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And the truth shall set you free (Part II)

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posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 08:37 PM
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Sorry as well Esther, you did not come off as a b-tch, I meant to say that I think you will do a good job as far as being neutral. I have to say that I think you (Esther) have good taste, in not posting in the other threads, I posted in one of them but reframed from the rest do to the antics of some of the posters involved.

By all means do stay as the neutral.

BTW I thought this thread was going to give others a chance to debate and discuss freemasonry pros and cons, in an orginized manner, and then the 3rd party will deliberate on a verdict at the end of the 14 days? So this would mean that Masonic Light would not hand anyone their head on a platter, or at least not for 14 days
I don't think he will hand anyone their head, although he might hand them their ego



df1

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:15 PM
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amike555: Without enforced rules for the debate such as those in the debate forums, I most likely would not even follow the thread. It would be nothing more than a continuation of anti-Masons arguing "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge". I would like to see debate rules enforced because I believe that on a level playing field it would be obvious to everyone that the anti-Masons have no evidence to present and the Masons mountains of evidence.

IMHO this thread has little purpose other than feeding the ego of its creator. He has this thing about the ownership of threads and that he believes that he should be able to control a thread because he started it. It was very appropriate for the Mod to make it clear that ATS owns and controls the content on this thread. I do not always agree with the operators, but I agree 100% that they own and can control the content as they see fit.
.



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:16 PM
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Hi Guys,

I appreciate my nomination by Neon Helmet and several others, although, to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what the position requires. I suppose I should just begin with a brief summary of my own reasons for joining the Masons, and my experience in it, then go from there.

I served as Worshipful Master of my Lodge in 2002, and am currently serving as Secretary. For those unfamiliar with Masonry, the Secretary is a business officer (along with the Treasurer) of the Lodge. My duties consist of attending all the meetings of my Lodge, recording the minutes of the meetings which are verified at subsequent meetings, keeping Lodge accounts on the books (which includes receiving monies owed and paying Lodge bills, issuing dues notices and receipt cards, etc.), completing the annual return and reports to the Grand Lodge, and various other similar functions.

In the York Rite, I am a Royal Arch Mason (currently serving as Scribe of my Chapter), a Royal and Select Master (serving as Deputy Master of my Council), and a Knight Templar (serving as Generalissimo in my Commandery).

I am a 32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite Mason, where I serve as Orator in my Chapter of Rose Croix; I am also an officer on the degree teams for the 18° (serving as Orator), 30° (serving as both Expert and First Lt. Commander) and 32° (serving as Assistant Expert).

I am also a member of the Allied Masonic Degrees of the United States (which controls “side degrees” such as Royal Ark Mariner, Secret Monitor, etc.); a member of the Philalethes Society, the Grand College of Rites of the United States, and the Scottish Rite Research Society. I have previously been honored with the Order of the Masonic Brotherhood of the Blue Forget-Me-Not for Masonic Education.

I am a Shriner, and a member of the Shrine Past Masters Unit.

That being said, let me address what Masonry means to me.

I first discovered Masonry as a history student in college, while researching the Enlightenment. I found the subject fascinating, and was curious as to why most of the important thinkers of that era became patrons of Masonry. I also admired the way that the fraternity had always stood up for individual rights, freedom of conscience, and free thought, in the face of religious and political tyrants.

Secondly, I began to take an interest in Masonry’s esoteric side. In my late teens and early 20’s, I had seriously studied and practiced Zen Buddhism. While researching oriental mysticism, I came across texts concerning the Kabalah, a body of divinity similar in many aspects to Buddhism, but much more optimistic and life-affirming. I began to take an interest in Kabalah, which led me to the writings of General Albert Pike, a noted Kabalist and learned Mason.

After reading Pike’s philosophical treatise “Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry”, coupled with the knowledge I previously held on Masonic history, I wasted no time in requesting to be admitted, and have been here ever since.

At this point, I should note that I was already well aware of conspiracy theories, so called “anti-Masonry”, and what-not before I became a Mason. I had read most of the popular anti-Masonic books like “Darkness Visible”, “Occult Theocracy”, etc. I found them entertaining before I became a Mason, and I still do.

I bring this point up because it is common for a non-Mason who opposes the fraternity to claim that most Masons don’t really know “what’s going on”. The problem with this argument is obvious: Masons have read the same anti-Masonic material as those who oppose Masonry. But these non-Masons who slander the fraternity are the ones who are really in the dark. We as Masons know very well what the accusers claim “is going on”. But our accusers for the most part have never even seen the inside of a Lodge building. They almost always show basic misunderstandings of our degree system, our form of government for the fraternity, etc.
However, not all anti-Masons are “conspiracy theorists”, and some are honest men and women who have done no wrong, but only have reached the wrong conclusions. These are certainly in the minority in the group of “anti-Masonry”, but since they are the serious critics, I think they deserve to be seriously addressed.

This group doesn’t claim that we are some sort of devil cult, or that we are in league with Martians, or that we are hellbent on world domination, or whatever. They freely admit that the Albert Pike / Lucifer stuff is a hoax, and they do not pretend that Masonry is ran by a secret cabal. However, they do have criticisms of Masonry.

Their major criticism is that Masonry is, at least in their viewpoint, a Unitarian society. In other words, it admits men of all religious faiths, and these critics believe that it wrong for a Christian to pray with a Jew, or a Hindu, or a Muslim. The only answer I have is that this group of critics are entitled to their beliefs that their religion is the only “true” one, and everyone else is on the lightning track to hell. But just as they have the right to their beliefs, so do I, and I disagree with them.

I welcome any comments or questions, and would like to add that I would never seek Esther's head on a platter...love ya, babe!


Fiat Lvx.




[edit on 3-9-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:19 PM
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Good DF1 !

I see that you know more about me than I do my self, thank you for contributing to this thread with you great insight and understanding.

As I see no further use of this thread I will ask the moderators if they will delete it, now I know I don’t decide if a thread should be deleted but this thread has no interest and no use anymore so its just a waste of space.

Bilbo

Ps:Sorry to have wasted you time ML, but this thread has been voted out by the majority I wasted my energy and have failed greatly in trying to parley between the two sides.
But I am honored ML that you almost accepted, and I thank you for that.







[edit on 3-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]


df1

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
...and would like to add that would never seek Esther's head on a platter...love ya, babe!

My remark was intended as humor, but it seems everyone has taken it seriously... Esther's avatar has no head, so it would be quite difficult to serve her head on any type of dinner service...


Where is Mirthfull Me when you need him?
.



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:29 PM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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The purpose of this thread is:

1st end this negativity among the anti masons and the masons on this board.
2nd end the discussion once and for all.
3rd so that we can join in a common front against ignorance
4th so that we can join in a common front against the trolls who call them selves anti masons and give us true anti masons a bad reputation.


Hmmm, I don't know.

First, I want to be the anti-mason

#1 will never happen
#2 no way
#3 sounds good
#4 hey, just so you realize some of the “trolls” are also pro-mason!


The goal of this thread:

1st Too prove with fair argumentation if there is anything solid to the anti Masonic claims.
2nd Too give the masons a fair chance to defend them selves without all the noise that these threads normally make.


Seems fair.

On “””esther””” not a problem. I've seen some of her logic and I doubt anyone could cry “foul.”

I look forward to this-

Oh, someone besides Masonic light should defend the masons- they need a good showing.


df1
What I am trying to convey is that Masonic Light would hand you your head on a platter in a moderated debate


He surely hasn't been “illuminating” in the other mason-threads!


esther
And am I the gadfly,


No esther trust me, YOU are not being called “the gadfly.”



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:44 PM
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#4 hey, just so you realize some of the “trolls” are also pro-mason!


Well can't argue with that, but any ways this thread has been ruined and I dare to say ON PURPOSE by some who shall remain nameless. I have been ridiculed by some of the masons for trying to achieve this common goal which leads me to this conclusion they don’t want it to happen.

Bilbo



[edit on 3-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet


#4 hey, just so you realize some of the “trolls” are also pro-mason!


Well can't argue with that, but any ways this thread has been ruined and I dare to say ON PURPOSE by some who shall remain nameless. I have been ridiculed by some of the masons for trying to achieve this common goal which leads me to this conclusion they don’t want it to happen.



Ahhh, too bad.

Try for the regular debate forum- but if you debate I get to at least e-mail you some stuff!


Originally posted by df1

IMHO this thread has little purpose other than feeding the ego of its creator. He has this thing about the ownership of threads and that he believes that he should be able to control a thread because he started it. It was very appropriate for the Mod to make it clear that ATS owns and controls the content on this thread. I do not always agree with the operators, but I agree 100% that they own and can control the content as they see fit.
.


You're still 'hacked' about your Filipino thread?

It was all true-[url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=76973] they were in power, they did lie to Aguinaldo, thousands of Filipinos did die, the U.S. was Imperialistic!

So what?


Masonic Light
. . . . read Albert Pike . . .


THEN decided to become a mason! Now this is telling!



df1

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by esther I am anti-organization...

Exactly my point. IMHO this is the only arguement that can be made against Masonry that has any legitimacy at all and I have seen you make varied portions of this point effectively on other threads.
.



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 09:54 PM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:05 PM
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Okay I see the discussion will just go on but with out the guidelines, I see no point in arbiters as the discussion has all ready begun, never the less I have seen where this goes and I am all ready bored.

This will just be a full frontal attack by both sides, and end up in one big orgy of noise.

I want to thank Masonic Light and Esther for agreeing to help me, even though it is not needed any more, one of the reasons I chose you was because I was fairly sure that you would accept this and take it serious which you have so again thank you it means a lot to me.

Also Esther I think that DF1 point is that you are “anti organization” there fore you are disqualified as a candidate, also you must share your views at the end of the discussion even though it means that they are fore or against.

Bilbo

-Thank you to all of you that took this attempt serious-

-I withdraw as a candidate-

-Also good post Masonic light your understanding keeps to amaze me-

[edit on 3-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:06 PM
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This debate thread is already two pages long and you people haven't even agreed on the rules yet.

"Good LTD nice ONELINER there, good to see that the masons on this board take this so seriously!"

I'm not a Mason. I've only been telling you that about 20 times.

You're right, I do not take this seriously, Neon.

Now you know why.

In any case, I wish you all a good debate. If you manage to get it started.

And by the way, I make it a point to break that one-liner rule as much as I can.

[edit on 3-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:10 PM
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And by the way, I make it a point to break that one-liner rule as much as I can.


Yes and that tells us more about you than it does about us.



I'm not a Mason. I've only been telling you that about 20 times


YOU ARE A MASONIC CANDIDATE YOU HAVE APPLIED FOR MEMBERSHIP AT A LODGE!

Bilbo



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet


#4 hey, just so you realize some of the “trolls” are also pro-mason!


Well can't argue with that, but any ways this thread has been ruined and I dare to say ON PURPOSE by some who shall remain nameless. I have been ridiculed by some of the masons for trying to achieve this common goal which leads me to this conclusion they don’t want it to happen.



Ahhh, too bad.

Try for the regular debate forum- but if you debate I get to at least e-mail you some stuff!


Originally posted by df1

IMHO this thread has little purpose other than feeding the ego of its creator. He has this thing about the ownership of threads and that he believes that he should be able to control a thread because he started it. It was very appropriate for the Mod to make it clear that ATS owns and controls the content on this thread. I do not always agree with the operators, but I agree 100% that they own and can control the content as they see fit.
.


You're still 'hacked' about your Filipino thread?

It was all true- they were in power, they did lie to Aguinaldo, thousands of Filipinos did die, the U.S. was Imperialistic!

So what?

Don't be bullied esther. (pssst- don't use Borg around masons- makes them nervous)

df1 is new anyway, what- 6 months?

He's still a (I think this is the term) 'pollywog'

*edit for url

[edit on 3/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]


df1

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:18 PM
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Don't you consider it reasonable to determine the rules of any debate. What you have started is a thread where the rules are debated. It seems logical that is the first step to any debates on Freemasonry. You are disappointed because the thread is not going in the direction you expected. Threads often time take on a life other than the one expected and desired by the creator. Forget the control thing NH, your thread is very successful, so stop bemoaning its direction.

IMHO I still believe rules and control are needed which can only be provided by the operators. Isn't this reasonable?



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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This is what I'm talking about, Neon.

I've applied for membership. I will become a member upon initiation. I have not been initiated yet. My initiation, IF I am chosen, is well over a month away.

Therefore, the amazing, incredible, collossal conclusion is . . . . . I'm not a Mason.

OK? Has the last horse crossed the line yet, lol ?

I look forward to reading your posts in this debate. Make it a good one, Neon.

Later.



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 10:46 PM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 11:37 PM
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Attention NH:

Don't you consider it reasonable to determine the rules of any debate. What you have started is a thread where the rules are debated. It seems logical that is the first step to any debates on Freemasonry. You are disappointed because the thread is not going in the direction you expected. Threads often time take on a life other than the one expected and desired by the creator. Forget the control thing NH, your thread is very successful, so stop bemoaning its direction.

IMHO I still believe rules and control are needed which can only be provided by the operators. Isn't this reasonable?


First of all you are not my superior ergo you cant demand attention from me.(sarcasm in this line, also sorry for the late editing but my net is playing ticks on me)

Well this thread have been hijacked and twisted by you and some of your friends.

Am I disappointed; you seem to think you know so much about me.




so stop bemoaning its direction


Well I don’t have I high degree in English so I probably don’t understand that part, in my eyes it looks as you just wrote:

So stop (to be sorry) its direction?

Is it “stop feeling bad about the direction of this thread”?

Well I really don’t think that something as small as masonry needs the mods Attention. And I don’t think this subject is worthy of going into the debate forum.

And Esther I think the most important part of the neutral party should be that they hold as little knowledge of masonry, so it is good that you haven’t read Albert Pikes morals and dogmas, though it is a good book and you should read it if you get the chance.

Bilbo

Ps: it seems that the discussion will happen anyway I will catch some Zzz and then watch what happens, as no ANTI mason has stepped up to the line I assume I will take this job and there for won’t be able to take part in the discussion.

[edit on 4-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]


df1

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
You're still 'hacked' about your Filipino thread?

You have a right to your opinions, I just don't happen to agree with 99.9% of your opinions and no doubt you do not agree with mine. The Filipino thread was just my posting of an interesting article expressing the personal feelings of one Freemason Filipino family. I hold no anger toward you over your remarks. Sorry to crush another another ego, but I just don't think about you.

I have the greatest respect for Esthers posts and enjoy reading dialog from Esther and Masonic Light more than most any other ATS members, because they always have something intelligent to say that merits reading.
.



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