The Tide is Turning

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posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Meh, I see it as one side attempting to paint the entire other side with a single brush. As I stated before, by your logic all American soldiers in Iraq killed humans for sport and throw puppies off cliffs


You just can't do it can you?

You can't look at their activities objectively?
Posting the REAL world issues with the movement or Posting the outcome of some of their activities is not "one side" painting the entire "other side" with one broad brush.

That's what you would like people to think and believe. The fact remains that those {Not so supported OWS} activities have and will happen. Good, Bad or Detrimental to the movement they should be posted and discussed.
edit on 8-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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I will fight for the right thing, and did, with the Tea Party. Since you want respect for OWS, can we have some respect for the Tea Party too? Otherwise, it's just the same stuff, with the left demanding respect from the right for stuff we don't believe is good for our country, or anywhere for that matter.
I cannot stand for worldwide Socialism and varying patterns of it. No matter how much they try to dress it up with different names, Direct democracy, participatory democracy, and so on like that, it will still just be another version of Socialist collectivism. This movement just has a lot of elements of revolutionary anarchism. Just like Pelosi said we'd have to pass the bill to know what's in it. OWS wants us to trust that they know what's best for the 99 % under their socialist model.


Our US Constitution has denied "We The People" the right to directly amend our constitution and to directly pass laws on issues of our choosing by a direct majority vote.


Therefore, We the People do hereby insist upon using our national citizens’ ballot initiative process for real and direct participatory democracy based on our God-given "first principles"...


occupywallst.org...

quote taken directly from the occupywallst web page

So they are saying that our Consitution has denied the people's right to amend it, then they invoke the names of our Founding Fathers right after that. Either the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing or they didn't. Don't try to convince us that the Constitution denies you something and at the same time invoke the Founding Fathers in the same sentence as direct democracy or participatory democracy. The Founding Fathers set it up as a Republic.
So where is OWS getting all these ideas? They did not come up with it spontaneously after a month of protest. This has been in the making. The organizers and leaders just made sure not to introduce it too fast or it would look too astro turfy, which it is. Probably the leaders discussed it with people who showed up to the protest, and got a bunch of people on board, or they are just telling people this is the answer. Or, many of them knew ahead of time this was the deal, as with the communist party showing up. It's no accident.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 





You can't look at their activities and be objective?


i'm pretty sure I just did, I just refuse to view the actions of a few to represent the whole. Apparently you disagree, whatever. I stand by my statements, those committing crimes should be punished, but you can't blame the entire crowd for the actions of some involved. you can't and it's dishonest of you to attempt to say I am.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





Since you want respect for OWS, can we have some respect for the Tea Party too?


another thread replying no reader. Not asking for support or respect for the OWS cause. Asking if you at least respect these people who are willing to try to do something.

Though I didn't support most of what the Tea Party was saying, I sure do respect them for willing to try.

Why is that so hard to grasp? I guess it's because some people have an agenda, and as such, refuse to believe others might not.

Oh well, this fail belongs to me 1005, I sadly thought a simple question could spark a discussion, it can't, you refuse to drop the partisan nonsense. you refuse to forget what you think you know about these people and simply see it for what it is.

Keep harping on it, i'm sure you'll convince someone somewhere


Oh and for the record, I'm not going to let you play this game:


A Proposal from Captain Dougars Concerning Direct Democracy and the National Citizens' Initiative


Source

A proposal by a single individual on a forum it is. A manifesto of the "movement" it is not.

Can we get back on topic now please?

edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by SLAYER69
 





I haven't read ANYWHERE posts by those who are rightly or wrongly accused of being "Anti OWS" say not to protest.


you must be new to ATS. I'd link and quote threads but I'd probably break the server as there are too many examples. Anyways, again, this isn't about OWS, it's about protesting in todays world in general.



Slayer is right. All over the threads people have said they have a right to protest. The Occupy thing however is beginning to get out of hand and becoming a health and safety threat to the community. I would think that such collectivists would care more about the people in the surrounding areas who have had to unwillingly host these protesters. The protesters obviously care more for their agenda which is fundamentally transforming our society, and amending the Constitution with all their referendums, general assemblies, and participatory democracy, with a tinge of violence (ie throwing bottles at the police, and no wonder they won't call the cops in when there are rapes and deaths).



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





Since you want respect for OWS, can we have some respect for the Tea Party too?


another thread replying no reader. Not asking for support or respect for the OWS cause. Asking if you at least respect these people who are willing to try to do something.

Though I didn't support most of what the Tea Party was saying, I sure do respect them for willing to try.

Why is that so hard to grasp? I guess it's because some people have an agenda, and as such, refuse to believe others might not.

Oh well, this fail belongs to me 1005, I sadly thought a simple question could spark a discussion, it can't, you refuse to drop the partisan nonsense. you refuse to forget what you think you know about these people and simply see it for what it is.

Keep harping on it, i'm sure you'll convince someone somewhere
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



All you have to do is read my statements on why I cannot support OWS. I have made it very clear. Just because you want people to support the movement and make pleas for everyone being nice, is not going to change it one bit. Think the snake in the garden telling Eve, "you shall not surely die".
And yes, these thread topics come up in Google, so who knows who I might convince that OWS is really a threat to the US Constitution and our Republic.
edit on 8-11-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





The Occupy thing however is beginning to get out of hand and becoming a health and safety threat to the community.


Can't help but agree with you there, it is becoming dangerous, and once more of these people start realizing this isn't going to work, it will get ugly.

anyways, enough about OWS specifically.


how do you feel about people in 2011
taking to the streets to fight for
whatever they think they believe in?
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





The Occupy thing however is beginning to get out of hand and becoming a health and safety threat to the community.


Can't help but agree with you there, it is becoming dangerous, and once more of these people start realizing this isn't going to work, it will get ugly.

anyways, enough about OWS specifically.


how do you feel about people in 2011
taking to the streets to fight for
whatever they think they believe in?
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



Well, I was in the Tea Party protests. I still have my signs.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





All you have to do is read my statements on why I cannot support OWS. I have made it very clear. Just because you want people to support the movement and make pleas for everyone being nice, is not going to change it one bit. Think the snake in the garden telling Eve, "you shall not surely die".


This is the last time I say this. Where exactly in this thread have I asked you to support OWS, or any of their goals?

I asked how you feel about people still willing to take to the streets in this day and age. simple as that. You refuse to answer. fine, if you can't answer that simple question, leave.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT SUPPORTING OWS.

I get it though, you guys are merely trying to get me so worked up I'll post something against the T&C.

not going to happen. This is the LAST warning, stay on topic, or I'm going to ALERT each and every post that doesn't reference that simple question.

GET OVER YOURSELF




Well, I was in the Tea Party protests. I still have my signs.


And we almost have an answer. Seeing as you took part in protests or rallies yourself, I can only assume you'd respect others willing to do the same for a cause, even if you don't believe in that cause.

edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by beezzer
 






Okay. Using your argument, why should I support OWS?


Seriously, when did I ask you to support them? You can't be that thick, you are just derailing the thread right? You can't possibly be so thick headed that this far in, you still think i'm trying to get you to support OWS.

Go read the opening post one more time, slowly, clearly.



edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)


I did.
I even sounded out the big words.

Sounds like a cry of support to me.
*rah*
*go OWS*
Protest, er something



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 





They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in? Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?





Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?


Yeah I stand corrected, you obviously have cracked my secret code and found the hidden message.

I'd call you a troll, but that's an insult to actual trolls.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


You can't look at their activities and be objective?


i'm pretty sure I just did, I just refuse to view the actions of a few to represent the whole.


I'm not saying they "Represent the whole" But what I am saying is that I'm not seeing a realistic Condemnation by what appears to be starry eyed overzealous supporters.



Apparently you disagree, whatever.





1 I stand by my statements, those committing crimes should be punished, but you can't blame the entire crowd for the actions of some involved. you can't and it's dishonest of you to attempt to say I am.


I NEVER said they represent the whole. However you want to

A. Assume I do because it fits neatly into your obvious agenda

and

B. It makes OWS seem like the victim
edit on 8-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 
*yawn*
So you want respect for the protesters?

Ummmmm, nope.

I have more respect for the twenty-something working 3 jobs to take care of his and his family.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 





I'm not saying they "Represent the whole" But what I am saying is that I'm not seeing a realistic Condemnation by what appears to be starry eyed overzealous supporters.


That I can agree with you on. Yes I have seen videos of them trying to keep it from happening, but no, I do not feel they are speaking out against it enough, they aren't condemning the actions enough, and they aren't doing enough to mitigate any chances of these incidents happening.

but again, individual responsibility.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 





So you want respect for the protesters?


no, I wanted to see if OTHERS respected people willing to do something. you do not, good for you, I suggest you form an anti-ows group and stage counter protests. I would respect you a lot more then than I do right now.

but see, several posts in and FINALLY you answered, kinda, the question. so you don't respect people exercising their right to protest. Thanks for clearing it up.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 


Excellent reply.................you deserve a thousand stars because you see the big picture.



And again, I was at OWS in Chicago and everyone we met was really nice (and cleaned up after themselves). Even the police seemed nice, edgy but nice.......nicer than when I demonstrated against the Viet Nam War decades back in Washington.....that was scary.

Than again, thinking on it, here we were unarmed with our little signs and looking at the police with their clubs and big guns was scary.

edit on 8-11-2011 by ofhumandescent because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 





A. Assume I do because it fits neatly into your obvious agenda


What agenda is that? Trying to see where people stand? The only people with an agenda are you, beezer and your fan club continually harping on OWS when this thread isn't about them directly.

you just can't let it go can you?

So what's my agenda exactly? Is it where I said I'm not asking you to support, or if you support, OWS? Was it when I said i merely wanted to see what the general feeling is about protesting in our apathetic world today? Is it maybe how I continually tried to keep this thread non partisan and on topic?

Agenda my ass.




you deserve a thousand stars because you see the big picture.


no, I deserve a full on site IP ban for wasting this much time talking to people here solely to derail a thread.
edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 
I acknowledge their right to protest.

Doesn't mean I have to respect it.



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 


Your entire post is pro-OWS and you want us to not give you negative feedback




Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second. Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.


You want us to suspend our awareness of what we already know about the protests from what we have gotten through media reports of them, through attending their protests, or from what they themselves say in their websites or on their chats and livestreams.

I know exactly what they are doing now and how they are trying to do it.

Here is some commentary which I find useful in understanding the methodology of OWS

But there is some ideological coherence within OWS. Its collectivist people’s councils seem to have two main inspirations: socialism (often Marxist socialism) and anarchism. The two are sometimes in tension. They share, however, a belief that the capitalist system is a form of “institutionalized violence,” and that normal, democratic political methods, dominated by monied interests, are inadequate. Direct action is necessary to provoke the crisis that ignites the struggle that achieves the revolution.


And we are beginning to see what direct action means. Occupy DC protesters recently assaulted a conservative gathering, then took over a public intersection to prevent the passage of luxury cars. Blocking the path of one driver and his 2-year-old son, an activist shouted, “Sorry, but you have no power right now.” That is the opposite of participatory democracy — the use of power to intimidate a fellow citizen on a public street. It is the method of British soccer thugs.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Here is commentary from another site, I think a more pro-OWS site even just to show a faith in unbiased opinion.

And what is the message of the "General Assembly", the governing body of the original financial-district occupation? According its website:
"New York City General Assemblies are an open, participatory and horizontally organized process through which we are building the capacity to constitute ourselves in public as autonomous collective forces within and against the constant crises of our times."


Mr Graeber applied what he learned in his ethnographic work in some of the left-wing anti-globalisation protests of the 1990s, and has now brought his experience to bear on Wall Street, laying the groundwork for OWS's experiment in participatory democracy. As Mr Berrett reports:
"Soon after the magazine Adbusters published an appeal to set up a "peaceful barricade" on Wall Street, Mr. Graeber spent six weeks in New York helping to plan the demonstrations before an initial march by protesters on September 17, which culminated in the occupation."
Spontaneous order can take a bit of planning. But it seems Mr Graeber's planning has born fruit:


anarchistnews.org...



posted on Nov, 8 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 




Excellent reply.................you deserve a thousand stars because you see the big picture.





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