Religion without labels

I have spent a lot of time on ATS reading sometimes very interesting debates on religion but they always end up with group A berating group B in constant circular arguments. So I thought it would be nice to look at religion from a different perspective, one that removes the labels and tries to honestly look at what is beneficial and what is not.

In the interest of keeping this thread civil please refrain from using quotes from the books of your religion to prove a point or to dismiss something because you do not understand it, instead please use the mind you have and provide arguments based on you personal experience as well as asking for clarification from whoever contributes to the thread if something is not understood.

Benefits

1. Most, if not all root religions advise the practitioner to develop themselves, to aim at becoming a better person and the advantage of being part of a group of like minded people means that hopefully you are more inclined to make those positive changes. As well as this religions tend to have a central role model as an example of how it is best done.

2. Love is another tenant in the majority of religions, to love others as you wish to be loved yourself. It helps that love is such an ambiguous word as it encourages the practitioner to take it to its simplest meaning, my favourite being.

“a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend. “

Link
This is again encouraged in a belief that there is higher power (we can debate this later) that expresses love to you unconditionally and practitioners are encouraged to reciprocate this love to others.

3. Compassion is also encouraged as a core value that religion holds dear and its definition speaks for itself

“a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.”

Link
Again this is encouraged through the belief that there is a higher power that has great compassion for us and we should reciprocate.

4. Most religions contain a moral code that encourage the practitioner to lead their life in a way that does not harm others, these same moral codes have laid down the foundation for most of the western worlds legal systems, systems that if were no longer in place would lead to chaos, for example not to kill, not to steal etc.

These are but a few of the benefits and I hope other members of ATS will add their own thoughts and ideas to the list.

Disadvantages

1. Dogma has become an issue with most religions and is one of the biggest obstacles a practitioner has to deal with. It often prevents the practitioner from asking questions that need to be addressed which lead a person down the mimetic path, it is also one of the major factors that result in loss of faith.

2. The biggest disadvantage is the length of time from the original teaching to present day, this has allowed religious teachings to be “edited” be it through mistranslation or for manipulation, to the point of not reflecting the original message and is then often used as propaganda to justify actions and behaviours which would most likely be contrary to the original teachings.

3. Intolerance of each other is another disadvantage, instead of looking at commonalities and working in partnership based on them, different religious groups focus on what sets them apart and allow a rift to form.

I have purposefully left the disadvantages brief to try and encourage some debate.

Higher Power

I had a debate with a friend about would be a good definition of a higher power that would counter the arguments “If there is a higher power how can it let suffering happen” etc. and we came up with this – The higher power is broken into two parts, the body and the consciousness. The body being the material and spiritual universe and the consciousness being a force that is in constant service to life, giving sentient s all they wish.

Again that statement is purposefully vague and up for debate.

Remember please do not go quoting X Y Z, it is a thread for intelligent people to share their thoughts, not a debate as to who is right and wrong.

Thank you for the time you have taken to read this.

reply to post by Jamjar


Why have a debate about religion? I think when everybody kept his or her religion for him/herselve the world would be a much better place.

reply to post by Robbrecht


We live in a multicultural world now, where it has become impossible for that to happen. Different religions now brush up against each other and as long as people look a what religions do not have in common instead of what they have in common there will be inevitable friction.

The purpose of the debate is to examine the benefits and or commonalities as well as what is wrong with religion as a whole. If this was done by society in general then we could work together in making the world a better place rather than focusing on petty squabbles.

reply to post by Robbrecht


It is also an attempt to create a feel good thread as ATS has been full of doom and gloom alot of late

reply to post by Jamjar


My definition of love is putting the needs of others ahead of yourself. I can have a deep sense of attachment to my spouse and still cheat on her in the moment. Do I truly love her? I'd argue no.

When Christina Hendricks offers to let me peek under her top and I say no because I'm more concerned with my Wife's feelings than getting a peek at her cannons... Now that's Love... =)

reply to post by Buddha1098


Unfortunately the dictionary does not reflect the simplest form of love "The wish for another to be happy" so did not want to use it in my original post but thank you for bringing it up.

reply to post by Jamjar


I think it goes further than that. It is the wish for others to be happy even at your own expense.
But that's just my opinion.. I'm probably wrong. =)
And you're welcome! Namaste my friend

reply to post by Jamjar


If you look at it "spiritually" versus "religiously" I think you get two different monsters.

This is just one, humble opinion... mine.

Spirituality to me is being at peace with yourself, and everything around you. Calm, loving, non-judgemental. To me, "god " is everything. Energy. The basis of all that exists. . I can get all scientificky, (word? but that would turn into a long babbling rant, that only my brain would be able to piece together, and most are just philisophical questions with multiple right answers)

now.... Religion to me, is man made. It's a title. Our minds cannot accept things that we cannot or explain or internalize, or dumb down for one another to comprehend. Everything needs a place. A shelf to sit on, if you will.... We have catergorized it, named it different sub categories, created laws around it to control each other, and have turned what could have been a beautiful and peaceful thing, into a profitable business, a cause for war. We think because we named it something, we understand it and own it.

It makes you wonder, think about who coined the names for each of these religions around the world? One man for each named religion and that one man who coined the term "Christian" Or "Catholic" or "Muslim" or any others you can think of.. L Ron Hubbard for christ sykes (pun intended) created his own religion. His own packaged belief system to give to others. Man titles everything. We cannot just accept things for what they really are. We have to disect it, and then whoever has the best interpretation and can sell it to the masses, gets to call it whatever they want. Bam, you have a new religion. And people are willing to die for it when in reality, they are willing to die for Joe Schmoe, who able to verbalize something, it in a manner they were able to understand.


I prefer just existing peacefully.

You've basically covered the benefits and advantages of key religions. I often ask myself, how can anyone discredit or patronize a religion that practices sharing peace, love, and compassion with their fellow man and encourage others to do the same?

Then I remember some of the disadvantages of the faith in particular when the follower begins to come off as hypocritical for not fully practicing what they preach. The other is attaining a self righteous mindset thinking they are superior to unbelievers and dominate the moral high ground by damning others for not believing in their God. Their mission becomes counter productive because of the selfishness behind their actions.

Unfortunately, the majority of people with faith have adapted a double minded mentality. Their good deeds unto others have alternative intentions, such as looking 'holy than thou' before others and scoring points with their God. There are too few true genuinely compassionate, loving religious followers. When confronted by these hypocrites, nonbelievers become detached to the concept and develop a bitter resentment. Then one no longer need labels of denomination such as Christianity or Buddhism to express distaste, they resent the ideology of religion as a whole.

Is it really fair to blame religion? Not all followers of a faith are the same. You can't throw out the bunch because of a few rotten apples.

Religion isn't necessary for any of the benefits you listed. It is therefore superfluous.

reply to post by Jamjar


Hey great thread man.
Sounds exactly like what I believe without the strings, tag lines, labels, of commecialized fundamentalist Christianity. God for give me if it's wrong. But my belief in Christ is as strong as the day is long. I love being
by myself with it. Congregational thought and opinion, can to easily pull one away from the message God may want you to get, thru your own life experiences and thought. It seems to cloud my mind.

SnF

If you love the creator then love all that he has created. If you don't believe in a creator then love anyway because the only thing you get from hate is darkness.

reply to post by randyvs


But my belief in Christ is as strong as the day is long. I love being
by myself with it


I hear ya brotha'...I remember that feeling, and not that I miss it, but there was indeed a feeling of bliss. It can be addictive actually...


But, that brings up another question - how do you know if the path you are currently on is the right one, if you never took time to diverge from it..?


And I ask that with affection, as complacency finds its way into all our lives, regardless of belief...but it seems too often that we pave our own road rather than search for another.

Originally posted by facelift
reply to post by randyvs

 

But my belief in Christ is as strong as the day is long. I love being
by myself with it

But, that brings up another question - how do you know if the path you are currently on is the right one, if you never took time to diverge from it..?

Every single choice you make, creates the next step in your path. There are not multiple paths you can take. Only one. You cannot get away from where you have already been. But each step you add can change your direction. There are no wrong choices. If they were wrong, your ego would never have let you make that decision in the first place. It's job is to protect you from yourself. If you are curious and want to know if it's going in the right direction, take a look around you. Are you where you want to be right now in life? The answer is yes. You put yourself there. If you want something different, do it. It's all up to you.

Originally posted by Buddha1098
reply to post by Jamjar

 

I think it goes further than that. It is the wish for others to be happy even at your own expense.
But that's just my opinion.. I'm probably wrong. =)
And you're welcome! Namaste my friend

edit on 9-11-2011 by Buddha1098 because: (no reason given)

One has to be careful with that approach though as it is easy to subconsciously develop some form of resentment, as you probably already know it is difficult to remain mindful all of the time. So yes even at your own expense, but not all the time

Originally posted by nopeitwasntme
reply to post by Jamjar

 

If you look at it "spiritually" versus "religiously" I think you get two different monsters.

This is just one, humble opinion... mine.

Spirituality to me is being at peace with yourself, and everything around you. Calm, loving, non-judgemental. To me, "god " is everything. Energy. The basis of all that exists. . I can get all scientificky, (word?

but that would turn into a long babbling rant, that only my brain would be able to piece together, and most are just philisophical questions with multiple right answers)

now.... Religion to me, is man made. It's a title. Our minds cannot accept things that we cannot or explain or internalize, or dumb down for one another to comprehend. Everything needs a place. A shelf to sit on, if you will.... We have catergorized it, named it different sub categories, created laws around it to control each other, and have turned what could have been a beautiful and peaceful thing, into a profitable business, a cause for war. We think because we named it something, we understand it and own it.

It makes you wonder, think about who coined the names for each of these religions around the world? One man for each named religion and that one man who coined the term "Christian" Or "Catholic" or "Muslim" or any others you can think of.. L Ron Hubbard for christ sykes (pun intended) created his own religion. His own packaged belief system to give to others. Man titles everything. We cannot just accept things for what they really are. We have to disect it, and then whoever has the best interpretation and can sell it to the masses, gets to call it whatever they want. Bam, you have a new religion. And people are willing to die for it when in reality, they are willing to die for Joe Schmoe, who able to verbalize something, it in a manner they were able to understand.


I prefer just existing peacefully.

Thank you for responding, and I agree but....

Religion as we know it today has a deep seated spirituality about it that is often sidelined by its practitioners, that was why I highlighted a few of the negative aspects of religion. Its my opinion that in the early days of religion communities saw an advantage to organising spirituality to benefit the community as a whole, unfortunately as you stated it has lost its way and become something that it was never intended to be.

reply to post by facelift


Star
Good question from your view. All I can say is, I have faith in the Superstar. He said he would be with me even thru the valley of death. I have a natural fear of crossing that valley alone. He is the only reason I fear nothing.
Save sharks and blackwidows.

reply to post by Jamjar


exactly.. ( i think I might have missed stating that in my response) Spirituality would be the basis for religion as a whole. It's what was packaged and sold as "religion". And has turned into something far far away from itself.

That deep seeded belief you mention, I think stems from humans constant emotional need for contact and acceptance. Everyone experiencing the same thing together en mass, is much more powerful when trying to convince others to join you, than standing alone in silence "just being one with [insert diety/god here] "

When someone says "I'm spiritual not religious", they, like me, (I assume) do no fall into the mob mentality of one god, one voice, on creator, my god is better than your god (most do, not saying all)

We are all creators of our existence here.

Originally posted by DanteMustDie
You've basically covered the benefits and advantages of key religions. I often ask myself, how can anyone discredit or patronize a religion that practices sharing peace, love, and compassion with their fellow man and encourage others to do the same?

Then I remember some of the disadvantages of the faith in particular when the follower begins to come off as hypocritical for not fully practicing what they preach. The other is attaining a self righteous mindset thinking they are superior to unbelievers and dominate the moral high ground by damning others for not believing in their God. Their mission becomes counter productive because of the selfishness behind their actions.

Unfortunately, the majority of people with faith have adapted a double minded mentality. Their good deeds unto others have alternative intentions, such as looking 'holy than thou' before others and scoring points with their God. There are too few true genuinely compassionate, loving religious followers. When confronted by these hypocrites, nonbelievers become detached to the concept and develop a bitter resentment. Then one no longer need labels of denomination such as Christianity or Buddhism to express distaste, they resent the ideology of religion as a whole.

Is it really fair to blame religion? Not all followers of a faith are the same. You can't throw out the bunch because of a few rotten apples.

Thank you and very well put

We have people waking up to the banking system etc. so hopefully one day we may see the same thing happening in religious establishments, with people reclaiming the core values of the religions they follow as well as seeing the commonalities that they all possess...... well I can live in hope.

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
Religion isn't necessary for any of the benefits you listed. It is therefore superfluous.

Good point, however would people continue to hold those values over generations or would self interest override those qualities. As I said in the OP one benefit is that it provides an environment where people can support each other to keep those values alive, though I cannot say that it is essential.