Military training and it's effect on humans, page 5

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reply posted on 15-11-2011 @ 11:43 PM by EyesWideShut

I'm not sure how to answer this but I'll give it a shot...I'm a prior service United States Marine , so I know a little about what goes on in bootcamp and what needs to be done to turn a 18 y/o civilian boy into a killer. I personally don't think it's natural to take someones life that's not a direct threat to you or your family.

What the military needs is people that will kill on command, in order to get there a recruit is stripped of his sense of self and built back up as a member of the team. It's something that is hard to explain to those who have not experienced it.

Bootcamp takes young men and turns them into basic riflemen and gives them the basic skills needed to survive on the battlefield, It flicks the ON switch of primal urges that have been suppressed by society , the only problem is that there is no OFF switch...

The Marine Corps is a warriors culture, same as soliders throughout history dating past the Spartans, No matter what type of society you live in , you are going to need people that will not hesitate to kill in order to save the civilians, you need life takers, you're going to need trigger pullers until humanity evolves past "ME" and "I" and see's that we are all one.

The largest discrepency between a late teen and early twentysomething is the level of responsibility given to that person, At 18 I was learning how to collect , record ,analyze and process Intel into a package that officers could use to make a well informed decision. My friends were freshman in college and lived a life of beer bongs & smoking a green leafy substance. (I'm sure there was some learning involved, most of them eneded up graduating

) So when I would come home on leave, I was in a world where I didn't really fit and had no use... I was around friends that had no worries and took nothing serious, meanwhile I came from a world where If I screw up, people die. I never viewed myself as better than them, just different....at times I envied their lack of care.

I think this is what the OP is experiencing, It's not that your friends don't like you because you're a civilian, It's the fact that it's probably hard to find common ground and relate to each others lifestyles. This isn't exclusive to the military, as you grow up and find a career, you'll find this happening again. I've got friends that are Doctors and Lawyers and I NEVER talk to these guys outside of facebook, I've got my group of friends that don't have kids and can't understand why I can't drop everything and meet them for a beer, I've got friends that are LEO's that are on their own program, Me being a Firefighter, I spend more time with the guys in the house than my own family sometimes. It's part of growing up man, life changes relationships change, we're not static...I know it sucks, but you're going to need to learn how adapt to change and move forward.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:02 AM by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

reply to post by beautyndissonance

No it's an easy question, the punk comment was not a slur my friend i thought i would throw a bit of Clint Eastwood in there! You know tough guy sort of thing!

I would never agree to those orders, because they are 100% against the Geneva Conventions Act.

Incredible, the written word of some nut will dictate your action's? Someone else is dictating your humanity? Anyway didn't George Bush n co twist the Geneva convention to suit their own need's. As far as i was aware ( i could be wrong) Preemptive strike's where illegal!

As Kissinger said, military men are just dumb stupid animals..........

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:11 AM by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

As Kissinger said, military men are just dumb stupid animals..........

Well isn't that quaint?...when you get a chance, go thank one of those dumb stupid animals for the freedom to say what you want, you could be living in one of those countries that you can be killed for doing so.

As Voltaire said, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to
say it"...

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:14 AM by FastMach1

TextAwesome post wWizard! I too couldn't finish reading the first page, the replies were a total shock. Do new military members think they are better than civilians? I can't speak for all but when I got done with basic and returned home for the first time, I had pride in what I accomplished and couldn't wait to get my new career started. That's right, it's PRIDE and HONOR that your sencing from military members. I was 19 when I returned home and started hanging out with a few buddies I ran around with from high school. Yeah, I changed. I saw the difference instantly. But I didn't think I was better than them. I felt I had started a new chapter in my life. "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." ~ 1 Corinthians 13:11 <-- That's how I felt. Sounds like many on here have military envy. We are different, darn right. We're different because of the situations we have been in and the training we have received. Just as much so as a doctor, engineer or mechanic is different from me or you.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:16 AM by Moshpet

I think war(/conflicts) had more of an impact on me than basic did.

Basic /advanced training only made sure I had the skills to survive it.

War, screws everyone over.

But that's just my take on it.

M.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:19 AM by Gseven

reply to post by Raivan31

I think you're stereotyping a whole group of people based on the hurt you feel by being shunned by those in your life. Not everyone shuns their loved ones when they join, and the ones that do are suffering from low self esteem, not brain-washing. Sadly, many people who join the military do have a low self-esteem, and join simply because they feel it will improve their status somehow. In the process, they endure the most rigorous training on the planet and accomplish this amazing thing that maybe they thought they couldn't accomplish. It's a surreal feeling, and unless you've experienced yourself, it's difficult to explain.

So, I don't think you have been repeatedly blown off by loved ones on purpose. After having graduated Marine Corps boot camp, most new Marines are walking on cloud nine, feeling invincible. They just achieved some of the most difficult training in the world, and earned the right to wear the uniform in the process. They've faced fears they never knew existed, pushed their bodies far beyond what they ever thought was possible, and they lived to tell the tale. BECAUSE it is such a life-altering experience (not to be confused with brainwashing), there aren't too many people on this planet that can empathize on that level. For that alone, you must try to understand that you cannot relate to your friends. They will naturally gravitate towards those who do understand, but that feeling does wear off in time.

If they dumped you, then it is one of two things: a.) A character flaw within them, or b.) the flip side of that - perhaps, (and this in only a PERHAPS), you no longer fit into their new found life of discipline. I found myself making new friends after boot camp and cutting ties with others. Some thought I had changed, and I did, but I changed for the better. Those people I cut ties with were people who did not always have my best interest at heart, and I didn't have the courage to cut ties prior to boot camp.

So, I'm not saying you're the bad guy here that people need to get away from. I'm just being honest and sharing two possible sides and giving a very real look at the different people that go in and the different outcomes after they come out. Boot camp will never cure someone's character flaws, unless they are aware of them and actively pursue to fix them. It will temporarily subdue them, and replace them with more important standards of living, but those flaws WILL resurface later, and with a vengeance sometimes.

So your friends may have gone in self-centered and selfish to begin with and came out that way. The only difference is, behaving that way to you won't get them bad paperwork, so they can get away with it. It will come around though. These people generally leave the military after many hardships, and these are the same ones who come out with some axe to grind against the military. Typical human behavior - blame someone else for your shortcomings, right?

On the other hand, if it's you, only you know.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:23 AM by beautyndissonance

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid
reply to post by beautyndissonance

No it's an easy question, the punk comment was not a slur my friend i thought i would throw a bit of Clint Eastwood in there! You know tough guy sort of thing!

I would never agree to those orders, because they are 100% against the Geneva Conventions Act.

Incredible, the written word of some nut will dictate your action's? Someone else is dictating your humanity? Anyway didn't George Bush n co twist the Geneva convention to suit their own need's. As far as i was aware ( i could be wrong) Preemptive strike's where illegal!

As Kissinger said, military men are just dumb stupid animals..........

Well as far as you were aware, you are dead wrong. The Iraqi Insurgents got away with ALOT of bs because of the Geneva Code. They could basically blow us up, or shoot at us, and as long as they drop their weapons and surrendered, we could do nothing in return.

Like I said before, just because you have played Call of Duty doesn't mean you understand war or anything about the military. Go back to your Xbox 360, because your statements have no validity or truth to them, whatsoever.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:27 AM by beezzer

Let's put this in perspective, shall we?

Military aside for a moment, in college, I knew several people that joined fraternities. After their "pledge" initiations, they didn't hang out with us (GDI's) anymore. They thought they were better than the rest of us. They stuck together.

Sound familiar?

(forgive if this point has been mentioned, haven't had time to read through the thread)

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:28 AM by Moshpet

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid
reply to post by beautyndissonance

Ok, so there you are in Iraq, your commanding officer give's you the order to enter a particular building because there is intel that there are suspected terrorists in the said building. Take no prisoners he says, kill everyone in the building! You know there are kid's inside (because you gave one some candy earlier) you suddenly have a moment of enlightenment, F'ck this war is all about oil etc, Well punk! do you go in or not?

There is this thing called an 'illegal order.'
Not to mention Bad Intel.

If you can prove either, you just saved your buddies some hell, if you stand up and do the right thing.

They are soldiers, not stupid mindless thugs with no hint of courage or spine.
But hey what do I know? I was 11B/19D '87-'97
(No you may not see my DD214, its not like you would know what the abbreviations in the awards were for anyways.)

M.

edit on 16-11-2011 by Moshpet because: Becuase they may my head hurt.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:34 AM by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

reply to post by beautyndissonance

I don't play computer games mate, that's for numpty's. I think you will find that the war in Iraq was illegal and what happened in Abu Ghraib what with the torture and stuff was also illegal. Your problem is my friend that you where a soldier, you went to Iraq believing all of the Bush hype, you did certain thing's, you woke up, and your memories are giving you nightmares. Well i just want to say my friend that i don't blame you, I'm not accusing you! What you have to do (for yourself and no one else) is just to admit to what happened, don't try to justify it. See it for what it was! Get on with your life!!!

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 12:45 AM by beautyndissonance

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid
reply to post by beautyndissonance

I don't play computer games mate, that's for numpty's. I think you will find that the war in Iraq was illegal and what happened in Abu Ghraib what with the torture and stuff was also illegal. Your problem is my friend that you where a soldier, you went to Iraq believing all of the Bush hype, you did certain thing's, you woke up, and your memories are giving you nightmares. Well i just want to say my friend that i don't blame you, I'm not accusing you! What you have to do (for yourself and no one else) is just to admit to what happened, don't try to justify it. See it for what it was! Get on with your life!!!

I wasn't a soldier, I was a Marine, there is a difference. I didn't go to Iraq believing in the Bush hype, I joined the military because I wanted a chance at a new life, and got one, I joined before the war in Iraq even started, so you are clearly wrong on that aspect. My memories do give me nightmares on occasion, but it isn't because I "woke up". I stand by everything I did in all of my tours, assignments, detachments, billets, and various other roles in the Marines. Don't call me your friend, because I am not your friend. Don't sit there and try to act like you sympathize with what I went through during my time in the Corps, and then put me on the stake to burn because I decided to do something that I felt and still feel is a noble and honorable route for any man or woman to partake at any point in their life. I don't need justification for what I did, seem to me that the only person that needs justification is you, since you are trying so hard to point out all the character flaws that I have, which unless you are really good at reading the personification and personality of a person through just a few internet post, should be a really hard goal to achieve. For your information, I did get on with my life. I left the Corps in 2008 with an honorable discharge, went back to college, earned a bachelors degree, got married, had a child, and am currently working for a high level organization and just a few months from finishing my MBA. So before you assume that I am some life long military, war junkie, keep in mind that when you assume something, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:04 AM by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:17 AM by beautyndissonance

reply to post by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

I'm done here. You are trolling to the max, and its honestly getting old. You cannot come up with a rational statement, all you are doing is belittling my character based on assumptions. Have a good day.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:17 AM by Elexio

I have read the first few posts and i really think you are talking about the extreme cases. Or perhaps my collegues and myself are the exception.

Yes, they/we change after bootcamp. No denying that and i think it's the same for every nation. But the degree of changing really depends alot on so many factors.

And personally the only thing in common is the bonding process of experiencing events and problems together as a group during bootcamp. And even then it depends on every individual.

I personally noticed the average age, relationship status, instructors, etc all play a role in how you come out of the bootcamp. I noticed those differences between the group i was in and another group from the same year.

I guess all im trying to say is that not everyone comes out as extreme as the OP mentioned, but i do think that it does happen for some people.

@OP: On a personal note; i hope your friends come around and start to realise to act more "human" instead of superior, because you are absolutely right when it comes down to the fact that we are all human and should never forget that! And when they come around, give them that "second chance" mate!

my 2cents

edit on 16-11-2011 by Elexio because: typo

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:22 AM by ErroneousDylan

Surely, you can't be angry at the actual soldiers themselves. It is the training that makes them that way.

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:32 AM by ZeroUnlmtd

lol i spent 6 years in the U.S. Army and have 2 combat tours under my belt and i don't believe i'm better than anybody, those are only individuals who didn't understand the concept of living with honor and integrity and took it in a different perspective. Some people join only for the sole purpose of murking someone or becoming a bad a** mofo , so its not that they changed , they were screwed up in the head to begin with and training only amplified the negativity they were holding in their hearts to begin with. I prefer to live with honor and hopefully die the same. K thanks peace

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:48 AM by steveknows

Combat changes people. Just being in the defence force doesn't. Except perhaps to grow up a bit. I lost interest in my scateboard after I started driving tanks. My friends thought I'd become boring when I was home. They just simply had no idea of the fun I was having and the new found responsibility I had meant that they were still like children to me. I wouldn't say I felt that I was better than them just that my life had become more than it had been.

It's called some of us grow up.

edit on 16-11-2011 by steveknows because: TYpo

reply posted on 16-11-2011 @ 01:54 AM by steveknows

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid

I wasn't a soldier, I was a Marine, there is a difference.

reply to post by beautyndissonance

Only in your head, you wanted to shoot gun's, end of.

I joined before the war in Iraq even started,

So you already knew the score before you went to Iraq? Sad.....

I stand by everything I did in all of my tours, assignments, detachments, billets, and various other roles in the Marines

Yeah! you've got to! How else can you sleep at night?

Don't call me your friend, because I am not your friend. Don't sit there and try to act like you sympathize with what I went through during my time in the Corps, and then put me on the stake to burn because I decided to do something that I felt and still feel is a noble and honorable route for any man or woman to partake at any point in their life.

That's fine by me my friend, and i do feel sorry for you! If didn't i wouldn't say it.
Brainwashed still, you need to get educated!

I don't need justification for what I did, seem to me that the only person that needs justification is you, since you are trying so hard to point out all the character flaws that I have, which unless you are really good at reading the personification and personality of a person through just a few internet post, should be a really hard goal to achieve.

Considering you put up a bit of history, i know a lot more about you than you do me. You are guessing about me, the fact is you know squat!

So before you assume that I am some life long military, war junkie, keep in mind that when you assume something, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

Where did i say you are life long military? No! you may be out of the military but the military sure isn't out of you. Keep taking the sleeping tablet's and going to anger management.