Who pays Corporate taxes? People do!

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posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 01:40 PM
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Here's an interesting article that breaks down exactly who it is that pays those corporate taxes. They make an excellent point in saying that corporations are no more capable of paying taxes than cars or property. Cars and property don't pay for car or property taxes and corporations, being artificial entities, don't pay taxes either. Taxes come out of the pockets of people somewhere along the line.


Who Pays Corporate Taxes?

Virginia has a car tax. Does the car pay the tax? In most political jurisdictions, there's a property tax. Does property pay the tax? You say: "Williams, that's lunacy. Neither a car nor property pays taxes. Only flesh-and-blood people pay taxes!" What about a corporation? As it turns out, a corporation is an artificial creation of the legal system and, as such, a legal fiction. A corporation is not a person and therefore cannot pay taxes. When tax is levied on a corporation, who pays it?

What about raising taxes on corporations as a means to get them to pay their "rightful share of government"? If a tax is levied on a corporation and if it is to survive, it will have one of several responses or some combination thereof. One response is to raise the price of its product, so customers share part of the burden. Another response is to lower dividends, so shareholders share a part of the burden. And a considerable portion of reduced dividend burden falls on ordinary non-rich people. According to the Tax Foundation, 19 percent of federal tax returns report dividend income but 42 percent of taxpayers older than 65 report dividend income. Therefore, it is people, not some legal fiction called a corporation, who bear the burden of the tax. Because corporations have these responses to the imposition of a tax, they are merely government tax collectors.

The largest burden of corporate taxes is borne by workers. We discover that by asking a simple question, such as: Which workers on a road construction project earn the higher pay, those employed moving dirt with shovels and wheelbarrows or those doing the same atop giant earthmovers? You'd guess the guys operating the earthmovers, but why? It's not because they're unionized or because construction contractors have a fondness for earthmover operators. It's because those workers have more capital (tools) to work with and are thereby more productive. Higher productivity translates into higher wages.

Tax policies that raise the cost of capital formation — such as capital gains taxes, low depreciation allowances and corporate taxes — reduce capital formation. As a result, workers have less capital, lower productivity and lower wage growth. In 1980, Joseph Stiglitz, now a Nobel laureate, said that workers share the highest corporate tax burden in the form of lower wages. A number of economic studies, including that of the Congressional Budget Office, show that workers bear anywhere from 45 to 75 percent of the corporate tax burden. Adding to the burden is the fact that capital has the kind of mobility that labor doesn't. Corporate capital can flee to other countries easily, but workers cannot.

The New American

It seems that the American workers who slave away for the big corporations are the biggest losers when it comes to paying for corporate taxes; they lose out in lower wages and jobs moved overseas by the big corporations trying to avoid paying those taxes.
edit on 11/9/11 by FortAnthem because:
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posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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Of course you're right, or rather, Walter Williams is right. (He's one of my heroes, by the way.)

What's important now is the response of the people to those facts. Will they say "Maybe a corporate tax isn't such a sound economic idea?" Or will they say "Because the worker is suffering the most, we have to pass laws raising their wages? Or, perhaps, "We won't let companies move jobs overseas? Or even, "We won't let some employees make more than X times some other employees?"

My guess is that ATSers will pick a path that requires more government laws and regulations. So those who are opposed to a one world government are those helping to create it.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


All business taxes are paid by customers and always have been. Those imposing the taxes know that. Lots of taxes are hidden that way. It also gives foreign goods and services an unfair advantage because the US hits business so hard. It's the government driving the jobs overseas and people like Obama. He / They want it that way.

That's one of the reasons this class warfare is so utterly stupid. The politicians know how naive some of the population is and they take advantage of that, just like Obama is now. The Left has always used peoples lack of knowledge against them to get their votes. Without the illiterate vote, nobody from the Progressives could ever get elected.

It also has a lot to do with why the Progressive agenda of Socialism always leads to a two class system. In Greece it got out of control and now the whole country is on welfare and can't even feed itself without handouts. The citizens are so used to all the handouts, they are like a bunch of children that don't know how to make it on their own and their kids don't have a clue where the money comes from or that they have no money anymore. Greece is self-destructing just like all such systems eventually do.

Lets hope we wise up and people stop destroying their own futures out of stupidity.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:11 PM
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So how do we justify corporations being able to control the political process with cash -- basically unlimited cash. And when the corporation sucks up domestic cash and sends it offshore. Who pays for that?



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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Good post. Star and Flag for you.

Anybody who has ever taken a business class knows this. All costs are borne by the consumer.
The entire corporate tax is just a smoke screen, to allow Congresscritters to solicit funds from corporations to curry political favor. I love how people complain about the oil companies, while GE pays nothing in taxes. Wait. My bad. GE donates to the Democratic Party in substitution for it's corporate taxes.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:15 PM
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Alright, So lets not tax the corporation itself
Lets tax the capitol it makes. There is a tonne of 'capitol' or al, that is not being taxed in the least. And i think since corporations are people in this day and age.. The world is silly.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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Does anyone know of when the "Government Workers" were not paid for their "Duty" to the people? If you look back in time, all government workers had side jobs to earn money (example; Farms) while they were doing their country a service. Most of the early Presidents were broke when they left the office. It seems to me that Taxes seem to only come about to problems to the lay person but more jobs for these people who want to create a problem that they do not personally want to take care of. My mind often wonders to the time where people actually earned what they made and not simply a "Hypothetical" wage of monies which in turn is worth less than the work done to earn such.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by AzureSky
Alright, So lets not tax the corporation itself
Lets tax the capitol it makes. There is a tonne of 'capitol' or al, that is not being taxed in the least. And i think since corporations are people in this day and age.. The world is silly.


That's being done already. Funny thing is that those costs too are passed along to the consumer. Our entire tax structure is a joke. What is needed is a National Sales Tax.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555

It also has a lot to do with why the Progressive agenda of Socialism always leads to a two class system. In Greece it got out of control and now the whole country is on welfare and can't even feed itself without handouts. The citizens are so used to all the handouts, they are like a bunch of children that don't know how to make it on their own and their kids don't have a clue where the money comes from or that they have no money anymore. Greece is self-destructing just like all such systems eventually do.

Not true. Greece is in trouble due to the lies it made about its economy when it joined the Euro. This meant the whole economy was out of balance from the start and unsustainable.

If you look at scandanavian countries these have high taxes and high welfare (astonishingly so). They are also some of the happiest and least corrupt nations on the planet.

well suprise suprise!

Come on socialism so we can all lead happy, productive, worry free lives.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by spyder550
 


They go where they can make the most profits.

Do you understand that a Corporation is not the executives, it's mostly ordinary peoples retirement savings. Yes there are some bad apples out there, but when you hurt the Corporation you don't hurt them, you destroy your Grandmothers retirement.

The things the banks did were legal and in fact the housing bubble was caused by Barney Franks work to force them to make the loans. The problem is in DC and the naive, illiterates are protesting in the wrong place.

Who did Obama surround himself with? He and they are laughing all the way to the bank while they use this fake class warfare to trick people. Obama's freinds are the bad guys. Hopefully people will wise up before they take it all.

This idea of blaming all business for the actions of a few is pure insanity and very, very stupid. Oh well, people are easily fooled by people like Obama and Franks. The people protesting against what they did will likely go right back and vote for them. They know how dumb the masses are.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by malcr

Originally posted by Blaine91555

It also has a lot to do with why the Progressive agenda of Socialism always leads to a two class system. In Greece it got out of control and now the whole country is on welfare and can't even feed itself without handouts. The citizens are so used to all the handouts, they are like a bunch of children that don't know how to make it on their own and their kids don't have a clue where the money comes from or that they have no money anymore. Greece is self-destructing just like all such systems eventually do.

Not true. Greece is in trouble due to the lies it made about its economy when it joined the Euro. This meant the whole economy was out of balance from the start and unsustainable.

If you look at scandanavian countries these have high taxes and high welfare (astonishingly so). They are also some of the happiest and least corrupt nations on the planet.

well suprise suprise!

Come on socialism so we can all lead happy, productive, worry free lives.


Come'on Son

Have you been to Greece before all this so called mess happened? It was in starting self destruct mode well before they joined the Euro. The main factor is that they thought that they could not go back into poverty because they thought they were the historical marker for world. The people there thought that and approached life as such. They were/are as arrogant then as they are now. Much like most of the people in their self respecting countries.



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by malcr
 


Your wrong. It's just that simple. Either that or you are a victim of propaganda. You really should do your homework unless of course you are a propagandist yourself.

Greece ran out of money, period end of subject. You simply cannot spend more than you take in year after year and give handouts to everyone and survive. The world should let them make it on their own and watch them starve.

Retirement at age 50, government controlled wages, no way for a business to be profitable is what wiped them out. No more cookies in the cookie jar and their children are rioting for cookies that don't exist. How stupid is that? They can't give what they don't have and the world will stop loaning them money.

I chuckle every time I see a "Socialist" with an iPhone in their hand. They mourned Jobs, one of the most ruthless, dishonest businessmen in the world who's company had more cash horded at his death than the US Government has.
Hypocrites
They demand jobs and then try to destroy the people who create the jobs
They want overpaid and then complain about the prices



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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This came on the news today over here:
www.abc.net.au...

Seems if you make a billion a year in profit from selling your country to the lowest bidder means you dont have to pay tax



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 02:57 PM
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What people don't understand is that, if corporations weren't taxed, the gubment would still get its pound of flesh anyway. If the corporate profits go to the CEOs or corporate officers; the gubment gets its share through income taxes (at the highest rates to
). If the profits go to the shareholders in the form of dividends; the gubment gets its share through dividend taxes. If the corporation uses its profits to pay its workers a living wage (yeah, I know its not likely but, it could happen
) those workers would also pay more in income taxes.

The CEOs, corporate officers, shareholders and employees would probably end up paying more in taxes than the corporation because they have less loopholes available to them to avoid the taxes. There is also the benifit that the profits paid to them would end up going into the local economy where the gubment can, again, get its share through sales taxes and such.


edit on 11/9/11 by FortAnthem because:



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by malcr
 


Your wrong. It's just that simple. Either that or you are a victim of propaganda. You really should do your homework unless of course you are a propagandist yourself.

Greece ran out of money, period end of subject. You simply cannot spend more than you take in year after year and give handouts to everyone and survive. The world should let them make it on their own and watch them starve.

Retirement at age 50, government controlled wages, no way for a business to be profitable is what wiped them out. No more cookies in the cookie jar and their children are rioting for cookies that don't exist. How stupid is that? They can't give what they don't have and the world will stop loaning them money.


edit on 9-11-2011 by Heresthebeef because: wanted to delete the last bit of the post.
edit on 9-11-2011 by Heresthebeef because: Sorry messed up



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by Heresthebeef
 


Really? Really? Here you go... The U.S. Government has been out of money since they day it has been established. And Yes for the 11 presidents before George Washington. Yet "We The People" have survived and continued to grow leaps and bounds continuously raking up debt. Have I starved to death? NO! Will the people of Greece starve to death? NO! The main factor you are fighting is that the people of Greece "Want" and do not "Want to Work For" what they have. Greece is like the "Paris Hilton's" or "Kim Kardashion's" of the world. Expecting they "Deserve" everything. People will survive with or without an economy, It is only the ones who will actually work who will succeed.

Do My Homework? Please!!!



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Heresthebeef
 


You are right the government never had any money. They get all the money by taking it from those who create the wealth. When the wealth stops being created the government goes broke. Then no more candy for the kiddies.

The government takes and creates nothing. It can take actions that destroy itself though.

Why people cannot see that the fringe Alisky Progressives plan is to destroy us and then build another Socialist State like the former USSR is beyond me. They are so obvious about it. I guess they want to stand in line all day for a loaf of bread and live two families to an apartment. The leaders want to be the elite class and their little lapdogs are so willing to accommodate them.

Just a few decades ago we were appalled by how the Soviets people had to constantly show identification papers to travel and how they were under the thumb of the Party, while their leaders lived in palaces and ate caviar. Obama see's himself in that palace, except on Martha's Vineyard where all his buddies live. They want to rule over us dumb masses and oddly many are truly dumb enough to fall for it. Lord knows they have been using the schools to indoctrinate our kids. Remember his first move to have the kids chanting his name and in Denver the lavish temple behind him? Obama is so transparent I worry at how dumbed down our youth has become.

Look at the protestors who are all protesting the wrong people in the wrong place. Most admit they are for Obama and no doubt will vote these wanna be Dictators into office again. Look how long Franks has gotten away with it and how he is one of the true cause of the housing bubble and they don't care.

edit on 11/9/2011 by Blaine91555 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2011 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


I hear you! I hope we are all good now? Now from where I stand we are on the same page! Good online debate with you.

Hope and Pray all goes well for you. It will (for you only) if you take three deep breaths and think "All is Good".

My Gift to You.



posted on Nov, 14 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Got it. The cost is passed on to others. But is this argument framed correctly?

Every time a corporation increases its profit margin for a few, the covering rallying cry is "we cannot survive with high taxes, so we are going to ___________". There may be enough of a kernel of truth in that to get most to bite.

I always found this amazing. A corporation does not exist in a vacuum. It cannot survive by itself, sans customers. Yet concern for jobs for those customers or their future purchasing potential is not supported by the these corporate profit-only driven actions. Sure, businesses exist to make a profit, but you cannot poison the well. Not smart.

That is just one facet. What about infrastructure and security corporations enjoy stateside? Are the jobless (the cause of all our financial ills) supposed to pay for that too?

I am not suggesting a hippy/nanny state but what were the profit margins of the those industries which took the US to a position of prominence in the early 20th century?






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