The mind creates what we call reality

Originally posted by tgidkp
I can never understand why physicists think they ought to have exclusive rights to the models of quantum mechanics.

I wouldn't say they have exclusive rights.

I would say few non-physicists even understand the observations or the models that attempt to explain them.

humans, and importantly, scientists, frequently apply known observable principles to non related systems. quite often this is an effective method of LEARNING.

The ultimate method of learning is making observations. We've made sufficient observations of baseballs and subatomic particles to conclude that subatomic particles can behave in ways that baseballs cannot. Besides, I did post a scientific paper which applied the subatomic principles to the baseball, and showed that you'd have to fire the baseballs through slits roughly a trillion trillion trillion times smaller than the baseball to observe a wave function collapse of the baseball. Yes neither you nor anyone else has been able to fire a baseball through such small slits. Heck, you can't even make slits that small to try it.

in the end, it will undoubtedly be shown that a moon is not an apple...but that is a lame argument against the gravitational force. ...my god! apples and moons are vastly different sizes too! whoulda thunk?!

The moon and the apple are collections of molecules and atoms in various structures.

Subatomic particles are not collections of molecules, and we have observed behavior of subatomic particles that we've never observed with baseballs, such as the observer effect wave function collapse.

If i see a boulder flying at me then look away, the rock is gone.

When it smashes into my face, it is there. But my face isnt. Hmm

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Your whole post proves my point. There's no scientific evidence that the baseball has an objective existence. Have you ever touched a baseball? No. Has anyone ever touched a baseball? No.

The baseball doesn't have an objective reality. The way it looks and feels is a construct of information. How does the baseball have mass? If you treat the baseball as an objective reality you will never find an answer. Information explains this easily.

There's ZERO evidence that an objective reality exists. Everything is a construct of information that emanates from the mind of the observer.

Where's the scientific evidence that shows the baseball or anything else has an objective reality outside the construct of quantum information?

Originally posted by yourmaker
no. not at all. reality is there, and our senses allow us to perceive it, why do we have to assume it's in our minds?
sure we can construct a dreamstate reality, but our waking lives, what we see here and now, is existing on a planet.
a real planet, with real animals, real oceans, real people and real thoughts. it's not in our heads.


although i dont agree with this video i'm sure the people who agree with this thread will love it.

While I (think I) catch your drift I feel there's an error in the reasoning:
Let me use my (crippled) understanding of "vision" to illustrate this:

when photons hit an object that object reflects them... those that hit our eyes (senses) are being translated into an electro-chemical chain of events (electricity running tru the nerves, chemistry coming in every time the signal has to cross a synaps) that eventually stimulates heaps of neurons in our brain. Some of them are needed to "understand" movement, others deal with color, still others do use memories to fill out the gestalt.
The end result is we thinking we see that object.

Actually there's no way (as far as this stupid person that I am understands) to "know" any difference between the object bouncing of photons and the "vision" of it that is created by the brain.

So I take it there are objects out there... let's call them planets if you wish. They are real, for sure. There's just no way for us to know if our "vision" actually is a 1 on 1 match?

Does this makes sense?

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

Originally posted by AstroBuzz
I know the Giant Sequoias exist and have grown for thousands of years... but I've never seen one in person.

I know a baby grows inside a pregnant woman even though I can't observe or measure it.

But you either read, saw a photo, saw on TV, or heard about them (all perceptions) and believed it.

So people born before print, pictures or TV didn't know they were going to have a baby before it was born?

I think you need to have a rethink there.

If the reality is just a construct of quantuminial data like 0 and 1 in computers and it is reasoned to us to be true it makes no significant impact on physical reality as it is observed. It is like trying to crawl out of your own brain which is not possible because we ARE nothing but brain encased in a protective skeletal shell. The result is that in dream illusions as we sleep can a temporary release is possible which is why dreams are often bizzare and weird because consciousness is receiving a different input signal. This makes sense to me but may seem outlandish to others.

a theory of mine is that we are all just reflections of our thoughts...and nothing really exists on this plain although you have senses like feeling touch smell etc... they are all illusions created by a master single program built into our brains..when you sleep your brain defragments, classifies, and absorbs the information the thoughts have created during that day so it may reflect your life for another day...who can prove we only use a small percentage of our brains maybe it uses 100% all the time with an undetectable energy that is creating our illusion of a reality...people under hypnosis can feel smell etc...things that are not really there and also you often hear of after life experiences that people have no hang ups about what happened to them in life maybe it is because on the other side you realize it was all an illusion...and for the people that ask why does the creator allow bad things to happen...well it is actually us allowing the bad things to happen and the creator knows that it is all illusion so they do not intervene knowing no real harm is actually happening and allow us to continue our free will and attempts to evolve our souls which run this virtual world from behind a veil of another reality...

Originally posted by Namaste1001
“Everything is energy and that’s all there is to it. Match the frequency of the reality you want and you cannot help but get that reality. It can be no other way. This is not philosophy. This is physics” - Albert Einstein

There's many toddlers in burn wards who would disagree with you if they could understands what you were saying. A toddler doesn't know that water can be boiling hot. A toddler doesn't know that the water could burn them. Yet they still get burned.

so if i'm not reading your post you don't exist. i'm not directly observing you, put i'm pretty sure you don't disappear into the 4th dimension.

and right now, no one is observing me, but i'm here. i'm sure that apply's to everyone and everything.

and if your criteria for what exists and what's real is by direct observation, then the entire universe will always exist because it is being observed by God.

so it doesn't matter if einstein is looking at the moon or not.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Where's the scientific evidence that shows the baseball or anything else has an objective reality outside the construct of quantum information?

How about this?

Teen Dies After Being Hit by Baseball

That seems like evidence of an objective reality to me.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


This is just evidence on how things occur in the construct of information. I understand the sophistry though because there isn't any scientific evidence that shows that there's an objective reality outside of the construct of quantum information.

The problem is people get caught up in the milieu of the macroscopic. There isn't any there there. Just a construct of quantum information.

Consider for a moment that both reality and the observer are in a state of superposition and neither is in control of creation.

Consider for a moment that there may be one, or there may be several other sources that are in control of everything in the universe, creating our reality, simply giving us the illusion of control.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


nevertheless, the model can be effectively applied to macro objects.

for example, if you consider that an electron-orbital cloud does not truly exist, but is merely a useful projection of the superposition of its possible linear states. this projection becomes useful in predicting the behavior of atoms in a reaction and allows us (humans) to make manipulate molecular structures as tools.

similarly, any tool that can be manipulated is a "quantum projection" or superposition. in order to use a hammer, a person must have an idea of the sum total possible states of the hammer. similar to the electron cloud, this idea does not really exist (only in the MIND) but is useful in understanding how a hammer interacts with objects in its environment.

a great many aspects of reality can be (legitimately) described in this way. linear mechanics will NEVER be sufficient to describe neither consciousness nor reality. just like linear mechanics can be applied at all relative levels in the hierarchy, so to can quantum mechanics. but the hard-headedness of physicists is getting us nowhere.


so, ultimately, a hammer doesn't exist without a MIND to percieve it as a type of quantum superposition. as the OP says.

reply to post by steveknows


If you also read my other posts you know I talk about perception. A woman normally perceives the changes in her body during pregnancy, but there are even today stories of women going into labor not knowing (or having perceived) they were pregnant.

As I have said in my posts -- individual perceptions of common reality.w oman didn't know she was pregnant

reply to post by Matrix Rising


I am not a scientist but if somebody wonders if the moon is there if he is not watching he should turn away from the moon or close his eyes and take a picture.

Just a thought...

reply to post by GmoS719



Is it the same tree? every mind interprets a different reality of what we are observing. So the tree you see, is not the same tree I am seeing. It exists by itself without observation, because it is its own entity. It is One tree. But if a million people look at that one tree, that tree now exists across a million different realities... Or, it is 1 tree, AND 1 million different trees at the same time?

Originally posted by NeverSleepingEyes

Originally posted by yourmaker
no. not at all. reality is there, and our senses allow us to perceive it, why do we have to assume it's in our minds?
sure we can construct a dreamstate reality, but our waking lives, what we see here and now, is existing on a planet.
a real planet, with real animals, real oceans, real people and real thoughts. it's not in our heads.


although i dont agree with this video i'm sure the people who agree with this thread will love it.

While I (think I) catch your drift I feel there's an error in the reasoning:
Let me use my (crippled) understanding of "vision" to illustrate this:

when photons hit an object that object reflects them... those that hit our eyes (senses) are being translated into an electro-chemical chain of events (electricity running tru the nerves, chemistry coming in every time the signal has to cross a synaps) that eventually stimulates heaps of neurons in our brain. Some of them are needed to "understand" movement, others deal with color, still others do use memories to fill out the gestalt.
The end result is we thinking we see that object.

Actually there's no way (as far as this stupid person that I am understands) to "know" any difference between the object bouncing of photons and the "vision" of it that is created by the brain.

So I take it there are objects out there... let's call them planets if you wish. They are real, for sure. There's just no way for us to know if our "vision" actually is a 1 on 1 match?

Does this makes sense?

yes abolustely makes sense,
when you break it down, we are essentially looking at the "same" energy at it's core, but with different properties.
the desk my computer sits on, is composed of the same energies as the keyboard i'm typing on.
what changes is their properties and my mind's ability to differentiate the properties of that energy,
(is it smooth or course etc.)

planets are real, but it's somewhat of an illusion. because of the planet's properties giving it a distinct energy output. it's all the "same", but our minds are just able to categorize the energy into different states of being.
which gives us the sensation of touching a keyboard, when really it's just a mass of energy giving the illusion of a keyboard.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by steveknows

 

If you also read my other posts you know I talk about perception. A woman normally perceives the changes in her body during pregnancy, but there are even today stories of women going into labor not knowing (or having perceived) they were pregnant.

As I have said in my posts -- individual perceptions of common reality. woman didn't know she was pregnant

edit on 11/9/2011 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

That's because sometimes the females body doesn't stop doing what the female body usually stops doing, or fails to give off the signals of change that it usually gives off when there's a baby on the way and that kind of thing is so rare it couldn't be put into the realm of perception. And when you see this kind of thing on the news they're either very young and though they knew things were changing they had no idea why and didn't say anything to anyone and the baby is born premature. Or they're very over weight and the usual changes weren't noticed. Also I think it's fair to take into account with the young ones that just because they said they didn't know it doesn't mean they didn't know. It could just mean that they didn't know what to tell mum and dad and then oop suprise can I keep it now?

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by steveknows

 

If you also read my other posts you know I talk about perception. A woman normally perceives the changes in her body during pregnancy, but there are even today stories of women going into labor not knowing (or having perceived) they were pregnant.

As I have said in my posts -- individual perceptions of common reality.w oman didn't know she was pregnant

edit on 11/9/2011 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

it also raises the question regarding people who have been shot/stabbed, but did not know it until they either saw blood, or felt the warmth of the blood. After their brain registered it from either visual of physical sensation, did it become aware and trigger the pain sensation. Makes you think..

This is linked to a conversation I once had with a physics buff friend of mine who was talking about dimensions, and how at the time of the conversation, one of the lines of thought going around was that there are eleven dimensions. I argued thusly:

Look in a direction. Any direction. Imagine that you are a particle. You can travel in any direction, and in any one direction you travel in,you will come into contact with other particles. Eventually you will encounter a particle that you react with. When , how, and where you react, and what the result will be, depends on which direction you travelled in.

So , assuming that all actions have equal and opposite reactions, and assuming that chaos theories assertion that a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can cause a tornado on the other, surely ANY possible interaction between one particle and another, creates a new series of hypothetical possible futures, new dimensions if you will.

Therefore the choices we make, wether regular and regimented, or random and chaotic can create new possibilities, and surely these could be considered new dimensions.

The idea is , that for every direction in which you can look,in every way in which you can travel, there is a possible future, a possible reality.

However, do I believe that reality existed before observation, or at least observation by mankind, but that is because I believe that everything from the highest functioning genius, to the smallest particle in existance, is on some level aware of its location and purpose within the great machine of the universe. Even quarks may have a destiny.