About Free Will.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Hi,

I struggled for years with the concept of Free Will as there was something about it that just didn't seem to make sense to me.. I don't mean in an Indoctrinated logical away.. but in a more primal, deep down inside kind of way.

So over the years it became one question I intended to find an answer for.. for myself of course. Well.. these many, many years later I find my own perception has changed drastically from the Indoctrinated belief we all brainwashed into Believing. And for some years now I have had an image in my mind that helps explain it in a more basic way to others.

So.. here is a little background info to make things easier to understand when I get into the main Concept I wish to offer.

Those few people who have slipped the limitations of their physical existence with it's inherent Belief-Indoctrination and began the process of Remembering the Soul they really are, know fuill well that Souls are massive things. That we employ the subtle supporting layers for Earth (this Experience offering) initially found at the topmost level of the 'Astral' that we call the Akasha. It is far more than a hall of records.

At that place we do preview options.. a process displaying Possibilities and Probabilities.. and one that we use with other Souls to find what will provide us with the Exeriences we desire to have.. so that we can then make our co-creative agreements before reaching into this extremely dense world of experience called Earth.

Basically it is not so different to planning out a Holiday/Vacation.. you do your research, make your plans based on that so that you have your Vacation Itinerary ....and away you go to experience it ... as it plays out moment by moment.

That last line should give a hint to you about Free Will.

Now.. please play along with this next bit for a minute or so.

Imagine you have a piece of chicken-coop wire in a square or rectangle shape.. then imagine rolling it up diagonally and squashing it tightly into a tube shape.. here you have an illustration of a Life Plan.

Look at one end of the wire tube and note the first .. outermost.. wire. We could think of that wire as the point in which you came into the Physical Body in this life.

Look at that wire.. follow it into the wire tube in your imaginary hands.. note how it intersects a lot of other wires as it enters the tube? Note too how it continues to offer different directions at every point the wires cross over.. we could think of these crossing points as Choices included in your Life's Itinerary/

Each Choice moment.. wires crossing over.. offers you a different direction to take in Life.. whether it is a slight deviation from another direction or major turn-around in life.. you make the Choices as you go.

There are some things to point out here. ....

This illustration shows that each choice made takes you on a slightly altered course in life.. which means that the time you die is not set in stone.. it is wholly dependant on the choices you are making in every moment and the directions they take you.

The illustration also shows us that we did not include many, many other choices in our Itinerary.. just the same as your Vacation Itinerary where you may not be able to choose to fly to another country on a whim.. but you are just as happy to enjoy a day at the markets instead.

What I'm trying to get across here is that Free Will is limited only by the Itinerary you the Soul planned to exerience... you cannot make changes to that Itinerary once in the life.. you simply live it out, make choices in every moment.. basically, you make it up as go along in the life with it's chosen limitations for the Experience.

So.. Free Will is about being free to make the choices in each moment as they happen.. but it is a limited Freedom in that it is wholly dependant on the choices you included in your Life's Itinerary.

I think we do have free will, in the sense that we do everything because we see a reason to do it.

However, I believe that with every choice we make, a new thread of your current timeline is created and branches off as a new set of timelines based on the myriad of choices you could have made.

In that sense, you have infinite free will because you can make infinite choices in infinite dimensions infinitely through time.

So, make the choices that you feel are right in the consciousness anchored in your current awareness. Because, somewhere, sometime, you make all of the other choices you could possibly make.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Do you believe we have free will?

Your will is always going to be limited by the choices you're given within a certain context. It's like picking a card from a stacked deck. You can either pick from the limited number of 52 cards, or you can choose not to pick anything at all and not play. If you're talking about "God," then you don't really even have the choice not to play, and because God is all-powerful, the deck is always stacked.

But if you pick the wrong card, you'll burn in Hell for it. Nice free will.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


A) Aklushla we have butted heads over this before and never really reached agreeance, so I will not say to much You seem to have some hang up that despite there is no free will this excludes people from facing the consequences of their actions, which is simply not the case.

B) You may say this an exceptional, improbable situation and you're right. For this can never happen and therefore it cannot be tested. But it is the exception that proves the rule. If you accept this premise then you have to accept there is no free will, only the illusion of choice and the consequences one must face due to a choice that has been predetermined for them.
edit on 10/11/2011 by 1littlewolf because: (no reason given)

From A) ...then you have completely misunderstood what I have been shining a very bright light on!
IF...we were automatons...(which we are not!)...one could be absolved of the situations in which we found ourselves in, where we were not making decisions, and therefore could not then turn around and say...I'm sorry, I did that...and I am responsible for this action (whatever that action is)...
The process you are describing, is exactly this process! The abolition of FREE WILL 'effectively' renders you blame free - exempt from the consequences of your actions!

How, can you have NO FREE WILL...and be responsible for your actions?

Once again...
CHOICE is part of the process of FREE WILL...

This is the reason why people tend to feel impotent to situations, if they believe they have no CHOICE!
Everything is happening TO them!...and they believe thier actions are being controlled...I.E. NO FREE WILL.
The process works whether you believe you have FREE WILL or not...since the compulsion to not believe...IS ALSO A PART OF THE PROCESS OF THE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE...

From B...
In what real life situation can you apply a real life demonstration to prove to me that you have no FREE WILL?...or that a decision you make is not somehow a result of a decision you or somebody else makes?

Once again...
FREE WILL, as parts of its mechanism includes...
CHOICE
and
DECISION.

You cannot, in all honesty and sanity, attempt to tell me there is no FREE WILL...

This assumes...
No decision and no choice...

Now...limited FREE WILL is another story.
You, and others may be under the distictly erroneous impression that this means there is no FREE WILL...exactly as people who find themselves in circumstances where thier choices are limited (usually, because they, by thier own choices, have ended up in them!) SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY...

Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


Maybe we are just automations going through the motions of a predetermined fate. It’s just we have a consciousness, an awareness that makes us different to robots. Maybe we are not ultimately responsible for our actions. A judge sentencing a criminal will usually take into account 'mitigating circumstances', and reduce his or her sentence accordingly.

I personally do not believe that prison solves much. But it is necessary at this point in the evolution of the world at this present point in time. For if a person is so affected by their inborn personality and prior experiences that if they were ever to find themselves in a similar situation then they would commit the same crime again, then they are a danger to themselves and others and need to be removed from society. And until we have thought of something better, prison is all we’ve got. It is best that these people do not walk the streets until it is deemed they have been rehabilitated.

Just because your actions and choices are predetermined however they still have consequences to both you and those around you. You must face those consequences and in turn endeavour that your ego, operating under the illusion of free will, make the best choices for both you and the world in general

I think the difference between you and I is that you see time as a spider web of possible outcomes determined by the choices we make or could have made. As I feel that every choice and action is predetermined I see time only as a straight, linear entity leading eventually back to the Source. This I cannot see us resolving anytime soon, so I guess we’re gonna have to agree then to disagree

The beauty of life however is that we do not know what is going to happen next. This is why I believe the illusion of free will exists, for ultimately you must still make the choice. The best you can do is try and understand why you made the choices you made, and face the veiled future form there.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf
reply to post by akushla99

 

The beauty of life however is that we do not know what is going to happen next. This is why I believe the illusion of free will exists, for ultimately you must still make the choice. The best you can do is try and understand why you made the choices you made, and face the veiled future form there.

You may be speaking of a metaphysical 'concept'...but I am telling you the way things ARE.
...and what I am telling you is totally consistent with what you claim is correct...I am saying, you are correct because, the way things ARE (as I have explained them) encapsulates what you experience...

I do not 'see' time as a spider web.

Specifically referring to the subject of FREE WILL, the illustration I approximate, is a perambulating line (representing the past) - a solidified past...the line represents the 'choice' path...the path that led you to the place where you are NOW...
The NOW, is represented by a NODAL point, the point at which you make the decision/choice that solidifies the line behind you...
All other choices/decisions you could have made before this point, have collapsed as possibilities and probabilities before this nodal point...
However, before you lies the DELTA of all probable and possible choices and decisions you could make - uncollapsed!

Your FREE WILL determines, through your choice and decision, which path forward from this nodal point you take...
The decision or choice to limit those choices before you, limits your possibilities and probabilities, since they all lie before you, ready to be culled...(obviously you can't choose it all at the same time)...

My friend, this is the way it is, whether you CHOOSE to believe it or not...and choosing not to believe it IS one of the choices/decisions which collapses the pathways before you...

Akushla

Come on guys, of course we have free will.

We have been brainwashed - get out of it!

As men, you are the next generation of warfarers - if you choose to die for some country wanting to get rich.

Get real, please.

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


Feeling better today cat?

Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


No,

I am feeling worse today.

Even more than yesterday.

Because I despare of mankind.

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


Look...how big the sky is...

Akushla

Many of our actions are autonomous, that is, we just "do" and things "happen" - perhaps that is our free will, as there is no choice in such actions, the paradox is that we cannot predict what the outcomes are of choiceless actions, and thus such actions are "free".

For example, when I do not think about it, I simply can type the first thing that occurs to my awareness, I only know what I am about to do the instant that I actually do it - however, every so often, a "choice" emerges and I can write one sentence or another, go in one direction or another - one might call that my "free will" however, it is not "free" because the choices are pre-defined, there is no choice three other than just to continue to type from my stream of awareness.

Perhaps the more unexpected and autonomous actions are our "free will" and the "choices" that we have to make at certain points are measures of our lack of free-will.

You can not do things that you have not learned how to do.

If you have not learned physics, you can not use your free will to solve an advanced physics problem.

Every single moment, waking and sleeping, things happen sometimes in the most minute and seemingly boring way that that impact our LEARNING, PERCEPTIONS and DECISIONS.

You can be open to possibilities, but you have to have learned at some point how to be open to them,

If I show someone a blue ball and a green ball and a box and ask them to pick one ball some will pick either a blue ball or green. Some will open the box and see that there is a red ball there as well.

You would open the box if you have LEARNED that there may be another answer/option.

I think some of this is the individuals brains ability to learn more complex problem solving. Some of it is brain/body chemistry (as in adrenalin,serotonin etc).

Theoretically all possibilities exist, but the reality says otherwise.

Theoretically, you can decipher the Voynich manuscript. Now go use free will to do it.

Originally posted by lellomackin
You can not do things that you have not learned how to do.

If you have not learned physics, you can not use your free will to solve an advanced physics problem.

Every single moment, waking and sleeping, things happen sometimes in the most minute and seemingly boring way that that impact our LEARNING, PERCEPTIONS and DECISIONS.

You can be open to possibilities, but you have to have learned at some point how to be open to them,

If I show someone a blue ball and a green ball and a box and ask them to pick one ball some will pick either a blue ball or green. Some will open the box and see that there is a red ball there as well.

You would open the box if you have LEARNED that there may be another answer/option.

I think some of this is the individuals brains ability to learn more complex problem solving. Some of it is brain/body chemistry (as in adrenalin,serotonin etc).

Theoretically all possibilities exist, but the reality says otherwise.

Theoretically, you can decipher the Voynich manuscript. Now go use free will to do it.

edit on 11-11-2011 by lellomackin because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-11-2011 by lellomackin because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-11-2011 by lellomackin because: because my autocorrect has free will apparently.

What you have written does not make sense!

A) how would you go about 'learning' about physics?

B) if 'decisions' are not brought about through FREE WILL, how are they brought about? Who makes this momentous decision to 'learn' physics?

C) Of what use are 'possibilities' if you have no FREE WILL?

D) there is a large body of psychological literature that demonstrates that people do create possibilities that do NOT exist, and live thier life accordingly...some of them reside in mental institutions...the pathway they have chosen is one of those, so-called 'theoretical' possibilities

E) theoretically you could decode the Voynich manuscript!...IF YOU CHOSE TO PUT IN THE YEARS NECESSARY TO LEARN WHAT IT TAKES TO DECODE IT...USING YOUR FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO DO THIS...

The maintenance of a notion that demostrates that FREE WILL - INDEED - does exist, claiming it does not exist, is paramount to lying to yourself, and demostrates the very process I have described several times already.

The maintenance of a notion requires FREE WILL. The maintenance of a notion that banishes FREE WILL, demonstrates the REALITY of FREE WILL!...and its subsequent collapsed and collapsing possibilities and probabilities.

Akushla

Adjunct to this...

FREE WILL institutes the quality of responsibility.

If there is no FREE WILL, there is no responsibility.

Children and mental patients are deemed to have, lessened qualities of FREE WILL and therefore, at times, are absolved of the responsibility for thier actions...

Thier 'decision' making skills are not developed to a degree to which, it could be said, they are in 'control' of thier decisions, and are therefore, absolved of responsibility.

A machine could not sanely be held accountable for severing the arm of its operator, since it has absolutely NO FREE WILL...and therefore cannot be held responsible, by dent of its lack of FREE WILL.

FREE WILL equates to responsibility.
Non FREE WILL equates to no responsibility.

Akushla

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by 1littlewolf
reply to post by akushla99

 

The beauty of life however is that we do not know what is going to happen next. This is why I believe the illusion of free will exists, for ultimately you must still make the choice. The best you can do is try and understand why you made the choices you made, and face the veiled future form there.

You may be speaking of a metaphysical 'concept'...but I am telling you the way things ARE.
...and what I am telling you is totally consistent with what you claim is correct...I am saying, you are correct because, the way things ARE (as I have explained them) encapsulates what you experience...

I do not 'see' time as a spider web.

Specifically referring to the subject of FREE WILL, the illustration I approximate, is a perambulating line (representing the past) - a solidified past...the line represents the 'choice' path...the path that led you to the place where you are NOW...
The NOW, is represented by a NODAL point, the point at which you make the decision/choice that solidifies the line behind you...
All other choices/decisions you could have made before this point, have collapsed as possibilities and probabilities before this nodal point...
However, before you lies the DELTA of all probable and possible choices and decisions you could make - uncollapsed!

Your FREE WILL determines, through your choice and decision, which path forward from this nodal point you take...
The decision or choice to limit those choices before you, limits your possibilities and probabilities, since they all lie before you, ready to be culled...(obviously you can't choose it all at the same time)...

My friend, this is the way it is, whether you CHOOSE to believe it or not...and choosing not to believe it IS one of the choices/decisions which collapses the pathways before you...

Akushla

So you say......

Don't get me wrong. I would love to be convinced that free will exists. I'm not arguing for the sake of it. But until you can convince me that the following is not true then all your agreements fall down:

A given person in a given situation makes a choice. This choice is based on 2 main factors. The circumstance, and the thought process going on in the persons head. This thought process regarding the circumstance is based on the personality and prior experience. Thought is a brain process which merely reacts to the situation it finds itself in based on the genetic predisposition of its owner and experiences that owner had in the past which have caused the neural pathways to be linked in a certain way.

Now take that same person and put him in the exact same situation, with the exact same thought process operating and he/she will always make the same choice. This then infers that the choice is predetermined based on the circumstance and the thought processes operating. And the next logical step is that if this choice is predetermined, it negates the existence of free will.

Any given person in any given situation can and will only ever make one choice; a choice which is (pre)determined by the circumstance and the thought processes operating. It may appear that we have a myriad of possible choices we can take, and this is the beauty and the mystery of life. But we only ever make one choice. We can only ever make one choice. A choice not just influenced by, but determined by our thoughts and the circumstance.

Hopefully you see what I mean as none of your previous posts have really addressed this properly but it really is the keystone in the whole destiny/freewill debate.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


I see exactly what you are saying...

You are vouchsaving ALL decisions and choices of 'learning' (...and the answer to my question as to why and how this process comes about has not been answered in any satisfactory way!), that get you to the nodal point of NOW, where [in your universe] all of a sudden, you are faced with a situation you had no control over, up to that point?!...and that you spontaneously react to every situation without prior knowledge of anything...but, that sometimes 'stuff' must be 'learned' to get you to nodal points where you could 'decode a Voynich manuscript'...

IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE...

You are offering, as proof, a hypothetical example (which cannot be proven...and consequently is correct - correct, indeed as I have stated, according to the process I have already described), and asked me to disprove it...

If you read carefully over what I have written, you will find that what I have written encompasses, includes, and encloses anything that has been said in these threads about FREE WILL. The process does not distinguish between whether you believe it or not...in fact, it is inherent in its process.

The negation of FREE WILL...uses the process of FREE WILL to do so...

Akushla
:

Of course free will exists! Its just that people have become dependant on the system and will fight to keep it so, (the matrix)

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Any person in any one given situation will only ever make one choice...

Why...would you ever use the word 'choice', to disprove FREE WILL?

Akushla

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Destiny, is like a map...
Where do you 'want' (Will) to go?

Akushla
:

First, let me say I am enjoying this dialog and if I come off as over zealous or offensive that is not my intention. Since, as you can tell, I don't believe that we have free will over our choices, or even the possibilities of our choices, I will take this conversation as a chance to learn something and perhaps it will impact my future decisions.

Originally posted by akushla99

What you have written does not make sense!

A) how would you go about 'learning' about physics?

You would go about learning physics, or choosing to learn physics, because you were TAUGHT to have a thirst for knowledge, or because you wanted to KNOW how things worked because your grandfather liked to do puzzles. It could be something subtle or something easily identifiable. You saw something and you LEARNED something that made you make a decision later on. Our brain is a miraculous instrument that is calculating so many variables it is hard to imagine.

B) if 'decisions' are not brought about through FREE WILL, how are they brought about? Who makes this momentous decision to 'learn' physics?

Exactly!! Who makes this decision? You make it, BASED ON what you have LEARNED as stated above.

I have a friend, who one night was drinking a bit and someone came up and grabbed him by his arm to get his attention to ask him a question. He freaked out and completely lost his marbles. Later, after everyone had gone to bed, I asked him what the hell that was about. After a very long conversation, with him not wanting to deal with what freaked him out, it came to light that his father used to grab him by the arm when he got in trouble. HE LEARNED what that meant to him and he reacted to it based on that.

Now you are going to say he has the free will not to react that way. No, he has to LEARN to overcome that feeling, LEARN. Now by talking to me about it, and recognizing something he had not THOUGHT about before, perhaps in the future he will not react that way. But only if he accepts it (LEARNS from it). Accepting it is not free will. It is based on every other thing he has ever experienced and that determines whether or not he will LEARN from it. It may happen now, it may happen three times from nor or it may never happen.

C) Of what use are 'possibilities' if you have no FREE WILL?

Making a decision allows you to explore possibilities, but it closes others. Everyone that has come before you has closed possibilities for you because of their decisions. Your time line is not a spiderweb, it's more like a Mandelbrot. There are places "you can't get there from here", so to speak. Try to pinpoint the spot on your time line where you lost the possibility that you will ever be able to levitate.

D) there is a large body of psychological literature that demonstrates that people do create possibilities that do NOT exist, and live their life accordingly...some of them reside in mental institutions...the pathway they have chosen is one of those, so-called 'theoretical' possibilities

The pathway they have chosen?!? You don't think brain chemistry or physiological chemistry/responses play a role in this as I stated previously? I would like to hear your thoughts on how those two things affect free will.

E) theoretically you could decode the Voynich manuscript!...IF YOU CHOSE TO PUT IN THE YEARS NECESSARY TO LEARN WHAT IT TAKES TO DECODE IT...USING YOUR FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO DO THIS...

No, ahhhhhh. You don't choose use your free will to do it!!! You LEARN, you said it and you still don't get it. You have to be inclined to do something. You are inclined to do something because of the information that resides in your brain through the things you have LEARNED before.

Do you really think some kid wakes up in Sub Saharan Africa and just uses his free will to go study the Voynich Manuscript?? Does that exist as a possibility on his time line? Please answer me that question if you do decide to reply.

The maintenance of a notion that demonstrates that FREE WILL - INDEED - does exist, claiming it does not exist, is paramount to lying to yourself, and demonstrates the very process I have described several times already.

The maintenance of a notion requires FREE WILL. The maintenance of a notion that banishes FREE WILL, demonstrates the REALITY of FREE WILL!...and its subsequent collapsed and collapsing possibilities and probabilities.

The maintenance of a notion requires KNOWLEDGE. You wouldn't think that to attempt to decode the Voynich Manuscript without KNOWLEDGE of it. If you had knowledge of it, it would require DESIRE. Now we can argue whether or not desire is learned or present in different degrees depending on brain function or natural inclination, but it is also probably a LEARNED behavior.

edit on 11-11-2011 by lellomackin because: (no reason given)