PIRACY - Should not be a crime... here is why:

So, you are in favor of bands giving away free tickets to all their shows?

I mean they are playing already right? If they sell one ticket they have to play for that person anyway and everyone else should be let in for free. What's the difference if there is one person there or a thousand?

Originally posted by GringoViejo
hmmm... how do I put this...

I have a friend who is a musician, and he's achieved a fair amount of success (not mtv success, but I hear they don't play music anymore anyways) and while he certainly likes to be paid for what he does, he is proud of hs work and it is work, he doesn't mind if people don't always pay for a CD, or pay to get into a show. If someone hears his music and likes it, he doesn't care how they heard it.

If I had achieved the success in the music industry he has I feel I would think the same way.

I agree with you.
In my humble opinion, I think music should be free to download.
Quite a lot of musicians genuinely do make music because they want to make music.
If you take the big money out of it, the music industry would lose all the vile corporate produced crap that saturates the industry.
X factor etc would be gone!!!!
If the bands, musicians, singer songwriters etc want to earn a wage, get your ass on tour, if it turns out that they're crap and had their voices auto tuned in the studio, then the fans will soon find them out.

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by Resinveins
You might want to specify that it's internet piracy or intellectual property piracy.

You might get some excited responses from Somalia otherwise

Haha yeah, I should be more specific but I don't want people thinking this stops on the internet, I am attacking all patent law, because it doesnt stop in the virtual world. Thanks for reading

You're against ALL patents? Really? That makes no sense. Why in the world would any company ever invest time and money into developing a superior product if ANYONE could just replicate it?

Ending all patent protection would be a great start if your goal was stifling innovation.

Because as I stated in my OP they have the advantage of a headstart over everyone else.
They make their money while others try to work out how to copy it, by the time the others catch up they should have a newer improoved version and so on - this way technology and product quality and features advance, instead of ending up with basic products that have been round for years still being the same price or more expensive years on

edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

So if a company invests 6 years creating something but once it is done I could figure out how to copy it in 1 year, thats ok since they had a headstart? No, thats not ok, I'm stealing from their investment to create it in the first place (that is what patents are for).

The rest of your rant is just the typical 'they already have too much money so I don't have to pay'. I suspect if we met face to face you wouldn't steal money from my pocket, but you seem fine stealing from me by not paying for the thing I create.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well, since few of us are movie stars or professional music performers....I wonder if I might throw out a different example on this which falls just as squarely within the thread topic for relevance.

Let's say I spend months or more writing the ultimate widget utility for PC's. For the example, lets say it's something I've toyed with in the back of my mind for years. Just the ultimate in ideas and a need to be filled. I'm so proud of my new creation and the fact it might just pay my bills and help me make a Christmas for my family. So, I copyright my new piece of software and go through the process of testing it, setting up net marketing and everything necessary to properly bring it to market and declare my new contribution to the world. I'm all set right?

Then... much to my dismay...I sell a few copies and it stops. Maybe I sell a few hundred at a $5 or $10 a copy. However, the boom I was starting to see build kinda flattens out and dies out. What did I do wrong?? Bugs? Well, no.... I check my support forums and email..nothing there. No complaints I haven't handled. I've done everything right! Wait...let me check something..... Oh, now I find my widget is on Pirate Bay, every Torrent service known to man and googling my widget title no longer has my site in the top 10 but somewhere far down below the PIRATE links to steal it.


Now.... From your side of the argument, you'd just be one little person among many stealing my family's Christmas from them. $5 theft in your case. Together though...it does more than bust my dreams into pieces...it robs me of my ability to earn a living the right way. All this because Piracy is not just tolerated, but coming to be accepted and even DEMANDED as some kind of warped "right".

Sorry if my take is about polar opposite to the premise of the thread, in saying Piracy may really be Okay...and NO I haven't paid for every single thing I have, either. However, I won't pretend the movie, song or widget I download is anything but what it is. Stolen Property... We need to at least be honest about it and not play semantics to make it sound perfectly innocent. Someone out there isn't getting the revenue they are depending on to avoid becoming an OWS camp resident.

Thanks for your view, and no need to appologise a polar view is welcomed and encouraged to be expressed by me.
Your name is on the product from day one, this gives you an immediate advantage in the market.
If your price is reasonable people will continue to pay for your trusted name, if someone else can produce it more cheaply or undersells your product your revenue will dry up - but they also had to do the work involved to replicate your work, the more measures you put in place to stop their ability to copy the more work they are required to do to reproduce the product.
If you continue to update your product people will continue to pay for your more advanced features, if you sit back and let your technology age without being upgraded to keep up with the eveolutions then like everything else in this world your revenue will eventually stop.
Our whole mentality is wrong we think we can produce one idea and sit back and do nothing while others work for the rest of our lives. We think our money (effectively another word for "work owed") should make money.

I am saying this is holding us back as a species and we need to realise that in order for things to work everybody should be working, and those that come up with ideas get the natural advantage that comes with being the creator of being first.
I know this can seem like an extreme point of view but if we look at nature it is all around us, the dinosaurs were well built killing machines, but they did not keep up with evolution - so they died off.
If a caveman built a spear, and another caveman from an opposing clan saw it he copies it - this is natural. The creative caveman needs to continue to modify his weapon to stay ahead of his opponent, he has an advantage because his spear is already made, he knows it better than his opponent and he has practical experience with it in the real world.

Originally posted by lellomackin
So, you are in favor of bands giving away free tickets to all their shows?

I mean they are playing already right? If they sell one ticket they have to play for that person anyway and everyone else should be let in for free. What's the difference if there is one person there or a thousand?

that reminds me of Jean-Michel Jarre's concerts. I guess he knows it is mainly techno-freaks that attends his concerts, and it seems as though he doesn't mind that almost everybody records his concerts on their phones, etc. I was at his last concert over here in Oslo, and for the last song, he invited the people that wasn't recording his show, to switch on their cell-phones, and show it to the cameras, and he made that part of the show. No recording of his shows can ever come close to the real-life experience; now if he can be like it, why not other artists. If an artist is good enough, that (pirated) copy will just entice you to listen more to his/her music, and see his/her concerts...

Originally posted by Zaphod

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by Resinveins
You might want to specify that it's internet piracy or intellectual property piracy.

You might get some excited responses from Somalia otherwise

Haha yeah, I should be more specific but I don't want people thinking this stops on the internet, I am attacking all patent law, because it doesnt stop in the virtual world. Thanks for reading

You're against ALL patents? Really? That makes no sense. Why in the world would any company ever invest time and money into developing a superior product if ANYONE could just replicate it?

Ending all patent protection would be a great start if your goal was stifling innovation.

Because as I stated in my OP they have the advantage of a headstart over everyone else.
They make their money while others try to work out how to copy it, by the time the others catch up they should have a newer improoved version and so on - this way technology and product quality and features advance, instead of ending up with basic products that have been round for years still being the same price or more expensive years on

edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

So if a company invests 6 years creating something but once it is done I could figure out how to copy it in 1 year, thats ok since they had a headstart? No, thats not ok, I'm stealing from their investment to create it in the first place (that is what patents are for).
The rest of your rant is just the typical 'they already have too much money so I don't have to pay'. I suspect if we met face to face you wouldn't steal money from my pocket, but you seem fine stealing from me by not paying for the thing I create.

If I could replicate (not stealing) the money in your pocket I sure as hell would (if we were in the days of gold not our current system where money is created through debt).
As far as the 'they already have too much money so I don't have to pay' argument you claim I used I would like you to show me where I said anything that resembles that.
Simply a company would no longer spend 6 years creating a product that could be replicated in 1 year, they would shorten/lower their initial investment and spread it over multiple installments throughout the versions.

Taking the example used earlier of MS Windows, They spend years between releases, If a new OS popped up and was allowed to copy their design, they would soon just add incremental updates which people would pay for as they came out instead of buying a bulk package. No one would use the competitive product unless it was cheaper or they were bringing out their own features that windows did not offer before Microsoft.

For a physical product, this may include attachments or improved efficiency - just think products that are created from design to be expandable and upgradable because the company want's people to continue buying from them. Less products being thrown away and less waste by society as a whole.

If I could replicate (not stealing) the money in your pocket I sure as hell would (if we were in the days of gold not our current system where money is created through debt).
As far as the 'they already have too much money so I don't have to pay' argument you claim I used I would like you to show me where I said anything that resembles that.
Simply a company would no longer spend 6 years creating a product that could be replicated in 1 year, they would shorten/lower their initial investment and spread it over multiple installments throughout the versions.

edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

On the replicate: You haven't taken an economics class have you? Replicating that money incresae the supply and reduces it's value, so you have taken 'value' from me.

For the millonaire comment, that was by another poster "People already make millions off software" sorry I attributed it to you.

May I ask how old you are and what you do for a living? I suspect it's not related to the creation of ideas (music, software, etc) but could be wrong.

Piracy is the same as stealing someone else's work and not compensating them for it.
How do you feel being robbed/taxed/ forced to give the money you earned away?

Piracy is wrong.

Originally posted by Zaphod

If I could replicate (not stealing) the money in your pocket I sure as hell would (if we were in the days of gold not our current system where money is created through debt).
As far as the 'they already have too much money so I don't have to pay' argument you claim I used I would like you to show me where I said anything that resembles that.
Simply a company would no longer spend 6 years creating a product that could be replicated in 1 year, they would shorten/lower their initial investment and spread it over multiple installments throughout the versions.

edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

On the replicate: You haven't taken an economics class have you? Replicating that money incresae the supply and reduces it's value, so you have taken 'value' from me.

For the millonaire comment, that was by another poster "People already make millions off software" sorry I attributed it to you.

May I ask how old you are and what you do for a living? I suspect it's not related to the creation of ideas (music, software, etc) but could be wrong.

I am 29, I am a former telecommunications specialist specialising in wireless technology, I currently work in insurance but sell software I write and websites I design on the side. I am upper middle class.

With replicating monetry items you are correct when you say replicating money takes the value from someone else, this is not the same when someone replicates a product, because that product can be upgraded to ensure it's value continues where this is not an option for money.

I understand why other programmers think patent law should stay in place, but the fact is the mentality that we can come up with one idea and reap a lifetime (or generations) of rewards from it forever is flawed and is only works because it enforced by law, it is not how nature works and it as stated previously it is holding us back as a species. I am saying a better system is that If you have a good idea sell a product that uses it, but be prepared to think of new ideas and put more work in as is required to stay ahead.

dbl post

Originally posted by VforVendettea
Piracy is the same as stealing someone else's work and not compensating them for it.

*facepalm* not even going to justify your ignorance with an answer that is already in my OP.

How do you feel being robbed/taxed/ forced to give the money you earned away?

What you mean like the taxes that currently exist for just about everything?

Or do you mean like when I am forced to bail out big companies?

Or do you mean when I am robbed of my freedom to exist because everything is owned, created and modified by everyone else - often people that no longer exist and their families inherit the profit from their idea, modification or creation for generations to come?

Piracy is wrong.

You can keep repeating it to yourself until you believe it but it doesnt make it true.
Piracy is illegal, that does not make it morally wrong.

Originally posted by byteshertz
I am 29, I am a former telecommunications specialist specialising in wireless technology, I currently work in insurance but sell software I write and websites I design on the side. I am upper middle class.

With replicating monetry items you are correct when you say replicating money takes the value from someone else, this is not the same when someone replicates a product, because that product can be upgraded to ensure it's value continues where this is not an option for money.

I understand why other programmers think patent law should stay in place, but the fact is the mentality that we can come up with one idea and reap a lifetime (or generations) of rewards from it forever is flawed and is only works because it enforced by law, it is not how nature works and it as stated previously it is holding us back as a species. I am saying a better system is that If you have a good idea sell a product that uses it, but be prepared to think of new ideas and put more work in as is required to stay ahead.

edit on 16-11-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

Patent law does not give someone a lifetime or generations of protection, it gives them 17 years. Now, if you want to argue that number if too small or too large that is a differnt conversation. I'd argue for software patents, 3-5 years gives the required protections generally vs physical goods. But again, that is a different discussion than the one you are proposing.

I do agree that copyright law continues to be unreasonably extended by corporations pushing congress, again, a different issue than the one you raised. However, I wonder if that is the real disagreement you have with the system?

Give your theory, MS coudl literally sell one copy of Windows 8 and everyone else could simply copy it. If so, then MS should be able to charge a reasonable price for that single copy (which would be in the 100's of millions range) to support the model you are advocating. I vote you buy the first copy

Open source has proven that people will pay even when it's optional.

I and a friend make a decent bonus selling a few android apps. All of our apps are free, with a donate version as well. We have tried both with and without ad support.

We've noticed that quite a few people pay the measly .99 on average about a week or so after downloading the free app.

I have also worked on some themes for Firefox. I've had people donate $20 for a theme that took an hour to create.

Some of you people have sticks so far up the you know what it's comical. You have no involvement in the situation whatsoever yet you have the strongest and most condemning opinions. The world, it is a changin'. You better catch up for y'all get left behind.

reply to post by byteshertz


Funny how the developers are saying piracy isn't a big deal and the outsiders are saying it's horrible.

Corporate media works!

reply to post by AzureSky


They show them for free but they get paid for how many viewers they get from their sponsors. Like for instance if you like a certain TV show and absolutely hate commercials I would recommend watching the very frist episode of the season and the last episode just so your show will get the ratings and download the rest lol.

Here in England, its not a crime unless you are making money from it.

Its a civil offence and you cant go to prison for downloading or copying.

reply to post by lellomackin


Bands make all their money by doing shows, fans should support the artists by going to them and they arent paying the labels who are ripping off both the bands and customers, its a win win.

The only people who make money from record sales are the madonnas, stones, metallicas of the industry and they are hardly living on the breadline.

In 20 years time, you wont be able to buy music, it will all be free on the net. The parasitic labels will be extinct.

Information should be free anyways.

I think these copyright laws have gotten out of hand. If no one is profiting off of someone else's work, what's the problem? Most bands, developers and what not that I've seen/heard talk about this really don't think it's a big deal. It's the music industry that rapes the artists and is making all the money off of the CD's. They are the ones that would lose money, but put out a product people like and they will buy it. I'm not going to spend 20 bucks for a CD with two good songs on it, not going to happen.

Furthermore, someone touched on this already. So, let me get this straight. We're not allowed to copy or record anything that is copyrighted, yet we live in an age with things like DVD burners, VCR's, DVD recorders, cell phone cameras, high tech cameras and even tape decks are still around. We have all the tools we need to copy all this stuff, but it's illegal? It's ridiculous to me. Um, yeah, here's some stuff that'll let you copy illegal things, but don't do it! It's like we have speed limits, which I've never seen above 75mph and that's just in brief stretches of highway, yet you can't find a car that won't go at least 100mph. What's the point? Don't break the law, but here's something you can use to do it. Just an example of how laws just create criminals out of people that aren't criminals. It's kind of entrapment in a way, really. No point in having a car that goes over 75mph if it's illegal and no point in making things that allow us to easily copy things that are supposedly illegal. Zero point, none, except to create criminals and ensure people will break the law.

If the majority of artists don't care, then why should I? Having said that, I don't download a lot of copyrighted stuff. Someone mentioned Metallica, but they have backed off their stance and now don't care that people download their songs. If you make a quality product, people will buy it even if they can get it for free. The music industry, for example, took a nose dive after the 90's IMO and has never been the same.

reply to post by byteshertz


So can you tell me how I update the novel I spent months and months writing?
Or how I update the song I spent months writing, refining and then recording?
Or how I update the short film I wrote, funded, directed and then spent months editing?

You say people need to update and stay ahead, but that only related to the method of delivery, and that isn't possible. I can' update my film to keep it fresh, I can only update what it is delivered on to make it harder to copy, and that requires the device it is played on to be constantly updated too.

But it doesn't work that way round, I have to wait for the device to be updated before I can update my form of delivery so soemones probably cracked the key by the time I get there anyway. Never mind I've cut out a tonne of my market because they don't have this weeks new player.

And these players will get steadily more expensive as they have to be able to unlock more and more protection methods to protect the media under both the current and old methods of protecting it.

So it simply becomes too expensive to be worth it, people stop making these forms of media, and everything reverts back to how it is today. With copyright laws in place so that it is a commerically viable business again.


Software on the other hand can be updated, but not all of it. Some software will do its purpose and can't be updated anymore. You can only take a weather widget so far before it does everything it needs to do. How can you update that? Well you can't so in your eyes too bad, because you managed to make it do everything you now have no 'protection' against people who would like to pirate it.