Allow me to tell you why I have no religion

reply to post by Skorpiogurl

. . . but for me personally, I've always believed
in and felt the presence of God in my life.

You had a bit of a boost, to start with, probably enough to think of a benevolent presence out there, and not to succumb to a feeling of hopelessness, as if there were demons who ruled the world and we were completely helpless to avoid their just beating us down.
I think this is something important to understand from Christianity where Jesus says he has judged Satan and drives him out, and that he has overcome the world. We need to have this assurance that this is the case, so as not to allow ourselves to be overwhelmed and just give up.

reply to post by mr10k

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not cut my umbilical cord from my mother.

God created life…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not help me tie my shoes.

God created shoes, and gave you a brain so that you could to tie your own shoes laces…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not pick me up after school everyday when I was a kid.

God gave you a Mother and Father and friends, to help you.

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not get me my first job.

God has given you free will and an intelligent mind, to decide to be, whatever you want to be…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not get me my first car.

God created the elements, which make up everything, including cars…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not make me fall in love with a girl who accepts the way I feel.

God created woman, and love…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not pay for my college tuition.

God’s will, gave you the desire and the passion to study a subject that interests you…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not get me a job at a major corporation.

God made you, so that you could be free to decide, whatever you wished to do with your own life…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not get me married.

God invented marriage, after creating woman…lol

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not kill my mother when she grows old.

God created both life and death…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not give me a son nor daughter to raise.

God has given you the ability to have your own family, if that is what you wish…

Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not kill me nor my wife when I grow too old.

God created life and death…

Originally posted by mr10k
Let me tell you what God(s) is/are apparently responsible for:

God(s) apparently killed my father when he was shot and robbed on the street.
God(s) apparently killed about half of my family in Jamaica due to violence and corruption.

I’m very sorry for your loss, but you are pointing the blame in the wrong direction. I know from my own experience than when I get angry or mad, I have sometimes pointed the blame at the wrong person. This is only natural when bad things happen, because in our anger, we don’t always think clearly…

Remember the commandment “thou shall not kill”; it is one of the commandments that God gave to men. God is not the one to blame, because he has given men/woman free will to decide. If the person(s) responsible, truly new God, they would not be killing anyone.

Originally posted by mr10k
I believe in an omnipresent force that created everything.
I do not believe that that same force is conscious in any way.

You may need to take a long hard look at what you are saying above. And try to think it through logically…

On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.

If the “something” were not conscious, then that would suggest that everything just happened by chance. So the use of the phrase “it was created”, wouldn’t even come into play.

Originally posted by mr10k
My life was given to me by my mother and father. It is my life now. I make it. I am responsible for everything that happens in it. So are you. You are responsible for everything in your life. It is both yours and my fault that everything is happening the way it is.

Everything you say above is great, you have faith in yourself, nothing wrong with that. But everything you say above, can also apply to a believer in God. For example, I know that I am responsible for what I do in my own life, but my faith in God does not diminish or detract from that in any way.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.

No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe. Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't. It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.

If the “something” were not conscious, then that would suggest that everything just happened by chance. So the use of the phrase “it was created”, wouldn’t even come into play.

What this could-be-but-was-not had was a fate which was a part of it, that caused it, once it came into existence, to be a certain way, so there was no need for consciousness, only this fate.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.

Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”, especially in regards to the mechanics involved in the early beginnings of our universe, which no one can really comprehend.

As for describing the nothingness and emptiness etc… as being the state of things when there was no universe…I don’t believe that, because I believe God always existed and created everything…

God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…

Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.

I don’t believe there was a complete lack of anything, that’s my entire point that I’m trying to make to the OP…because I believe in a God, who has an eternal existence.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.

I think you may need to re-read my reply to the OP again…I never said it was “consciousness” that did it. I was simply pointing out that a creator, would in all likelihood, have to be a conscious being, in order to create something.


- JC

Careful OP, or people will start to believe that you are an individual thinker. There is, of course, no greater sin in society than to be an individual thinker. Look out for the proverbial pitch-forks and torches of the coming sheep. Oh, nevermind; after seeing some of the responses to your thread, I see they've already found you.

reply to post by Skorpiogurl


In answer to your question, Wicca. Always thought of the Divine as being of a Feminine Nature and countenance anyway. I was taught, by the church leaders, that practically everything was a sin. Masturbation and sex outside of marriage was out, wearing clothes of a blended fabric was out, tattoos were out, Rock and Roll was out. (Devil's Music) You can go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio and they have some 7 or 8 televisions sitting there, like a history of TV, and you can hear the preachers of the day railing against the evils of Rock Music. I was confused a great deal over this, as I really liked Rock and Roll. Then I heard this song:


It is, after all, only Rock and Roll.

reply to post by Joecroft

Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”,

That's probably what I meant.

God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…

I'm not saying God created the universe. Gods had a hand in development of the universe once it came into existence, I believe.

Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…

I do but I don't want to assign roles to God which don't apply. I think of God as a divine judge. He reads the laws of the universe, meaning the way things are, as determined by the nature of the existence of the universe. If we say God created the universe, then we make god to be evil because it is flawed, or at least not what we would think of as a universe a loving God would make. My solution to the Problem of Evil is to say the coming into existence of the universe was something that happened and was not under the control of God that it did in the way that it occurred.
This is a new sort of idea for me and one I came up with by looking at Aristotle, for one, and a couple other Greek philosophers.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.

Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”, especially in regards to the mechanics involved in the early beginnings of our universe, which no one can really comprehend.

As for describing the nothingness and emptiness etc… as being the state of things when there was no universe…I don’t believe that, because I believe God always existed and created everything…

God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…

Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.

I don’t believe there was a complete lack of anything, that’s my entire point that I’m trying to make to the OP…because I believe in a God, who has an eternal existence.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.

I think you may need to re-read my reply to the OP again…I never said it was “consciousness” that did it. I was simply pointing out that a creator, would in all likelihood, have to be a conscious being, in order to create something.


- JC

Not only did you not understand anything I wrote, but you also just rebuked all my statements with more things about God, something I don't believe in as you do.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.

Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”, especially in regards to the mechanics involved in the early beginnings of our universe, which no one can really comprehend.

As for describing the nothingness and emptiness etc… as being the state of things when there was no universe…I don’t believe that, because I believe God always existed and created everything…

God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…

Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.

I don’t believe there was a complete lack of anything, that’s my entire point that I’m trying to make to the OP…because I believe in a God, who has an eternal existence.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.

I think you may need to re-read my reply to the OP again…I never said it was “consciousness” that did it. I was simply pointing out that a creator, would in all likelihood, have to be a conscious being, in order to create something.


- JC

See, I cannot debate against you nor you to me. You believe God always existed and everything is ultimately caused by God. I don't believe in a conscious God. I don't believe in a being that causes anything. To argue against your logic would be childish and foolish because I cannot debate against faith. You have your beliefs. This is why I do not like others pushing their Christian logic onto me because "If I am not in the house how can I argue about the door?" How do you suppose I would argue against something I don't even believe? It's like asking me to tell you why I don't believe Unicorns rule the world. I don't believe it exists.

I believe that "God" isn't some conscious being. Instead I believe it was a catalyst. An element, a sound, etc whatever it was that caused all of this to come into being. Fire does not have to be conscious to create flames.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I do but I don't want to assign roles to God which don't apply. I think of God as a divine judge. He reads the laws of the universe, meaning the way things are, as determined by the nature of the existence of the universe.

You say you “think of God as the divine judge”, but in order for God to Judge; both Good and Evil must exist. Both exist, because God has given people free will, so that they can make a choice…etc…

Originally posted by jmdewey60
If we say God created the universe, then we make god to be evil because it is flawed, or at least not what we would think of as a universe a loving God would make.

I see. I don’t really see the universe as being evil in itself, maybe you could give me an example, to explain how you see it that way.

As for evil existing on Earth, I think it is necessary that both good and evil exist, for free will purposes. So I don’t really see the evil aspect, as you put it, as a problem; of course people are supposed to learn to turn away from evil, but without the possibility of evil existing, this process could not happen. But more importantly, it is people not following Gods plans/Commandments, which leads them to doing evil in the first place…

So summing up, I don’t really see the fact that evil exists, as being Gods fault, or that God could not have created the universe, because evil exists etc, because it is a natural by-product of having freewill. All evil essentially comes from us, not from God IMO.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
My solution to the Problem of Evil is to say the coming into existence of the universe was something that happened and was not under the control of God that it did in the way that it occurred.

See above…


- JC

reply to post by mr10k

Originally posted by mr10k
See, I cannot debate against you nor you to me. You believe God always existed and everything is ultimately caused by God. I don't believe in a conscious God. I don't believe in a being that causes anything.

Believe it or not, I don’t actually have a problem with the position you currently hold. I say this because I can see you are just being honest about what you believe or do not believe, to be true.

Originally posted by mr10k
To argue against your logic would be childish and foolish because I cannot debate against faith.

I will get to the faith aspect of this, further down in this post…

Originally posted by mr10k
You have your beliefs. This is why I do not like others pushing their Christian logic onto me because "If I am not in the house how can I argue about the door?" How do you suppose I would argue against something I don't even believe? It's like asking me to tell you why I don't believe Unicorns rule the world. I don't believe it exists.

Just for the record, I don’t exactly classify myself as a Christian (my beliefs are complicated ), because there are so many elements of Christianity; too much to go into here; that I have let go of. So know one is pushing any Christian beliefs onto you here, and at this stage, all we are discussing is whether there is creator or not…
However, I will add, that I believe in Jesus, his message, and the one who sent him i.e. God

Originally posted by mr10k
I believe that "God" isn't some conscious being. Instead I believe it was a catalyst. An element, a sound, etc whatever it was that caused all of this to come into being. Fire does not have to be conscious to create flames.

Getting onto the faith aspect…


The way I see it, it all boils down to the question…what do you believe existed in the beginning? Or similarly… What do you believe always existed?


Most people will agree that something must have always existed. You either believe that all the elements in the universe came about randomly (or just always existed) and somehow formed by themselves without any help and in turn somehow, happened/made everything else that we know and see around us, in the known universe. Or you believe that God always existed and created everything.


IMO, it requires more faith to believe in the former, than it does in the latter.


So when people say to me I have faith etc that there is a God/Creator. The only thing I can do, is to point out just how much faith there exercising, that there is not a God/Creator…



- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

You say you “think of God as the divine judge”, but in order for God to Judge; both Good and Evil must exist. Both exist, because God has given people free will, so that they can make a choice…etc…

The good and evil is in what the universe is. In one place you have new stars forming, in another place you have old stars dying. The world is the same way on a smaller scale. God had to do nothing for good and evil to exist. The divine judges determines what is good and what is evil at a particular moment for a particular person. Even the gods do not have free will. This is a non-free will universe. Even the the universe itself has no free will because it is still under the influence of the cosmic serpent that formed as part of the universe's creation. Everyone is forced to make choices because that necessity is built into the nature of the universe.

I see. I don’t really see the universe as being evil in itself, maybe you could give me an example, to explain how you see it that way.

Good people dying young and evil people thriving. The whole ecosystem living by killing other beings. Disease famine pestilence murder war robbery, you never noticed any of these things?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The good and evil is in what the universe is. In one place you have new stars forming, in another place you have old stars dying. The world is the same way on a smaller scale. God had to do nothing for good and evil to exist. The divine judges determines what is good and what is evil at a particular moment for a particular person. Even the gods do not have free will. This is a non-free will universe. Even the the universe itself has no free will because it is still under the influence of the cosmic serpent that formed as part of the universe's creation. Everyone is forced to make choices because that necessity is built into the nature of the universe.

Cosmic Serpent ?

Yes you are right about choice being built into the universe, but your argument was, that because evil exists, that God could not have created this universe.

But IMO, I think your perspective is wrong, because freewill and choice, allows for evil to exist, through peoples misguided choices. But that evil comes predominately from the choices that we make, and not Gods. Therefore, just because there is evil in the world/Universe, does not mean that a loving God did not create the Universe.

In fact, God has been trying to help mankind from the very beginning, but without taking away his freewill; for example, with the bringing of the 10 commandments, and then Jesus coming to fulfill those laws, so that people could understand and distinguish between Gods laws, and mans laws.

Originally posted by Joecroft
I see. I don’t really see the universe as being evil in itself, maybe you could give me an example, to explain how you see it that way.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Good people dying young and evil people thriving. The whole ecosystem living by killing other beings. Disease famine pestilence murder war robbery, you never noticed any of these things?

When I asked for an example above I was talking about the universe specifically and not the Earth, which I already touched upon in my previous post…but anyway, I will try to address what you have written…

Yes, I have noticed these things. “Disease famine pestilence murder war robbery” all come about because of the choices that we as humans make, it is all our own fault. The world could be a much better place and the technology to improve our world, already exists, right here and now.

As for people dying young etc…if you truly believe in Jesus words, when he talks about man having a spirit and a body in which his spirit/soul dwells, then in the grand scheme of things, death is not the end. And there is a much bigger picture to it all, which needs to be carefully considered.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Cosmic Serpent ?

Right.
It is like the residual energy from the creation that keeps the universe in a sort of unstable flux,
so that could be the source of evil, not God making the universe evil for fun.
God does not have the power to destroy the serpent.
Making a myth that God can, is itself evil.
The real God does not fight fate but is wise and knows how to work within its limitations.

. . . but your argument was, that because evil exists, that God could not have created this universe.

You can go to the Wikipedia article on "The Problem of Evil", if you do not already know what I am talking about. It is a very ancient question that goes back to the Greek philosophers. It is not something I created to think about. If you want a nice quick course, go onto the jrandi religion and philosophy forum and make a post saying you think the universe is just fine. The members will be very accommodating to straighten you out on that. This is how I learned about "The Problem". What I was saying is that I had a defense for God that I learned from my church which was that: "God could not kill Satan outright because as far as the inhabitants of the universe were concerned, the person we think of as Satan is God. So the invisible God, who had this visible God as a front man, has to wait until it becomes very obvious to everyone that he fully deserves to be killed."
I think now that it is not a god turned bad but the universe itself, or like I said, the residual after-affects of the creation of the universe which we just have to wait out.

In fact, God has been trying to help mankind from the very beginning . . .

Right, the gods placed us on this planet once it was in the condition where we could survive on it. None of that means the A God created the universe. The gods are a lot like us, that is why you have things like the Bible saying we were made in God's image. In the OT, YHWH is a normal seeming man that you could meet and invite into your house and share a meal with.

As for people dying young etc…if you truly believe in Jesus words, when he talks about man having a spirit and a body in which his spirit/soul dwells, then in the grand scheme of things, death is not the end. And there is a much bigger picture to it all, which needs to be carefully considered.

Death is real and I do not like people who trivialize it. Have you ever died or do you know someone personally who has and has come back from the dead? Have you ever read in the Bible about the "pains of death"? Death is a horrible, bad, evil thing and you should not take it lightly, that is a big mistake. Read the Psalms of David and about the deliverer, and think about why such things are in the Bible. We should be gods and live forever. It is not natural for us to die.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Right, the gods placed us on this planet once it was in the condition where we could survive on it. None of that means the A God created the universe. The gods are a lot like us, that is why you have things like the Bible saying we were made in God's image. In the OT, YHWH is a normal seeming man that you could meet and invite into your house and share a meal with.

Well, there is the passage in Genesis where YHWH is described as walking in the Garden of Eden, but this is generally regarded as being meant in a figurative sense, and is not meant to mean that God literally walked around in the Garden.

There were so called “mighty men”, mentioned in the OT, and these were sometimes given the title of God or Gods but I don’t see these as being the creator of the universe, or being the Father God, talked about by Jesus.

Originally posted by Joecroft
. . . but your argument was, that because evil exists, that God could not have created this universe.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You can go to the Wikipedia article on "The Problem of Evil", if you do not already know what I am talking about. It is a very ancient question that goes back to the Greek philosophers. It is not something I created to think about. If you want a nice quick course, go onto the jrandi religion and philosophy forum and make a post saying you think the universe is just fine. The members will be very accommodating to straighten you out on that.

Yes I’m aware of the age old ”Problem of Evil", and the various views of Aristotle, Plato, the Gnostic “demiurge” and the Christian “fall of man” explanations; all of which claim to have an answer to the age old problem.

Anyway, I don’t think you’re quite understanding, what I have been trying to explain to you. I know that evil exists, but I don’t see it as a problem…lol

I mean, I don’t see it as a problem, whereby God would have to be excluded from the possibility of ever creating this universe, just because of the logical reasoning, that God is good, and therefore wouldn’t create a world with evil in it. IMO, this view is false reasoning, because of the reasons I have already explained in my other posts.

Of course, you, me, and everyone has a problem with evil, as does God, but that is not a reason in itself, to conclude that God did not create the universe, just because evil exists within it etc…

I’ll try to expand on this below…

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Death is real and I do not like people who trivialize it. Have you ever died or do you know someone personally who has and has come back from the dead? Have you ever read in the Bible about the "pains of death"? Death is a horrible, bad, evil thing and you should not take it lightly, that is a big mistake. Read the Psalms of David and about the deliverer, and think about why such things are in the Bible. We should be gods and live forever. It is not natural for us to die.

Remember the verses in Ecclesiastes? Where it describes that there is a season for everything.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,

I don’t take death lightly at all, far from it, I just don’t see death as evil, I see it as a natural cycle of life. But like I said in my previous post, it is the only the body which dies, but not the soul/spirit of the person. This is what I meant, when I said there was a bigger picture to Gods grand design.

As for the pain of death, and for that matter just pain in general; it is necessary part of our experience in this life, without which, we would never learn right from wrong. And in fact, if pain didn’t exist, at all, it would be more harmful than good, as crazy as that might sound.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Well, there is the passage in Genesis where YHWH is described as walking in the Garden of Eden, but this is generally regarded as being meant in a figurative sense, and is not meant to mean that God literally walked around in the Garden.

I don't know where you find a consensus on if you take that as figurative. I don't see where it would indicate in the text that it should be taken as anything but literal.
The best example of what I was talking about is Abraham was living near a grove and he was sitting outside the entrance to his tent in the hot part of the day and looked up to see YHWH. YHWH and two traveling companions were on their way to Sodom to see if it was as really evil as it had been reported. Abraham asked YHWH to stop for a while to eat a nice meal with him, and YHWH did. I don't see how you can take that as being "figurative".
Another story is Gideon, again staying at a grove, was holding a conversation with YHWH when a man appeared to tell Gideon a message. When the man left, YHWH asked Gideon what that was all about. Gideon told YHWH that it was the prophet of God, giving him the word of God. So, obviously YHWH is not God, and is only indirectly connected to God.

reply to post by jmdewey60



Sorry for the delay, an ATS user sent me a u2u, asking if I might be one of his long lost family members. I had to try and find the right words to let the person down gently, whilst explaining that Joecroft is only my handle name, and not my real name.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't know where you find a consensus on if you take that as figurative. I don't see where it would indicate in the text that it should be taken as anything but literal.
The best example of what I was talking about is Abraham was living near a grove and he was sitting outside the entrance to his tent in the hot part of the day and looked up to see YHWH. YHWH and two traveling companions were on their way to Sodom to see if it was as really evil as it had been reported. Abraham asked YHWH to stop for a while to eat a nice meal with him, and YHWH did. I don't see how you can take that as being "figurative".

Funnily enough, neither do I lol

I think that back then if you saw a “mighty man” or God like person, maybe with wings, or a body glowing in white light etc, you might automatically jump to the conclusion that you just saw God/YHWH. Of course, contrast that verse, to the OT scripture, which state’s that “no man can see God and live” … and you kind of end up in a quandary.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Another story is Gideon, again staying at a grove, was holding a conversation with YHWH when a man appeared to tell Gideon a message. When the man left, YHWH asked Gideon what that was all about. Gideon told YHWH that it was the prophet of God, giving him the word of God. So, obviously YHWH is not God, and is only indirectly connected to God.

Yes, very good observation JM, but I can’t help thinking that maybe, they just saw angels instead, not just because of what I mentioned above but because, it would seem strange that God would not know the answer to such a simple question. But yes your absolutely right, in this verse YHWH is either something different altogether, or those men made a honest mistake.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft
My point of bringing this all up is you don't really have a connection between who you think might be God, and the creation of the entire universe, which is a very big place.
I got my attitude adjustment a couple years ago when I watched a video of a lecture by a researcher/astronomer explaining what the universe was, in terms of filaments, bound in strands, made of clusters of galaxies.
Some dude, walking over to Sodom to see what those people are doing does not seem to be someone who made all that.
Now you do find claims that sound like something that may approach the concept of a cosmic creation by a particular entity but they are all in Job, where you have this god-type person presenting himself as one who can not be questioned. Job does question him and refutes him and appeals to a higher authority. The implication is that this was probably the Satan of the first chapter, acting things out for his own aggrandizement. The reality is obviously something very different.