Compelling and Convincing Evidence that Life was Created! What Say You?

We could take this "Alpha and Omega" debate to court and settle it once and for all! Your first thought is correct. Not a chance, because the case would be thrown out on the bases of hearsay inside of ten minutes. Your omnipotent being has had more than ample time to prove his existence. Maybe he would use his favorite method and send a man to say" yea he does cause he spoke to me in my head and I'm pretty sure it was'nt my conscience or nothing like that"! Even if it turned out to be like the movie with George Burns, the supreme being probably would do the the same as the pres. and ignore the subpoena because he is above the law and all of us.

Originally posted by ajay59
We could take this "Alpha and Omega" debate to court and settle it once and for all! Your first thought is correct. Not a chance, because the case would be thrown out on the bases of hearsay inside of ten minutes.

If by "Alpha and Omega", you mean "Darwinist/evolutionist vs. intelligent design/creationists", the case would not be thrown out of court because there the scientific evidence available that would be deemed "circumstancial evidence" and admissible in a court of law.

"Circumstancial evidence" is a fact or set of facts that leads to a reasonable inference of the existence of another fact. This type of evidence requires that a deduction be made. "Circumstancial evidence" is acceptable under the "scientific method". www.scientificpsychic.com...

In this case, Darwin, et al, vs. Intelligent Design, et al, there will be no direct evidence to prove or disprove either case, eg, no eyewitnesses, no documents, no smoking guns. The evidence would consist of all the scientific tests and experients, and the findings of biologists, anthropologists, paleontologist, ect. To be admissible, this scientific evidence must be verified. In addition, opinions of expert witnesses would be admitted into evidence (if the opinion is based upon verified scientific evidence), but the weight of each expert's testimony would be decided by the jury. The jury would consider the expert witnesses qualifications, the strength of the factors he considered in arriving at his opinion and any bias or prejudice the witness may have.

Now, we all know that neither side is going to be able to prove their case to an absolute moral certainty. Then, what is the appropriate burden of proof? "Proponderance of the evidence" is what science utilizes , ie, one position is more probable than the other position, although there exists some doubt.

Proponderence of the Evidence:

The greater weight of the evidence; superior evidentiary weight that, though not sufficient to free the mind wholly from all reasonable doubt, is still sufficient to incline a fair and impartial mind to one side of the issue instead of the other. This is the burden of proof in a civil trial, in which the jury is instructed to find for the party, that on the whole, has the stronger evidence, however slight the edge may be."

www.bolenreport.com...

Let's look at what some of the known experts have had to say on this issue:

Harvard biochemist and Nobel laureate, devout evolutionist George Wald said:

"I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution."

George Wald (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1967). George Wald, "Frontiers of Modern Biology on Theories of Origin of Life" (New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1972), p. 187.

Wait a minute. The evolutionists may not want this guy testifying. Let' see if we can find a better witness for them...

Richard Dawkins, the champion of Darwinism/neo-Darwinism and devout atheist might do better. Although, he could be viewed by the jury as bias if this prior statement is admitted into evidence:

Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.

en.wikipedia.org...

So, Dawkins would no longer be "intellectually fulfilled" if creationism/ID prevailed? That might affect his credibility with the jury, but let's see what else he had to say and if he can help the evolutionalists' case:

Concerning the Cambrian fauna, and that there are many that still survive, all looking much like they did over 500 million years ago, Richard Dawkins, has made the following comment:

"And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists"

Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1987).

Ouch! That's not good for the Darwinist. Who is this Dawkins guy working for anyway? Actually, Dawkins may be a double agent of sorts... In this video clip, Dawkins states that intelligent design is possible.
www.youtube.com...

Not good. Let's look for someone else.
Steven Stanley, an affirmed evolutionist, was objective enough to point out:

“The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that a gradualistic model can be valid.”

Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process. San Francisco: W. M. Freeman & Co., 1979.

The court now stands in recess.

reply to post by Barcs


OK - if you say so let's deal with the moral aspects of the thread.

u said:

...You believe in the all powerful, all knowing god of the bible, who created everything.

Yes you're correct on this point but in the following you're completely offmark.

If god is all knowing, he created the earth and people on it, knowing full well what would happen. He created humans knowing he'd have to murder them all in a flood, and knowing that they would disobey him and be punished for eternity. Instead of tweaking his design, he lets it go forward anyway. Not intelligent. Not loving. Not all powerful.

You see although God is All Knowing he is also a free moral agent just like us. In other words he has the freedom of choice. As the scripture tells us he has the freedom to choose whether to know something in advance or not.

This is evidenced from the simple test of obedience given to Adam and Eve - for which they miserably failed. If God knew before hand that they were going to sin - why give them the test? So obviously he choose not to see or foreknow what they were going to do. Much like us - not wanting to know what the weather will be like next week by not looking at the weather report today. He thus gave them the freedom to choose what they want to do. Appreciate what was to be given to them (everlasting life) or follow their own desire? We know the tragic choice they made.

As for the flood - you're mistaken again. God DID NOT murder those people but gave ALL of them a chance to survive the coming deluge.

But why the deluge?

Again the scripture informs us:

Gen 6:4 ASV - "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."

Gen 6:5 ASV - "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Imagine that, only eight souls were serving God out of the thousands of people, among rebellious angels with their wicked hybrid offspring. Would God allow these remaining eight righteous souls get wiped out by wickedness? Impossible. Yet inspite of the rampant badness - Jehovah God was still patient and gave all a chance to repent from their bad ways. The response - ridicule and laughter thrown at Noah, his family and against God. So the majority made their choice - just like today.

Besides if he won't intervene to save his servants what will persons like you say?

A god or creator could very easily end all religious wars in the world with minimal effort, yet he does nothing and expects people to figure it out on their own.

But there's also other good reasons why he hasn't acted yet in our time:

“Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

He want's all of us to willingly approached him and turn away from badness before it's too late.

In the meantime the offer is still open:

"Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." - Isa 55:6-7 DBY

But soon - like in Noah's day - time will run out!

As for -

The concept of original sin is a joke, and shows that god is not loving and loves holding grudges. One person disobeying him condemns an entire species to death and disease? God made the choice to punish humans like that. They didn't do it to themselves.

Sorry but you're wrong again.

Mankind was given a good start - a beautiful place to live in - the earth - to b populated by righteous people but chose to disobey and condemned the rest to die.

Yet inspite of this what does the scripture tells us? Jesus' own words:

“. . .For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. . .” (John 3:16-18)

Gave his own son so that we might have hope yet what do people like you say in return?

god is not loving and loves holding grudges

As for

God created the devil. God created hell.

Wrong again.

Satan was once a good angel but turned against God because he wanted to be god - he made himself into Satan (Resister). As for "hell" the original word is "Sheol" which means - the common grave.

If "God" created everything.. where is his signature.

We live in a possible infinite universe. This would make the chance of life possible if not guaranteed if the ingredients for life exist in the universe (they do). Even if its 0.(insert millions of zeros here)1% of it happening, it will somewhere eventually and it will again.

I just like to believe we live in a super computer. It's better than believing in a book written by people long after they actually existed on this planet. We don't know anything in 2012, so we rely on stories told by people who believed in dragons and magic.. who lived in a time when stories were the equivalent to television instead of using the technology today to figure out whats really going on.

reply to post by Barcs


continuing...

As for these statements of yours:

Um, we're talking about the god of the bible right? The same guy who made people sacrifice animals to him, and follow his every command, and told people how to live and to pray, keep holy the sabbath day and everything else. He told people to build places of worship in many cases, and condoned going to temple to worship him once a week.

It reveals to me that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about - that is no idea of why the nation of Israel. How they were a separate nation to be a holy nation. What the rituals were for and why the ceremonies. Why the ten commandments along with 600 more.

As for

I don't know god. Maybe you can introduce me to him the next time he's around. Oh wait, he's never around and doesn't interact with the population besides in ancient texts. In fact, nobody's EVER seen him and no evidence even suggests his existence. Worshiping god is a one way deal. You pray and ask and talk and worship, but in reality he doesn't talk back, he doesn't even answer you when you speak to him even though he's all powerful and only answers prayers when in his best interest. Normally when people talk about imaginary friends, it means they have some kind of mental illness, but for some reason this is encouraged when it comes to religion.

I don't know if you're being serious or being silly and ridiculous.

Normally when people talk about imaginary friends, it means they have some kind of mental illness, but for some reason this is encouraged when it comes to religion.

So are saying that all who believe in the unseen has mental illness?

So that's 2/3 of the wolds population that you've just diagnosed having a mental illness.

That's quite an amazing feat Dr. Barcs - should we take you seriously? Now that per your diagnosis we're all mentally ill?

Do you want to retract and save face?

David Attenborough sums it up best:



Spot on

reply to post by edmc^2


I would say they do have a mental illness...

And this will become very obvious soon. When circumcision is banned before 18 and the millions of religious people start killing themselves.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I would say they do have a mental illness...

And this will become very obvious soon. When circumcision is banned before 18 and the millions of religious people start killing themselves.

You too Wertdagf?

Interesting thing is it takes more faith to believe on what you don't know - such as the Origin Of Life in terms of evolution theory.

It takes a certain amount of mental manipulation in order to convince oneself to believe that accidental, chance events was the progenitor / creator of life.

Originally posted by edmc^2
You see although God is All Knowing he is also a free moral agent just like us. In other words he has the freedom of choice. As the scripture tells us he has the freedom to choose whether to know something in advance or not.

That is not possible. If somebody is Omniscient, it means that they know every that has ever happened or ever will happen AT ALL TIMES. They can't just turn the knowledge off. It's always there.

This is evidenced from the simple test of obedience given to Adam and Eve - for which they miserably failed. If God knew before hand that they were going to sin - why give them the test?

Exactly my point. He didn't know, therefor he can't possibly be all knowing.

So obviously he choose not to see or foreknow what they were going to do. Much like us - not wanting to know what the weather will be like next week by not looking at the weather report today. He thus gave them the freedom to choose what they want to do. Appreciate what was to be given to them (everlasting life) or follow their own desire? We know the tragic choice they made.

No, it's not just like us. If I don't turn on the weather channel or check online, I'll won't know what the weather might be like, plus weathermen don't know everything and are often wrong. God knows everything at all times (all powerful, all knowing). So you are basically claiming that even though god knows everything that will ever happen, he intentionally blocked his own knowledge during one of the most important things he's ever done? What kind of sense does that make? If that is true, then got is NOT intelligent.

As for the flood - you're mistaken again. God DID NOT murder those people but gave ALL of them a chance to survive the coming deluge.

Murder is murder and right now you are trying to justify it. No loving god would murder his own creation in a fit of rage, when he knew ahead of time that it would happen because of the very nature of man that HE CREATED. If I poisoned the water supply of a certain town, then send a random person in to warn everyone, is that NOT STILL MURDER? Hey, I gave them a chance to save themselves, it's not my fault they didn't listen to the random crazy man telling everyone to not drink. What do you think the other people thought of Noah? Again, its a perfect example of not being benevolent or omniscient.

Imagine that, only eight souls were serving God out of the thousands of people, among rebellious angels with their wicked hybrid offspring. Would God allow these remaining eight righteous souls get wiped out by wickedness?

Wiped out by the wickedness? You mean wiped out by god. Did god speak to any of these wicked people or did he just tell Noah and expect the word to get out? NOT intelligent. NOT all powerful. Again, if he could manifest himself to the so called wicked people, and prove his power, I don't think anybody would question it. It is a rather defeatist attitude that this so called god has. Instead of talking to people and working with them to show his powerful and show them where they went wrong, he just pulls the plug on every living thing he's ever created and kills them all except 1 family of humans. God is all powerful, yet he asks a mere man to gather dna or animals to save them from all dying in the flood. Couldn't god just snap his fingers and all the wicked people would be gone and the earth would still be fine? It's blatantly obvious that if god was even real, his power and knowledge was indeed limited, and he was far from perfect or omniscient. God was a tyrant in the old days. Why was his son so peaceful?

It reveals to me that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about - that is no idea of why the nation of Israel. How they were a separate nation to be a holy nation. What the rituals were for and why the ceremonies. Why the ten commandments along with 600 more.

The bible talks about worshiping god in MANY sections. It seems to me like I know more about the bible than you do.

So are saying that all who believe in the unseen has mental illness?

So that's 2/3 of the wolds population that you've just diagnosed having a mental illness

Nope, just the ones that spout it as absolute literal truth and use dishonesty about science to preach it to others, when it's all based on faith, instead of looking at it for the lessons that it teaches. Fundamentalists make up less than 30% of Christianity BTW. Yes, I'd classify anybody who rejects modern science because of an ancient story book in that is probably at least 12,000 years old (the older stories). If it's just faith, that's fine, I have no problem with it, but when threads like this are created trying to cherry pick what science knows and doesn't know to somehow indicate design. People are just cocky I guess, when they try to attack a field of scientific study, when they haven't studied it in depth or even read a thing about it.

reply to post by MrXYZ


That's all you've got Mr. XYZ? An old senile evolutionists sticking his middle finger?

No wonder you have the same pov - always blaming God for whatever ills mankind without even considering the situation.

For instance, was it the fault of the worm that it found its way unfortunately to the boy's eye? Of course not! But how did it get there in the first place? Did God put it there to punish the boy or was it an unforeseen circumstances that led to it. Maybe the boy swam in the river teeming with parasites then swallowed the water. Or maybe ate a peace of meat infested with parasites, or maybe the unsanitary living conditions led to the unfortunate situation. Whatever it is - it wasn't God who was responsible for the illness.

Sadly though because of economic situations that they have no control of, such tragedy will keep occurring until the day comes when God removes all sickness and diseases and all governmental authorities responsible for such plight.

Just like what happened in India a few years ago where thousands of lives were lost because of a flash flood. Many of these people were living on low level grounds prone to flooding. But because of the economic situation - many can't afford to move to higher grounds so they gambled and hope that a catastrophe will not happen. The government should have stepped in and helped these people but due mismanagement and corruptions nothing was done. Then disaster came and lives were lost.

Of course you will blame God for this tragedy also because he did not stepped in. Yet when he intervenes - what do people like you accused God of? "God is evil and holds a grudge" is the usual response.

But whatever your misguided understanding is one thing for sure will remain - the fulfillment of God's promises! The removal of all wickedness and all source of pain, death and sorrow.

Here are just a few of what God will do in the future!

Dan 2:44 DBY - "And in the days of these kings shall the God of the heavens set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the sovereignty thereof shall not be left to another people: it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, but itself shall stand for ever."

Rev 21:4 DBY - "And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away."

Isa 33:24 DBY - "And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven [their] iniquity."

Isa 2:4 DBY - "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall reprove many peoples; and they shall forge their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-knives: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Isa 35:1 DBY - "The wilderness and the dry land shall be gladdened; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."

Isa 35:6 DBY - "then shall the lame [man] leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and torrents in the desert."

Isa 35:7 DBY - "And the mirage shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of wild dogs, where they lay down, shall be grass with reeds and rushes."

Eze 34:26 DBY - "And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in its season: there shall be showers of blessing."

Eze 34:27 DBY - "And the tree of the field shall yield its fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase; and they shall be in safety in their land, and shall know that I [am] Jehovah, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them out of the hand of those that kept them in servitude."

Isa 11:6 DBY - "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted beast together, and a little child shall lead them."

Isa 11:7 DBY - "And the cow and the she-bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox."

Isa 11:8 DBY - "And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the adder, and the weaned child shall put forth its hand to the viper's den."

Job 33:25 DBY - "His flesh shall be fresher than in childhood; he shall return to the days of his youth."

Psa 37:10 DBY - "For yet a little while, and the wicked is not; and thou considerest his place, but he is not."

Psa 37:11 DBY - "But the meek shall possess the land, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of prosperity."


So will you allow God to fulfill his promises and get rid of all the things that trouble mankind once and for all or will you keep on blaming him for all the calamities that befall man?

reply to post by edmc^2


So in essence if it's good, god is responsible...and if it's bad, he isn't. Makes perfect sense! Thanks for proving David Attenborough's point

But whatever your misguided understanding is one thing for sure will remain - the fulfillment of God's promises! The removal of all wickedness and all source of pain, death and sorrow.

And after thousands of years people are still waiting for that supposedly all-powerful being to remove all the "wickedness and sources of pain". Given that he/she/it is apparently all powerful, it's safe to say he's a sadist. Because after all, if he's all-powerful, and benevolent, he would allow happiness to thrive...but clearly that isn't the case and he allows suffering to continue.

The lack in logic when it comes to your beliefs is mind-blowing

reply to post by edmc^2

Of course you will blame God for this tragedy also because he did not stepped in. Yet when he intervenes - what do people like you accused God of? "God is evil and holds a grudge" is the usual response.

People aren't blaming god. You can't blame something you don't believe exists. Nobody's saying god causes flash floods and other natural disasters. That is what YOU believe. According to the bible, god directly caused the great flood, several plagues and pestilences, and ordered the destruction of several cities with no mercy to the inhabitants. You can't honestly say he was completely benevolent. He ruled like a dictator, out of fear. It's pretty obvious to me that Yahwey and Jehova were more than likely either a group of ETs or a group of technologically advanced humans, just like the rest of the god myths. There were lots of floods at the end of the last ice age. That's how the earth works, it wasn't god making it rain enough to flood the entire planet because of one small group of people that lived in one small section of the world. That would be one hell of an over reaction on his part.

reply to post by edmc^2


but if i turn out to be wrong it doesnt leave me suicidal.

Not so with people who believe what you do. Who say over and over again they have heard the voice of god speak to them and tell them things. When this mental illness is seen for what it is.. will you accept help, or kill yourself?

reply to post by MrXYZ

So in essence if it's good, god is responsible...and if it's bad, he isn't. Makes perfect sense! Thanks for proving David Attenborough's point

Of course, unless you're of the same mind as Mr. David Attenborough - then God is also responsible for the bad because like you Mr. Attenborough is incapable of analyzing the real circumstances behind an event and I assume prone to misinterpreting events.

Always ready to pass judgement without even looking at what led to the circumstances.

But even Jesus Christ will NOT agree with that accusation because it's contrary to his Father's very Nature - a loving merciful God who cannot and will not tolerate wickedness to continue forever.

Notice:

“And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.” (Mark 10:17, 18)

If Jesus is the epitome of goodness why did he say that "Nobody is good, except one, God"? Why did Jesus gave the glory to his father and God if you say that God is bad?

Again Jesus:

Mat 5:44 KJV - "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Mat 5:45 KJV - "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

And after thousands of years people are still waiting for that supposedly all-powerful being to remove all the "wickedness and sources of pain". Given that he/she/it is apparently all powerful, it's safe to say he's a sadist. Because after all, if he's all-powerful, and benevolent, he would allow happiness to thrive...but clearly that isn't the case and he allows suffering to continue.

On the contrary:

“Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

Did you get that one? He said " he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

In fact as already been mentioned so many times he even - willingly - gave up his only begotten son to die for mankind so we ALL can have the chance to live forever.

Jhn 3:16 KJV - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Jhn 3:17 KJV - "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Rom 3:23 KJV - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Rom 3:24 KJV - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Why even those who are already dead have the grand prospect of being resurrected back to life!

Act 24:15 KJV - "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

A riddle for you:

“. . .A fountain does not cause the sweet and the bitter to bubble out of the same opening, does it?” (James 3:11)

“And this is the message which we have heard from him and are announcing to YOU, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him.” (1 John 1:5)

Can darkness be mixed light?

Deu 32:3 ASV - "For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: Ascribe ye greatness unto our God."

Deu 32:4 ASV - "The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he."

So no you and Mr. Attenborough are wrong in your assumptions.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by edmc^2

 

but if i turn out to be wrong it doesnt leave me suicidal.

Not so with people who believe what you do. Who say over and over again they have heard the voice of god speak to them and tell them things. When this mental illness is seen for what it is.. will you accept help, or kill yourself?

edit on 3-2-2012 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Wertdagf - I'm not one of those fundamentalist Christian who claims to talk to God and at the same time hear voices from God. Nope.

Sorry to disappoint you but I love my God, Jesus, my family, my brothers, friends, life and even persons like you and I like science!

Besides there's no need for it since all that God wanted to say are all in his written word the Bible.

But might be your neighbor - if they do try to get them help.

reply to post by edmc^2

Of course, unless you're of the same mind as Mr. David Attenborough - then God is also responsible for the bad because like you Mr. Attenborough is incapable of analyzing the real circumstances behind an event and I assume prone to misinterpreting events.

So basically, you ask me to have an "open mind" and consider that the bad stuff has perfectly natural reasons for happening without intelligent intervention...and then display an incredible amount of hypocrisy by also stating all the beautiful stuff is obviously god's doing. Even worse, you never present any objective evidence or facts to prove that point in the first place.

I'm baffled! Those statements are so ridiculous, I'm not sure if you're kidding or serious

reply to post by Barcs

That is not possible. If somebody is Omniscient, it means that they know every that has ever happened or ever will happen AT ALL TIMES. They can't just turn the knowledge off. It's always there.

Says who? You? If so:

Job 38:2 ASV - "Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?"
Job 38:3 ASV - "Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me."
Job 38:4 ASV - "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding."

Isa 29:15 YLT - "Wo [to] those going deep from Jehovah to hide counsel, And whose works have been in darkness. And they say, `Who is seeing us? And who is knowing us?'"

Isa 29:16 YLT - "Your perversion! as clay is the potter esteemed? That the work saith of its maker, `He hath not made me?' And the framed thing said of its framer, `He did not understand?'"

No, it's not just like us. If I don't turn on the weather channel or check online, I'll won't know what the weather might be like, plus weathermen don't know everything and are often wrong. God knows everything at all times (all powerful, all knowing). So you are basically claiming that even though god knows everything that will ever happen, he intentionally blocked his own knowledge during one of the most important things he's ever done?

Sure, it's like us - just like what you said.

If I don't turn on the weather channel or check online, I'll won't know what the weather might be like

Jehovah God simply chose not to know what Adam and Eve are going to do. It's a loving way - rather than force them to obey, he let them make the decision. He wants them to make up their mind. Just like you if you have kids, would you rather have them love and obey you willingly? Me - of course. And that's all the test was.

Murder is murder and right now you are trying to justify it. No loving god would murder his own creation in a fit of rage, when he knew ahead of time that it would happen because of the very nature of man that HE CREATED.

How could it be murder if Jehovah God warned the people of the coming flood? How could it be if God gave everyone a chance to get saved? Forty years it took Noah and his family to construct the Ark but what did the majority of people do? Ridicule and make fun of Noah, his family and God. In that forty years Noah and his family were not only carpenters/farmers but preachers.

And yet what did God see when he looked at the hearts of men?

Gen 6:5 YLT - "And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;"

Would a loving God allow these eight souls to be continually get tortured by wicked men and wicked angels day in day out? Impossible. How would you react if your neighbors keeps on making fun of your faith day in day out and is now threatening your very existence? Will you protect your family? I will, by calling the authorities.

But we're talking about the entire world behaving badly - will not a loving God do something? So the answer was the flood - remove all wickedness including the powerful materialized angels (who are now called demons) and their giant offspring the Nephilim.

Forty more years of ridicule, badness and warning should be more than enough to know that enough is enough - times up.

God is all powerful, yet he asks a mere man to gather dna or animals to save them from all dying in the flood.

Remember the command to Adam and Eve -

Gen 1:28 YLT - "And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.'"

It's the same command given to Noah and his family:

Gen 9:1 YLT - "And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;"

Gen 9:2 YLT - "and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea -- into your hand they have been given."

It's a continuation of the command, besides why should God start the creation again if a sample/representative of each of the animal "kind" can be saved alive and reproduced again? Makes sense?

The bible talks about worshiping god in MANY sections. It seems to me like I know more about the bible than you do.

OKay, then who did Jesus say is the god of this world?

And why did Jesus call his Father his God?

Fundamentalists make up less than 30% of Christianity

So it's the Fundamentalists Christians your talking about then that are insane?

I'm not a Fundamentalists but are lumping me with them?

Just curious.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Of course, unless you're of the same mind as Mr. David Attenborough - then God is also responsible for the bad because like you Mr. Attenborough is incapable of analyzing the real circumstances behind an event and I assume prone to misinterpreting events.

So basically, you ask me to have an "open mind" and consider that the bad stuff has perfectly natural reasons for happening without intelligent intervention...and then display an incredible amount of hypocrisy by also stating all the beautiful stuff is obviously god's doing. Even worse, you never present any objective evidence or facts to prove that point in the first place.

I'm baffled! Those statements are so ridiculous, I'm not sure if you're kidding or serious

Again please explain to me if God is capable of badness, why did Jesus said the following:


“And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.” (Mark 10:17, 18)

If Jesus is the epitome of goodness why did he say that "Nobody is good, except one, God"?

Why did Jesus gave the glory to his father and God if you say that God is bad?

Let's start here.

reply to post by edmc^2


Please tell me you don't consider the bible objective evidence

How do you know god exists?
Because the bible says so!
But how do you know what the bible says is true?
Because the bible is the word of god!
But how do you know god exists?
Because the bible says so!

Circular "logic" at its best