righteousness.”
Yahweh Shammah: “The Lord is there.”
Yahweh Elohim Israel: “The Lord, the God of Israel.”

Adonai: Like Elohim, this too is a plural of majesty. The singular form means “master, owner.”

Theos: Greek word translated “God.”
Kurios: Greek word translated “Lord.”
Despotes: Greek word translated “Master.”

Father:A distinctive New Testament revelation is that through faith in Christ, God becomes our personal Father. Father is used of God in the Old Testament only 15 times while it is used of God 245 times in the New Testament. As a name of God, it stresses God’s loving care, provision, discipline, and the way we are to address God in prayer

What I find is that like a family structure God is also that family structure in nature.
The Father is the defender and provider of the house.
The Spirit the healer the carer of the two, we ask the Holy Spirit to heal us a bit like mother nature.
The Son like any other family member the created here on earth but eternal also who is the Father's abassador.

But because he was put on the cross the Son inherits the Kingship of the earth, he is now Lord or Lords and King of Kings.

Although the Trinity is three but in one the dial of its nature intertwines and turns, he is not a big bubble of conciousness.

Originally posted by manna2
reply to post by Mcupobob

 

oh, btw, are you "absolutely" sure of that?

edit on 20-11-2011 by manna2 because: (no reason given)

I am now, not sure how I will feel in the future. From my logic there are too many religions for their to be a true religion. Now, the way I see there is no religion to my satisfaction that is an absolute truth. Is there perhaps some truth to some of them, or maybe all of them? Maybe, I'm not so arrogant to reject religion in it's entirety. Theology has always been a favorite subject of mine, as I see it as a way to learn about humanity, cultures, and oneself. But as a way to understanding a deity that may or may not exist? I don't see that. Something that powerful, something that great I think would be unimaginable to us.

reply to post by The time lord

Hi Time Lord -

You wrote: QUOTE - Elohim: plural form of EL, meaning “strong one.” used of false gods - when used of the true god, it is a plural of majesty and intimates the trinity.

El Shaddai: “God Almighty.” El Elyon: “The Most High God.” El Olam: “The Everlasting God.”

Yahweh (YHWH): Comes from a verb “to exist, be.” Yahweh Yireh: “The Lord will provide.”
Yahweh Nissi:“The Lord is my Banner.” Yahweh Shalom:“The Lord is Peace.”
Yahweh Sabbaoth:“The Lord of Hosts.” Yahweh Maccaddeshcem: “The Lord your Sanctifier.”
Yahweh Ro’i: “The Lord my Shepherd.” Yahweh Tsidkenu: “The Lord our Righteousness.”
Yahweh Shammah: “The Lord is there.” Yahweh Elohim Israel: “The Lord, the God of Israel.”

Adonai: Like Elohim, this too is a plural of majesty. The singular EL form means “master, owner.”

UNQUOTE

Yes, ELOHIM is a plural but not of EL (that would be ELIM) –

ELOHIM (lit. ‘gods’) is (Shock &Awe !!) the Masculine Plural of the fem sg. paleoHeb word ELOAH,

See the poetical sections of the mangled un-pointed texts of the Elamite-Hebrew book of Job, beginning in chapter 3 – where ELOAH is singular & the post Exilic Yisroe’lite clan god ‘YHWH’ does not appear in the mangled text copies)

Actually the masculine sg EL is the NAME of the Ugaritic (‘Syro-Phoenecian’) high clan god of the ‘Ugaritic Canaanites’ whose main cult centers were found all the way from present day Lebanon down to Jebus (later, Yerushalyaim) and Hevron in the south – EL was a major Canaanite clan-god who had goddess-wives & pairs of gods as children – the cult of EL was mixed ‘syncretistically’ with other Levantine god-cults, including the tent dwelling invader cult of YHWH around the time of David – whose son ‘Jedediah’ (i.e. ‘Sholomon’) worshipped a variety of clan-gods on Mt Moriah, an ancient Jebusite holy site (Sholomon’s mother was the Jebusite princess 'Bath-Shebiti' – ‘daughter of the 7 gods’ – aka Bathsheba).

But to speak of YHWH as the ONLY ‘true god’ is clearly apologetic and nonsensical (reflecting a post-Exilic political situation in Eretz-Yisro’el after c. 420 BCE i.e. after the monotheistic reforms of Ezra etal.) and has no place in this Discussion – it would be like saying Grover Cleveland was the ONLY true President of the US and all other US Presidents are False Presidents.

Also avoid using the term ‘THE LORD’ when you refer to YHWH, the clan god. You may use either the Tetragrammaton YHWH or the pointed-pronounceable name with vowels ‘Yahweh’ but when the paleoHeb unpointed texts write 'YHWH' (Yod-He-Vav-He) then it is better to use YHWH.

Using THE LORD would be like an American historian using the term ‘THE PRESIDENT’ always to refer to Abraham Lincoln and no other US President when speaking of periods other than 1860-1865.

Your translations therefore need tweeking e.g. Yahweh (YHWH):

which could derive from the paleo Heb verb hyy – ‘to be’ or 'to cause to live' = see Exod chapter 3

אהיה אשר אהיה – heyah esher heyah – possibly ‘I cause to live whom I cause to live’ or possibly ‘I Am who I AM’ (in other words, ‘Mind your own business about my Name’) - but the Jury is out on the actual grammatical relation between YHWH and HEYAH.

The phrase could even mean: ‘I am ASHUR I am’ – NB: the male god Ashur was the clan god of the Assyrians - who (like YHWH) had four FACES - i.e. The face of a Man, the face of an Ox, the face of an Eagle and the face of a Lion –

see Hez. Ch 1 and Ch 10 etc. – sound familiar?

Evidently by the time of the prophet Hezekiel, the cult of the Four Faced God Ashur of the Assyrians (whose armies had invaded Eretz Yisro’el c. 721 – 701 BCE) had been thoroughly syncretised (i.e. cultically mixed in) with the cult of YHWH & EL in Canaan –

Ashur’s ‘goddess wife’ was the goddess ASHERAH, the ‘wife of YHWH’ according to preExilic inscriptions found in Palestine dating from c. 700 BCE – she was expelledby Ezra and his reactionary ilk coming back from Babylon c. 440 BCE (only 4 of the orig 24 priestly families exiled ever came back & the ones that did were hard-liner Yahwists who brooked no clan-god competition !)

Here are some ‘better’ (=more acccurate) translations

YHWH Yireh: you wrote : “The Lord will provide.” [Better translation would be = ‘YHWH (=Yahweh) sees [all]’
Yahweh Nissi: you wrote “The Lord is my Banner.” [Better translation would be something like : YHWH [Yahweh] is [my] Ensign’]
Yahweh Shalom: you wrote “The Lord is Peace.” [Better : ‘YHWH is [our] Peace’]
Yahweh Sabbaoth: you wrote “The Lord of Hosts.” [ Better : YHWH [the god of heavenly] Armies]
Yahweh Shammah: you wrote “The Lord is there.” = Better : YHWH [dwells] in this Place”
Yahweh Elohim Israel: you wrote “The Lord, the God of Israel.” - better ‘YHWH, the clan-god of Yisro’el’

Clear as mud?

Maybe God is many on earth as he appears to us humans, who says Jesus can not be in more than one place at once, he probably can.

But what people forget is also that this God has a Throne when above earth, forget what happens on earth God can be what he wants, his true form is beyond Elohim. Even the Angels are said to be extentions of God him self, they are different parts of him that do his work, no point being a God if there is no glory in it, it is an expression to have family we all seek family rather than lonelyness if one needs reason.


So you have a single point in heaven where God sits, what God does on earth or appears varies in different forms, God does not have to appear humanoid all the time, sometimes he is a cloud sometimes as fire or burning bush.

reply to post by Sigismundus


ok, alot of info but not necessarily correct.
undo set me seeking months ago and she is correct.
HAYAH HAYAH is the name given in the original text.
So no way can it be ASHER.
for the name you give here, HEYAH ASHER HEYAH. Can I have a source for this usage please? I am sure undo will be along soon to share her research with you. It really is easy to verify this yourself once you get the hang of verifying the original text. I AM I AM or HAYAH HAYAH is accurate. And the Lord came in His Fathers name, Yashayah. There is but one Lord, and He is Yah. Yes, there are a multitude of gods but one LORD.

the sopherim amended the name YHWH to Adonai 134 times. They added asher. I never thought about the possibilities they added asher to confuse and imply ashur. Interesting indeed. The reslults from Kenites? Most of the sopherim had noble intentions I am sure, but not all. Certainly not all. I find it interesting that through all that and thousands of years later we can still debate what was in the original teaxts.
It puts to shame all those ignorant comments that scripture is the result of a translation upon a translation upon a translation...

reply to post by manna2

Hi Mannah

EHYEH asher Ehyeh - is very very very strange unpointed paleoHebrew - untranslatable actually.- the text is corrupt in the MT and practically everywhere else. It is NOT expressed with the Tetragrammaton YHWH - which is likewise untranslatable. Ask any Rebbe, and they will tell you straightaway that 'no one knows, only G-d knows !!'

The word ('-SH-R) (e.g. ESHER) COULD be the paleoHeb relative pronoun (ESHER - 'that which is') if you point the Aleph as an 'E' vowel - so it could mean 'I am WHO I am' (in other words, I am NOT telling you my name !) or conceivably, 'I cause to survive whom I cause to survive' in other words, 'I decide who lives and who dies...') etc.

But Aleph is a consonant (gutteral) and not really equivalent to any vowel sound (e.g. Light - 'OR is pointed with an O sound, and Urrim (veThummim) is pointed with a U sound).

So 'SH-R could refer to the god ASH'R, the clan god of Assyria who had 4 faces like the god-vision in the book of Hezekiel (c. 550 BCE)

Make sense now?

reply to post by Sigismundus


i think it's pretty easy, once you relinquish your tight grip on texts written before the discovery of the sumerian and akkadian texts, to find EL in sumerian-akkadian texts. what we have here is 4000 years of criticial texts, theses, religious writs, discussing yahweh and jehovah and el, and ignoring the source.

for example,

enlil was el

EN.LIL = LIL
LIL = IL
IL = EL
EL = AL

that covers every god name from enlil to al'lah.

how do i know this? he was angry at noise in reproduction of humans and ordered the flood.
he was sacrificed to by the sumerian noah figure upon his disembarking from the ark. he forgave the survivors, as a result and made a pact with them. don't recall the details off the top of my head

EA (enki) was EL

how do i know this? his name was pronounced AYAH. lol
he was attributed with changing the languages at babel.
he was attributed with informing the sumerian equivalent of noah, of the impending flood. and how to build an ark to escape it and how to appease the anger of enlil when enlil found out some humans had survived the flood, by making a sacrifice to him after getting off the ark.
etc.

Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by manna2

Hi Mannah

EHYEH asher Ehyeh - is very very very strange unpointed paleoHebrew - untranslatable actually.- the text is corrupt in the MT and practically everywhere else. It is NOT expressed with the Tetragrammaton YHWH - which is likewise untranslatable. Ask any Rebbe, and they will tell you straightaway that 'no one knows, only G-d knows !!'

The word ('-SH-R) (e.g. ESHER) COULD be the paleoHeb relative pronoun (ESHER - 'that which is') if you point the Aleph as an 'E' vowel - so it could mean 'I am WHO I am' (in other words, I am NOT telling you my name !) or conceivably, 'I cause to survive whom I cause to survive' in other words, 'I decide who lives and who dies...') etc.

But Aleph is a consonant (gutteral) and not really equivalent to any vowel sound (e.g. Light - 'OR is pointed with an O sound, and Urrim (veThummim) is pointed with a U sound).

So 'SH-R could refer to the god ASH'R, the clan god of Assyria who had 4 faces like the god-vision in the book of Hezekiel (c. 550 BCE)

Make sense now?

here's the verse.

Exd 3:14 And God 430 said 559 unto Moses 4872, I AM 1961 THAT I AM 1961: and he said 559, Thus shalt thou say 559 unto the children 1121 of Israel 3478, I AM hath sent 7971 me unto you.

every word with a number after it, was in the original text. every word without a number after it, was not in the original text. so the verse, once the extraneous words are removed, reads:

God said Moses, I AM I AM. said, say children Israel I AM sent.

the word order is obviously not quite accurate due to hebrew having different sentence structure, but that's the basic idea.

So it wasn't I AM THAT I AM, it was I AM I AM.
of course, that could be argued if you have access to hebrew texts that list it otherwise, but i think it's more accurate. it implies a few things i'd rather not elaborate on at the moment, but the words there are
hayah hayah,

reply to post by soaringhawk


elohim made adam male and female. you can't ignore that.
they made it sound like adam was a single guy by using the word "man" instead of adam.
and i just proved that 'adam was used to refer to mankind (that includes womankind).
eve is just the first wife. they didn't have procreative partners before that. see you have to consider all the other little nuances as well, such as why there was NOW pain in childbirth as if to say they already had a way to create new adamic people that wasn't painful and suddenly it was painful.

it's the underlying message of the text that reveals the rest of the data. you have to really read it like it's extremely condensed information in which every word is important, every implication is important.

Originally posted by manna2
reply to post by breakherlegs

 

this is tricky. I am leaning that Lilith was lucifer, the female twin of Cain. Lucy or lucifer is female. She hated bth Adam and especially Eve as her Father was Samael, not Adam. She was the one who elevated herself above Adam and her mother Eve in legend to her followers and progeny. But I have alot to look into now with undo's work enlightening me to this work she has done. I now have to consider if lilith is the first creation and WAS there before Eve.

hmmm, lilith named after EN.LIL?. questions, queries, posers.

it bugs me everytime i see it. i can't wrap my head around it yet. when i think i've identified her in sumerian texts, something else pops up that seems to suggest otherwise.

Adam knew Eve. that means he had sex with her. "knew" there is yada`
which means to know, to have knowledge.

that my friend is the knowledge of "good and evil" . the evil was how badly this new ability to create new life like the gods, was going to hurt humanity, and enlil's warning that if they didn't abide by the no sex rule, they'd die, was a foreshadowing of the nerf to our DNA, making us mortal, procreating trouble about to happen.

and this proves that procreation was the big sin (and of course, our decision to not listen). the ability to procreate. to be wife and husband.
sex was a no-no because there was no way to control the population growth, which obviously impacted availability of food, environmental concerns (and enlil was a big environmentalist. for example, he told gilgamesh not to cut down a cedar wood forest to build his city of uruk because the trees would never grow back, but gilgamesh did it anyway).

some have said well then why did he say to go forth be fruitful and multiply. it says multiply not procreate.

rabah
1) be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous

a) (Qal)

1) to become many, become numerous, multiply (of people, animals, things)

2) to be or grow great

b) (Piel) to make large, enlarge, increase, become many

c) (Hiphil)

1) to make much, make many, have many

a) to multiply, increase

b) to make much to do, do much in respect of, transgress greatly

c) to increase greatly or exceedingly

2) to make great, enlarge, do much

2) (Qal) to shoot

although i guess you could argue that's procreate, i don't think so.

Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it! It means procreate and that's all it means! You are a twister of the scripture, you lie on purpose to spread your new age garbage. I go for fact and fact alone. You can't pull the hood over my eyes with your mystery babylon 'knowledge'.

Originally posted by soaringhawk
Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it! It means procreate and that's all it means! You are a twister of the scripture, you lie on purpose to spread your new age garbage. I go for fact and fact alone. You can't pull the hood over my eyes with your mystery babylon 'knowledge'.

i'm not a new ager, i'm giving you the data straight from the text.
i don't belong to any occult schools of knowledge or secret socieites. i don't follow any particular
religion, i just study the data right where it is, remove from my mind any prior influence, so i'm reading the text exactly as it is written. consider the question, why was it said that there would now be pain in childbirth if the creation of new humans was not possible before that, and without pain? it was an after effect of the change to Eve's DNA, that she would give birth like the mammals, and it would be painful.
reaaaaad the text.

and why did adam suddenly call her wife if she was capable of producing offspring via procreation before that? why did all this focus on, and hover around, adam having knowledge of eve and eve having knowledge of adam (having procreative sex) and her becoming the wife and god getting mad and saying,

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said , Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil : and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever

........so he sent them away from the tree of life. who did? jehovah elohim, not just elohim but jehovah elohim specifically. i think here moses is trying to accentuate who is in charge of the elohim, as well as describing how this situation was going to be dealt with. in other words this is the point where their DNA is further nerfed by removing access to the section that would've been essentially immortal bodies. the tree of life. what is the tree of life, soaring?

Sigismundus and undo, thanks for the dialogue. Great stuff here. And to think of how this thread started.