Military training and it's effect on humans

reply to post by macman


I thought you weren't going to argue with me because you think I am deaf to opposing viewpoints?

Oh but you are arguing, it's just that there is probably no real logical position against my claim that the military is a death-cult.

I will allow you all the time you need to formulate an effective argument sir, and I will be open to consider it's veracity.

Take your time and when you are ready to dispute me properly, I will gladly accept your refutations and devise my own counter-argument if it is justified or will concede to your position if it is valid.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Not arguing about the Military.
I have no issue is pointing out the varying flaws in you and your posts.

Originally posted by Raivan31

C'mon man, i tried to explain this. it's an experience thing.
Also i think it might be fairer to say that cults use military training techniques rather then the other way around.

Please man, don't get angry about this. I know it sucks, hell i'm the OP so i think i can justify that sentiment. It's always the anger that stops these things from being understood. It seems counter-productive but switch off the emotional aspect for a bit and look at this from a different perspective.

but if you wanna argue i can't stop you, but i would ask that you try to stop yourself, the anger doesn't resolve conflict, only a desire to understand the reasons will resolve it.

It is possible that cults originally obtained or refined these tactics by emulating the military first. This is reasonable but would require diligent research to determine. It is a good point however because in many cultures historically it is evident that the military and religious zeal were hand in hand, such as the infamous Crusades, etc.

I have not been angry so do not worry, I almost always enjoy exercising my debate tactics and strategy on ATS, and hold no ill-will towards anyone I argue with. Tomorrow I may be on the same side with whomever I debate today. The next thread is a whole new topic, and it's totally random where the cards may fall.

I believe I have done a very good job avoiding any emotional-based responses, and have relied heavily upon the logical aspects of the debate.

Also, just for fun, saying "Hell I am the OP and I think I can justify that sentiment", is an argument from authority by the way.

Look on the bright side about these things. Someone posting more than you may like in your thread is actually a bonus because it increases traffic and brings more attention to the topic. Even naysayers help threads, without them there would be no ATS at all, and we would be bored out of our minds

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Not arguing about the Military.
I have no issue is pointing out the varying flaws in you and your posts.

I will try to refrain from pointing out your misspelling although you did it to me earlier. Because in fact it is a poor debate tactic and easily trumped. (Although I suppose I just did it).

I would ask that you please do point out the varying flaws in my posts, as that would help me to learn and evolve and to increase my skills and refine my thought processes.

I implore you to please indeed go through and pick me apart. Destroy my posts if you can, I would enjoy that very much. I like being proven wrong, but I will put up a fight because I want it to be meaningful and legitimate.

Everyone is wrong everyday about something, including myself. I need posters such as yourself to lay into me and show me exactly where I am wrong and how, because otherwise I will learn nothing. So please do deconstruct my allegations and put them to rest once and for all.
If you can.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Raivan31

Also, just for fun, saying "Hell I am the OP and I think I can justify that sentiment", is an argument from authority by the way.

Look on the bright side about these things. Someone posting more than you may like in your thread is actually a bonus because it increases traffic and brings more attention to the topic. Even naysayers help threads, without them there would be no ATS at all, and we would be bored out of our minds

Ok fair point on one and two. it's not what i meant to say, or rather mean, but yes it's an accurate observation.

What i meant (though you probably already understand this) is that i understand both sentiments from both of you. and reinforce this claim by way of my OP.

I'm not anti-authoritorian (i am apparently a bad speller though) quite the opposite. I just need respect to be earned and find it hard to respect the authority of anyone i don't actually know, or to respect the authority of a person based only on their position.

sorry, messed up the quotations.

edit on 15-11-2011 by Raivan31 because: (no reason given)

Well there's a good example that just happened to me right now.
I just got the 'Dear John' letter from someone else i was romantically interested in.

It's hard to be supportive when you feel like carp yourself.
Hope she does well though.

yes ok so i get around a bit hahaha
Guess i'm more of a lover then a fighter lol

I should be sorting out my own life anyway. See! the influence is not always a bad thing (;

Originally posted by Raivan31
They develop and 'us' and 'them' mentality and it strips them of their humanity. They think they are so tough and capable but really they are just moulded into a part of a machine, completely replaceable and disposable.

Bold added by me. There seems to be a lot of they and them in your entire introduction. Then you blast them for adopting the same mindset? Just thought I would point this out.

They distance themselves from anything 'Civvy' including friends and family that has always been there for them.

Yes, they are compassionate and have a deep sense of empathy and loyalty. They know they may not survive to come home, and perhaps less contact with the people they "genuinely love", friends and family, may make that loss easier for them should they have to die for what their "friends" and "family" and "home" pay them to do. It is called sacrifice, and it is required for the job to minimalize outside distractions so that maybe we won't put ourselves in undo harms way by dwelling on how homesick we are or day dreaming about "friends" and "family" which cause us to not notice the IUD we drive into which causes the death of all 6 people in the vehicle we were driving.

They are institutionalised to believe that their new 'pack' cares more about them and understands them better then their old friends, the people that genuinely love them. .... [snip]...

Then they get deployed to a war zone and they witness hell.

The only hell I witnessed in warzones was the hell that my "friends" and "family" that "genuinely love me" sent me to.

They are humans like the rest of us...

No, they are not.

... so they sometimes break and when they do they are suddenly far less important and valuable to their new 'Family' they have no one left to turn to because they've severed ties with the people who really care and then they are left to wither and die...[snip]...

I only spent 4 years of my 11 years in the usaf as a firefighter in warzones. After I was broken and medically retired from the usaf (after being too close to stuff that went boom) they pay me nearly $3,000 every month for the rest of my life, I have full medical insurance for the rest of my life, the state in which I live pays for all my college expenses for the rest of my life, and there are many other assets and programs at my disposal, and resources available to me and other wounded warriors.



If you want to find out who you are, lose yourself in the service of others.

Most of the rest of your intro OP, I can understand, relate to, and agree with. But, no, I don't think civilians have any idea what war really is. No, I don't believe most civilians know what it is like to have dozens or more lives depending upon them and the decisons they make. No, I don't believe most civilians know about the level of awareness, consciousness (hyper sensitivity) of surroundings required and demanded of them in warzones.
This is not my opinion. This has been my experience.

Originally posted by ILikeStars

They are humans like the rest of us...

No, they are not.

What??

Last I checked they were Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

How can I take you seriously when you are not even making basic scientific sense?

Originally posted by ILikeStars
But, no, I don't think civilians have any idea what war really is.

More illogical irrational statements.

Civilians get caught in the crossfire or get their homes bombed to rubble (collateral damage), but oh, "they don't know what war really is"?

Are you serious? Civilians are the victims of war.

reply to post by ILikeStars


Try to understand that i don't mean to sound like i'm attacking anyone. though i suppose it does come off that way.

Can't shake the feeling that i know you.

Also can't argue with what you posted. I just needed an outlet for my selfish point of view (sarcasm not intented, i really do think it's selfish) I have no other outlet.

I've been shot at, stabbed and beaten in my time. I've been hunted and had to have hightened awareness in the past. it may not have been in a warzone but i would have ended up just as dead.

I understand that it's a sacrifice and i understand that ties may be severed i also understand why they would be severed. I have a great respect for those that serve, i like these people and truth be told i hate that there is a divide between us.

I'm seriously thinking of finding a work around to the legal restraints on me that prevent me from joining myself.
Better to serve with them then sit back at home whinging about it.

Didn't mean to cause offence and i thank you for your unrestrained rebuke to my statements, your right. It sucks but your right.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ILikeStars

They are humans like the rest of us...

No, they are not.

What??

Last I checked they were Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

How can I take you seriously when you are not even making basic scientific sense?

He means that they are not like the rest of us, not the humans part.
and he's right, can't deny it.
A serious decision is made and a massive sacrifice is also made, this is one thing that seperates us.

Having said that, we also make a sacrifice. We sacrifice our feelings for the people that we support in their decision. we also distance ourselves to minimise the loss.

War is not a game, it's a horrible fact. it can't be ignored and it's not fluffy.
things must be done in war and there is no room for excuses regarding this.

Our job as Civvies is to minimise the nessecity for our loved ones to go off and fight.
they do the fighting and we try to ensure that there is no fighting needed in the first place.

Really, I think it's all about experience.

My experiences in the Marines made me have quite a bit less in common with civilians at the time. To the point of making conversation boring, uncomfortable and foreign. Really was like talking different languages since military conversation uses acronyms, terms and thoughts that civilians are unfamiliar with.


When you are immersed in an environment your thoughts and actions adapt to it. There is nothing more immersive than the military during wartime. Soldiers in war time need the support of friends that are going through the same things as them. A soldier who doesn’t put his brothers in arms above everyone else stands a higher chance of becoming a casualty. Just the way it is.


College can be quite an immersive experience also.
I have run into my share of college students and graduates who think they are better and smarter than the uneducated masses when, in reality, they just went through a different type of indoctrination program than me. The way some collegians speak can be quite alienating and offensive to those who never attended college.

The military is all about actions...accomplishing the mission whatever it is.
College seemed to be all about a quest for knowledge, asking questions, seeking answers.

I personally get bored with those institutionalized by the college system. They seem to spend too much time and effort questioning things irrelevant to their lives and not enough time on actual actions to make their lives better.

Like the philosophical tree in the woods.
If I’m not there, WTF do I care if it makes a noise or not. Besides, of course it does, the world exists whether our spoiled asses are there to witness it or not. Fossils show the existence of all kinds of s**t before man was there. Don’t anyone take this as an invitation to debate the subject because I don’t care…really!

Anyways,
Back in the civilian world, I relate to people just fine. Friends come and go in my life based on if we can still relate to each other or how much history and value as friends we have with each other. Don’t be broken up by friends coming and going, that’s nature. People tend to gravitate to what they need at the time.


Just some thought to ponder for those of us who have the luxury to do so.

reply to post by Raivan31


this is not true in all cases, i have two friends, one was a marine and another who joined the army and toured the middle east.

the marine still hangs out with myself and our usual friends, still drinks and smokes marijuana and plays frisbee golf, the only different thing about him is he is muscled out now!

the other guy who joined the army and toured the middle east did witness hell and was shot at etc. after his tour he went to alaska and then california where he discovered psychedelic mushrooms and '___' as well as yoga, he now is pursueing a career as a yoga instructor and is the nicest person i know, of course he makes his own '___' at his house and uses it probably frequently

but my point is that not all are succeptable to the brainwash

unfortunately my father, who has retired from the navy for years now, still has the same hair cut he's had for close to over thirty years, hasn't had a beard of any kind for the same amount of time and is still maintaining the 'worker bee' personality, so i generally tell people that my father was indeed, not so much brainwashed, but fell into the groove and it became him.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ILikeStars

They are humans like the rest of us...

No, they are not.

What??

Last I checked they were Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

How can I take you seriously when you are not even making basic scientific sense?

I didn't say they were not humans. I only meant to imply they are not like all other humans. I must concede I could have been more specific.

reply to post by Raivan31


I'm not always right. Truth be told I can easily internalize the sentiments behind your opening post, and agree with you on some of it, and totally think you are justified in venting via some medium or outlet. I wasn't intent on being totally diametrically opposed to your feelings and thought pattern at the time of your opening post, please understand this. I was merely trying to interject a viewpoint and some talking points from the "other side".

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this subject matter, I really do. Burning some calories to give it some thought is proof enough that you can't truly be some selfish person.

No worries. Just friendly conversation to share some ideas and views. You did not offend me, just helped me think some.

Thanks,
ILikeStars

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ILikeStars
But, no, I don't think civilians have any idea what war really is.

More illogical irrational statements.

Civilians get caught in the crossfire or get their homes bombed to rubble (collateral damage), but oh, "they don't know what war really is"?

Are you serious? Civilians are the victims of war.

I don't think American civilians are capable of making informed decisions concerning war due to lack of being informed. I know America has dropped bombs on at least 8 countries in the last 90 days. I stand by my statement. I don't think any American civilians (without civilian government jobs) can tell me what 8 countries they have bombed in the past 90 day. It's simple. They are not provided with this information via msm.

Well for better or worse i just entered an application to join.
Won't find out for a while if it leads anywhere and if i find a good job in the meantime i might not join at all.

But it's a choice and i made it.

reply to post by ILikeStars


You have made further elaborations that I cannot argue with.

Good saves, and I agree with your assessments in general terms.

Most Americans certainly do not have a clue what war is, or what it's really like. Movies and TV rarely can get even close to depicting the reality of it all.

From what I understand, you can be in the war on the front line and not even really have any idea of what is going on (aside of your own personal position within it).

Originally posted by Raivan31
Well for better or worse i just entered an application to join.
Won't find out for a while if it leads anywhere and if i find a good job in the meantime i might not join at all.

But it's a choice and i made it.

It's your life, your call.

May I ask if you put in the application before or after creating this thread?
You don't have to answer such a personal question but I was just curious to know.

reply to post by ILikeStars


I think you are a very clever and intelligent person.

I look forward to seeing more interesting thoughts from you in the future.
You withstood my attacks beautifully and I can't help but respect your composure.

Keep those posts coming!