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PIRACY - Should not be a crime... here is why:, page 3
privacy
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 06:55 PM by coyotepoet
reply to post by GringoViejo
That is the point that I make all the time, sharing a musicians album with someone else (and really, what is the difference between sharing with a friend or neighbor vs. sharing with someone in another state or country?) amounts to free viral marketing, especially for a musician that is not heard on the radio 5-8 times/day. The more people that know about a musician, the bigger the pool of potential customers of CD's and performances. Who, especially these days, drops $16 on the CD of a musician they have never heard/heard of? Or pays $20-80 bucks to go to a concert of someone they don't know and love?
he doesn't mind if people don't always pay for a CD, or pay to get into a show. If someone hears his music and likes it, he doesn't care how they heard it.
That is the point that I make all the time, sharing a musicians album with someone else (and really, what is the difference between sharing with a friend or neighbor vs. sharing with someone in another state or country?) amounts to free viral marketing, especially for a musician that is not heard on the radio 5-8 times/day. The more people that know about a musician, the bigger the pool of potential customers of CD's and performances. Who, especially these days, drops $16 on the CD of a musician they have never heard/heard of? Or pays $20-80 bucks to go to a concert of someone they don't know and love?
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 07:13 PM by coyotepoet
reply to post by lellomackin
No, of course not, plus, that is an idiotic argument. First of all, musicians only see about $1.60 in profit from the sale of a $16 CD, the rest goes to the label and the industry. Concerts have always been the major way musicians make money.
Secondly, they are working for their money when they play a show. Hell, I'll drop a dollar in a busker's instrument case because I appreciate the effort and the product. However, with recorded material, they lay it down once and it is done having become a bunch of instantaneously transferrable digital 1's and 0's.
Finally, like I said in my above post. No one is going to go to the concert of a band that they don't know. Some bands, starting out, will play all sorts of free shows just to get their name out there. Why not sling around a lot of free 1's and 0's so that they don't have to work so hard playing the free shows and are able, by that means of marketing, to fill up a concert.
If you want a great example of this check out Girl Talk. Girl Talk is one guy and his laptop. His albums are composed entirely of other people's samples, most if not all without permission, citing fair use. His latest is "All Day" and is a 70 min album with 375 samples. With no advertising or announcements he released it for free on his website in the middle of the night available at Girl Talk's site: Illegal Art. I went to a sold out Girl Talk concert of 3000 people when he came to my town. The merchandise vendors who travel with him said that virtually every venue he plays is like that. He is doing extremely well for himself and he's a super pirate.The only reason it is still illegal is because it cut's out the label and the "industry" as the middle man.
Further more:
So, you are in favor of bands giving away free tickets to all their shows? I mean they are playing already right? If they sell one ticket they have to play for that person anyway and everyone else should be let in for free. What's the difference if there is one person there or a thousand?
No, of course not, plus, that is an idiotic argument. First of all, musicians only see about $1.60 in profit from the sale of a $16 CD, the rest goes to the label and the industry. Concerts have always been the major way musicians make money.
Secondly, they are working for their money when they play a show. Hell, I'll drop a dollar in a busker's instrument case because I appreciate the effort and the product. However, with recorded material, they lay it down once and it is done having become a bunch of instantaneously transferrable digital 1's and 0's.
Finally, like I said in my above post. No one is going to go to the concert of a band that they don't know. Some bands, starting out, will play all sorts of free shows just to get their name out there. Why not sling around a lot of free 1's and 0's so that they don't have to work so hard playing the free shows and are able, by that means of marketing, to fill up a concert.
If you want a great example of this check out Girl Talk. Girl Talk is one guy and his laptop. His albums are composed entirely of other people's samples, most if not all without permission, citing fair use. His latest is "All Day" and is a 70 min album with 375 samples. With no advertising or announcements he released it for free on his website in the middle of the night available at Girl Talk's site: Illegal Art. I went to a sold out Girl Talk concert of 3000 people when he came to my town. The merchandise vendors who travel with him said that virtually every venue he plays is like that. He is doing extremely well for himself and he's a super pirate.The only reason it is still illegal is because it cut's out the label and the "industry" as the middle man.
Further more:
All Day by Girl Talk is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial license. The CC license does not interfere with the rights you have under the fair use doctrine, which gives you permission to make certain uses of the work even for commercial purposes. Also, the CC license does not grant rights to non-transformative use of the source material Girl Talk used to make the album.
edit on 16-11-2011 by coyotepoet because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 08:41 PM by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by AlertInMi
*AHEM*
en.wikipedia.org...
reply to post by byteshertz
Oh... Well Hello there....
reply to post by Hellhound604
Oh.... Well.... hello..... there....
If you make piracy legal, the quality of product and or services will go down hill fast.
If software was free, do you think we would have windows 7?
*AHEM*
en.wikipedia.org...
reply to post by byteshertz
*cough*
Linux
*cough*
Oh... Well Hello there....
reply to post by Hellhound604
Have you ever heard of Free Software, like Linux....
Oh.... Well.... hello..... there....
edit on 16-11-2011 by ErtaiNaGia because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 09:05 PM by mudbeed
Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by AlertInMi
If you make piracy legal, the quality of product and or services will go down hill fast.
If software was free, do you think we would have windows 7?
*AHEM*
en.wikipedia.org...
reply to post by byteshertz
*cough*
Linux
*cough*
Oh... Well Hello there....
reply to post by Hellhound604
Have you ever heard of Free Software, like Linux....
Oh.... Well.... hello..... there....
edit on 16-11-2011 by ErtaiNaGia because: (no reason given)
I don't want to get into a stupid Linux vs Windows vs Apple pissing match, but for most people Linux isn't a honest option and most people know this.
Not that things like Ubuntu or Yellow Dog didn't help... but those still required more setup than a "Grandma Mayvis" or "Aunt June" can handle.
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 09:43 PM by Blaine91555
reply to post by byteshertz
Interesting argument, but thieves will always be thieves. I'm amazed how many on here try to justify stealing and know it reveals who they really are inside. Rationalizing stealing is something only a thief in denial would attempt to do.
Why would you steal something you don't want? If you want it, why would you not want the creator to earn something for their work? If it's something you don't want, why steal it in the first place?
I'd say if its not important enough you are willing to buy it and you take it anyway it's a way of life and an obsession. No amount of excuse making will change that.
People do it because they think they can do it without getting caught, so what the hell, steal it. Get caught and see how many people will hire you knowing you can't be trusted. See if the courts care if you make false excuses for being a criminal.
You must be feeling guilty to even attempt to rationalize committing a theft of intellectual property. Just like a product you might shoplift in a store it takes work and money to create it. Some may not resort to breaking and entering or shoplifting only because they are fearful of the consequences, but if they do this they are highly likely to go further. Once you decide the world owes you, you cross the line.
I'd bet if I stole something you worked for or created you would scream at the top of your lungs. Can I break into your home and take your stuff? I won't buy it, but hey why not steal it as it's not stealing since I won't buy it. Same thing.
Interesting argument, but thieves will always be thieves. I'm amazed how many on here try to justify stealing and know it reveals who they really are inside. Rationalizing stealing is something only a thief in denial would attempt to do.
Why would you steal something you don't want? If you want it, why would you not want the creator to earn something for their work? If it's something you don't want, why steal it in the first place?
I'd say if its not important enough you are willing to buy it and you take it anyway it's a way of life and an obsession. No amount of excuse making will change that.
People do it because they think they can do it without getting caught, so what the hell, steal it. Get caught and see how many people will hire you knowing you can't be trusted. See if the courts care if you make false excuses for being a criminal.
You must be feeling guilty to even attempt to rationalize committing a theft of intellectual property. Just like a product you might shoplift in a store it takes work and money to create it. Some may not resort to breaking and entering or shoplifting only because they are fearful of the consequences, but if they do this they are highly likely to go further. Once you decide the world owes you, you cross the line.
I'd bet if I stole something you worked for or created you would scream at the top of your lungs. Can I break into your home and take your stuff? I won't buy it, but hey why not steal it as it's not stealing since I won't buy it. Same thing.
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 10:41 PM by chr0naut
reply to post by byteshertz
What you are calling piracy is, in fact, unauthorized duplication and distribution of copyrighted material. When called by its real name, it is hard to get any emotional response from the public, so they had to give it a "snappy" title.
By default rights are automatically assigned to the creator of a work (Mechanical Copyright). Distribution and duplication rights can then be apportioned by contract to specific third parties if the creator of the work assigns these rights.
Record companies have several times attempted to sue original creators of works for duplicating and distributing their own works. i,e; the recording and distribution companies themselves are guilty of what they call piracy and have so little concept of the intent of the law that they believe they have the high ground.
True piracy involves organized property theft with violence, especially at sea. Check it out in a dictionary.
Copyright infringement is not piracy.
What you are calling piracy is, in fact, unauthorized duplication and distribution of copyrighted material. When called by its real name, it is hard to get any emotional response from the public, so they had to give it a "snappy" title.
By default rights are automatically assigned to the creator of a work (Mechanical Copyright). Distribution and duplication rights can then be apportioned by contract to specific third parties if the creator of the work assigns these rights.
Record companies have several times attempted to sue original creators of works for duplicating and distributing their own works. i,e; the recording and distribution companies themselves are guilty of what they call piracy and have so little concept of the intent of the law that they believe they have the high ground.
True piracy involves organized property theft with violence, especially at sea. Check it out in a dictionary.
Copyright infringement is not piracy.
edit on 16/11/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 10:44 PM by Reptius
reply to post by byteshertz
I could not agree with you more. It's a shame so many of us have been brainwashed by corporations and others to believe that piracy is wrong or like stealing when it clearly isn't. Too bad it's most likely that the human species will die out before they figure it out. So is the nature of man though. Blind to his own arogance.
I could not agree with you more. It's a shame so many of us have been brainwashed by corporations and others to believe that piracy is wrong or like stealing when it clearly isn't. Too bad it's most likely that the human species will die out before they figure it out. So is the nature of man though. Blind to his own arogance.
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 10:48 PM by byteshertz
Originally posted by StevenDye
reply to post by byteshertz
So can you tell me how I update the novel I spent months and months writing?
Or how I update the song I spent months writing, refining and then recording?
Or how I update the short film I wrote, funded, directed and then spent months editing?
You say people need to update and stay ahead, but that only related to the method of delivery, and that isn't possible. I can' update my film to keep it fresh, I can only update what it is delivered on to make it harder to copy, and that requires the device it is played on to be constantly updated too.
But it doesn't work that way round, I have to wait for the device to be updated before I can update my form of delivery so soemones probably cracked the key by the time I get there anyway. Never mind I've cut out a tonne of my market because they don't have this weeks new player.
And these players will get steadily more expensive as they have to be able to unlock more and more protection methods to protect the media under both the current and old methods of protecting it.
So it simply becomes too expensive to be worth it, people stop making these forms of media, and everything reverts back to how it is today. With copyright laws in place so that it is a commerically viable business again.
Software on the other hand can be updated, but not all of it. Some software will do its purpose and can't be updated anymore. You can only take a weather widget so far before it does everything it needs to do. How can you update that? Well you can't so in your eyes too bad, because you managed to make it do everything you now have no 'protection' against people who would like to pirate it.edit on 16-11-2011 by StevenDye because: (no reason given)
Hi Stevendye,
Great argument mate, and I see your point, however how is it any different than it is currently - Books are very easy to get a hold of through online sharing networks, yet nobody seems to download them much compared to music and movies.
There is something about a book that is special that an electronic copy just does not amount to - people will still buy the books because they enjoy like owning the physical item, there is nothing like a freshly new hard cover book with beautiful pages and in some cases illistrations.
People can easily lend books to their friends right now under the current system, they can run off photocopies - and nobody would be the wiser.. but people don't** because they enjoy the physical possesion of a quality book as much as they enjoy the text contained within it.
As with the software upgradeability issue, I have to disagree. Software can always be improoved in some way, even if it is just a small component of a larger system, the complexity of our current programming level languages means it will always have ways it can be re-written and improved upon. Also in the system I am proposing if you knew your code could be used for years to come and would not profit you further you would simply charge a higher price that both you and the company agree on if you are a contractor - or in the case you are employed full time what you wrote is no longer your property under the current system anyway as the company would have an intellectual property clause in your employment contract stipulating whatever you create while working for them would be their property.
** Educational books are the exception to this rule but they are also heavily copied under the current system and nobody is punished for it any more as Movies and Music are more profitable to chase.
edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 10:59 PM by byteshertz
Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by byteshertz
What you are calling piracy is, in fact, unauthorized duplication and distribution of copyrighted material. When called by its real name, it is hard to get any emotional response from the public, so they had to give it a "snappy" title.
By default rights are automatically assigned to the creator of a work (Mechanical Copyright). Distribution and duplication rights can then be apportioned by contract to specific third parties if the creator of the work assigns these rights.
Record companies have several times attempted to sue original creators of works for duplicating and distributing their own works. i,e; the recording and distribution companies themselves are guilty of what they call piracy and have so little concept of the intent of the law that they believe they have the high ground.
True piracy involves organized property theft with violence, especially at sea. Check it out in a dictionary.
Copyright infringement is not piracy.
edit on 16/11/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)
Hi chr0naut,
Very true thank you for pointing that out - I used the term piracy as it is the name most people associate with the illegal act of unauthorized duplication and distribution of copyrighted material, but what you say is a very valid point. It is not even piracy by definition it is just a title applied to encourage a negative association.
Thanks,
edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)
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