What would it take for Police/ Military to side with the people?

Recently we've seen all kinds of protests (mostly peaceful) and horrible acts of police brutality to go along with it. I know some of the protesters may have been out of line, but is all of this necessary?


(not sure if this vid has been posted on ATS yet, credit to whoever has)



(from 'Corruption Exposed' thread 'Proof Of Infiltrators and Provocateurs At OWS Oakland'

The police and other government agents have been keeping citizens in check and sometimes rightly so (in peaceful, non violent ways) and other times in horrible fashion. But WTF people? What will it take for some of these officers and govt agents to join the side of the citizens and realize they've been not only battling the protestors, but their own family, veterans and community members?

Will it be a couple of missed pay checks from the government agencies that stop them from putting on their badge? Will the sheer number of people protesting be able to show these police they may be on the wrong side of the fence? Will they eventually receive orders and realize its wrong what they are being told to do? Will they realize its against their own countries constitution? Or do these people realize whats really going on but too scared to face the reality of how evil our world has become?

I by no means am trying to insinuate every police officer, veteran, or government agent is on the wrong side of the fence, and i respect them for their good work and risks they've taken, but its going too far. When will the hive mind cease and freedom and liberty ring free in this country? When will the government agencies and paramilitary work for the people and not what seems to be a shadow government with ill intent for its people? I'll leave you with this video, this US veteran says it all....



And again, a big thanks to all of you Veteran ATS members who have been police officers, in the military, or other service and are working to 'Occupy The Truth', I appreciate you, and sincerely appreciate your efforts in fighting for the constitution and liberty that this country was built on.

OCCUPY REALITY!!

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


Wait till they too lose their pay check then see who they side with..

Some will side with the people sooner but not all..

They are "the people" just as much as you are.

Do you think that if they put on civilian clothes and go to a protest where they would not be recognized that they would be treated any different?

They will probably change sides if they don't get paid...the police get screwed over by the elite just like us.
If they are told to go in heavy, and someone gets hurt, its not the top cops or they're pay masters who take the fall, its the low ranking officers. They must realise this...I mean they're not total idiots...are they?

reply to post by ziggyproductions05

Not a LEO but a vet, IMHO it would take a lot of convincing that they are following the orders of corrupt and illegitimate people who's words and actions are unjust. To honor their oath to the constitution "to protect from all enemy's foreign and domestic".

Edit
Do you think that TPTB have not considered the psychology of their servants and missing paychecks? They will squeeze every drop of blood out of you before they run out of loot to keep their armies happy.

reply to post by ziggyproductions05

A major injection of brain cells, remorse and understanding. Yeah, that should do it...

Originally posted by ga-`tv-gi
reply to post by ziggyproductions05

 

Not a LEO but a vet, IMHO it would take a lot of convincing that they are following the orders of corrupt and illegitimate people who's words and actions are unjust. To honor their oath to the constitution "to protect from all enemy's foreign and domestic".

Thanks for the reply and your efforts in service. For you personally, what would be the turning point be to realize the orders your'e taking are against the initial oath you took? Do you kill your mother or father if your commanding officer says they're domestic terrorists and you know they're not?

You're right, the oath says "to protect from all enemy's foreign and domestic", but who judges who the terrorists are? Is wanting freedom and the rights promised to you as a citizen of the US becoming synonymous with domestic terrorism? thanks again for your reply.

Originally posted by mileysubet
They are "the people" just as much as you are.

Do you think that if they put on civilian clothes and go to a protest where they would not be recognized that they would be treated any different?

Its not necessarily their uniform, but their actions that would make them recognizable, at least to me.



Judging from this video, its not too hard to point out a plain clothes officer vs a uniformed one.

One more thiing before I go. Look into the Stanford Prison Experiment. The powers do not have to pay people a great deal to be brutal. The just have to sanction brutality and that is about it. You think these guys will not get off on it? I think a lot of them would do their jobs for free if they could lose their self control and not be punished.

I used to go to the Great Smoke Out in DC on July 4, 2011. I won't tell you what it is, but its a protest, but it was always surrounded by police.......
who didn't do a thing.
Until people got brash and plain stupid and got into the face of cops who were standing there just watching the show.

Ever consider the protesters may be idiots?

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


Idk, it's hard to say really. I'd be willing to bet that most of these officers, if confronted out of uniform about anything that the police have done that could even be considered wrong, would probobly just default on the good ol' "Im just doing my job/taking orders." For me that's just the thing; "YES! You are taking orders blindly!" There could be nothing worse than sacraficing your literal physical ability to think for your own to a government that gives you a total bs reason for doing it. It's a whole lot of brainwashing and it takes years to reverse the psychological affects of such a process.

In the end the police/military will HAVE to side with the people or else they may find themselves in quite an awful predicament and in very far over their heads.

Originally posted by jcord
One more thiing before I go. Look into the Stanford Prison Experiment. The powers do not have to pay people a great deal to be brutal. The just have to sanction brutality and that is about it. You think these guys will not get off on it? I think a lot of them would do their jobs for free if they could lose their self control and not be punished.

Nail on the head!
Power is more alluring than money in most cases. I've had dealings with police where bullying and exercising of power came before the law /public safety/keeping the peace, not tarring all with the same brush but I think it would take more than a missed paycheck to make many 'officers' relinquish their power to act with impunity. They are only human as you have pointed out.

Originally posted by jcord
One more thiing before I go. Look into the Stanford Prison Experiment.

I think i've heard of that. Isnt that the experiment about power and even the professor running the experiment got violent and over powering to the 'prisoners'? Glad you brought that up, thanks.

The powers do not have to pay people a great deal to be brutal. The just have to sanction brutality and that is about it.

True, but what happens when said violence is against ones own family or community members? I definitely see what you're saying but brutality is already sanctioned, by the government no less, and its called Mixed Martial Arts and its about competition, brutality and discipline as well. The difference with MMA and police brutality is MMA is sanctioned with weight classes, rules, no weapons are allowed, no men fight women or children, no tasers, batons, or guns are allowed against defenseless, unknowing opponents who are practicing their rights. Heck, hunting is sanctioned by the government, which allows you to kill defenseless animals from far distances (dont get me wrong, im all for hunting animals for survival, but not for fun).

You think these guys will not get off on it? I think a lot of them would do their jobs for free if they could lose their self control and not be punished.

Well the problem is there are many other ways for these guys to 'get off' per se, as I mentioned above, without beating women, children, and others who are unarmed and havent committed any crime. Instead of just seceding and allowing their behavior to continue, is there anything that can be done to help this problem? Or is it just human nature we're seeing play out like the Stanford experiment you mentioned above?

reply to post by ziggyproductions05

Thanks for the reply and your efforts in service. For you personally, what would be the turning point be to realize the orders your'e taking are against the initial oath you took?

That point has came and gone on a personal note. When the country me and before me fought and bled for, labels us as suspects on a list. Thats just for starters.

Is wanting freedom and the rights promised to you as a citizen of the US becoming synonymous with domestic terrorism?

Sadly so

You're right, the oath says "to protect from all enemy's foreign and domestic", but who judges who the terrorists are? .

Something I learned a long time ago about labeling someone as a terrorist, its just a point of view. Some say terrorist some say freedom fighter and some say patriot.

reply to post by facewhatly


Thanks for the response and honesty. Im sure you've seen the movie 'Full Metal Jacket' and the effects Sergeant Hartman words and actions had on some of his marines, one in particular ( i wont ruin it for those of you who have not seen the movie, you must be living on another planet if so).

Thinking about it more, I guess I can see a bit more clearly how orders can be so deeply ingrained some peoples minds. Take a look at the US military 'deathsquads'....

Last week Army Specialist Jeremy Morlock pleaded guilty to his role and was sentenced to 24 years in prison.
Four more soldiers also face court-martial; alleged ringleader Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, Specialist Adam C. Winfield, Specialist Michael S. Wagnon II and Private first class Andrew H. Holmes.

They were all part of the 5th Stryker Combat Brigade, of the 2nd Infantry Division, accused of carrying out at least four executions in Kandahar last year.

The soldiers allegedly opened fire on civilians for no reason and covered up their attacks by planting guns on their victims. The magazine claims that for the soldiers, "killing innocent Afghan civilians became less a reason for concern than a cause for celebration."

Their first alleged kill was a 15-year-old boy, whose finger was removed and kept by one of the soldiers as a trophy. "He wanted to keep the finger forever and wanted to dry it out," the magazine quoted a friend as saying. "He was proud of his finger."

Rolling Stone said the finger was later used as a bet in a poker game

from US death squad purposely killed afghan civilians

thanks again everyone for their thoughts

We need not engage in a guessing game. Look at all of history. The people running the show have been studying human nature from the beginning. They know how to play divide and conquer. Did you know that a lots of Jews participated and collaborated with the NAZIs? Some did so with fear, but others did so with glee. Look at Iraq right now. All the powers have to do is set up us v them. That is already in place. Start taking away the necessities of life and people will turn into ravenous animals right quick. Their was a population bottleneck theorized to have occured ~70,000 years ago. One of the ideas about how the population got so low was that a lot of people were killed off by the "event" and its immediate and residual effects, but also people began preying on each other. Look into historical siege events. Husbands kill and eat their familes. Women kill and eat their babies. Human nature is full of ugly things that you have not thought of because up until now you have lived in the land of plenty.

Originally posted by ziggyproductions05

Originally posted by jcord
One more thiing before I go. Look into the Stanford Prison Experiment.

I think i've heard of that. Isnt that the experiment about power and even the professor running the experiment got violent and over powering to the 'prisoners'? Glad you brought that up, thanks.

The powers do not have to pay people a great deal to be brutal. The just have to sanction brutality and that is about it.

True, but what happens when said violence is against ones own family or community members? I definitely see what you're saying but brutality is already sanctioned, by the government no less, and its called Mixed Martial Arts and its about competition, brutality and discipline as well. The difference with MMA and police brutality is MMA is sanctioned with weight classes, rules, no weapons are allowed, no men fight women or children, no tasers, batons, or guns are allowed against defenseless, unknowing opponents who are practicing their rights. Heck, hunting is sanctioned by the government, which allows you to kill defenseless animals from far distances (dont get me wrong, im all for hunting animals for survival, but not for fun).

You think these guys will not get off on it? I think a lot of them would do their jobs for free if they could lose their self control and not be punished.

Well the problem is there are many other ways for these guys to 'get off' per se, as I mentioned above, without beating women, children, and others who are unarmed and havent committed any crime. Instead of just seceding and allowing their behavior to continue, is there anything that can be done to help this problem? Or is it just human nature we're seeing play out like the Stanford experiment you mentioned above?

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


Oh man, that literally makes me sick to my stomach.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
I used to go to the Great Smoke Out in DC on July 4, 2011. I won't tell you what it is, but its a protest, but it was always surrounded by police.......
who didn't do a thing.

Well, so you know, the even hasnt always been peaceful or full of peaceful cops. In DC in 2000 at the gathering you mentioned attending there were plenty of reports of brutality by police and i've barely looked into it.

Heres an excerpt from an article about police brutality at the 'Smoke Out' event in 2000

...As darkness fell on the July 4 smoke-in, my partner and I were on our way out of the park when I saw two black police officers standing over a scared-looking pair of Latino youngsters.
"I'm getting really tired of you, get your ass on your feet," the shorter of the two officers said to a Hispanic girl who was kneeling on the ground in front of him. He picked up her backpack and began to search it; I took one picture. The officers glared at me with open derision and told me to leave. One of the officers, later identified as JA Minix, walked over to where I stood on the periphery.
He was already angry when we began talking. I asked him if he could provide me an official US Park Police policy on photographer proximity. Within a few seconds, Minix had knocked me to the ground. I informed him and other officers who were leaping on my back that I was a medical pot patient who had a severe spinal injury, and that their actions were creating more injuries.
The officers responded by kicking me in the ribs, pulling my hair and eyelids, spraying mace in my eyes, pushing my face into the ground in an attempt to suffocate me, kneeing me, twisting my arms at dangerous angles, and executing a variety of pressure point "pain compliance" holds.
The strangest irony was that I was not resisting arrest at all- the officers could have handcuffed me at any time, but chose to beat me instead. The abuse continued for an eternity, while the crowd threw bottles and rocks, and shouted protests.
"He wasn't doing anything but taking pictures, you Nazis," was typical of what I heard.
Officers handcuffed me behind my back, then dragged me through the circling protesters to where they'd parked a paddy wagon just next to the roadside. This location was useful for them; few in the crowd could see around the truck. The officers took advantage of the seclusion by ramming my head into the wagon.
I was still on my feet when the DARE cop came up behind me and said, "Put him on his knees." The other cops didn't move to hurt me fast enough, so the DARE cop kicked my calves and knees from behind. I fell forward, again hitting my head, and blacked out for a few seconds.
When I woke up, police were rifling through my camera backpack, removing exposed film from canisters. One of my most expensive lenses rolled into the street. I heard my partner yelling at police and crying out in pain; she later explained that at that moment one of the cops who had instigated the incident had been injuring her with a pain compliance hold, trying to pry my tape recorder from her hands.
Two cops threw me in the paddy wagon. The DARE cop followed me in, kicking me as I lay on the floor until I had been pushed far back into a small fenced cell.
"You're a pot-smoking pussy," he said, smiling. "Kiss my ass, you son of a bitch."

Until people got brash and plain stupid and got into the face of cops who were standing there just watching the show.

That is true and is a lot of times the case, i cant argue that, but it doesnt account for the thousands of unprovoked incidents and use of excessive force on unarmed civilians by police, handing down beatings to those arrested and handcuffed (defensless with arms locked behind them) throwing out that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' idea to the curb. I know the law and every LEO cant be perfect but these acts are being embraced and accepted as norm by fellow officers it seems.

Ever consider the protesters may be idiots?

Of course protesters may be idiots, but what exact action deems them an idiot? I only see protesting becoming a problem if the protestors are looting or using violence to make their point. When did protesting, being an idiot, or having a differing statement become against the law and deem someone deserves a beating?

But, lets not get into a wits debate between protestors and cops, last i checked neither needed anything more than a high school degree or GED to perform their job.

To respond to a non violent verbal tirade or protest with tear gas or a stiff baton to ones skull is wrong and against everything this country was built on.

Military are litterally brainwashed to follow orders from thier superiors, This is why they chase down machine gun nests, you need to get the top military leaders onside sooner rather than later.