The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
I support you right 100%. But again, this isn't about this particular movement (ows) it's about peoples willingness to actually protest in general.

I haven't read ANYWHERE posts by those who are rightly or wrongly accused of being "Anti OWS" say not to protest. But since this is generally about OWS many of us feel they are barking up the wrong tree. Take it to Washington DC. Go after the FED, Government Bureaucracy and those Corporate Lackeys who have created the situation in the first place.

I have and will defend their right to protest. For me that's not the issue. The issue is that I wont blindly ignore some of their actions, lack of direction and damn sure wont support the often overlooked or justified Socialist/Communist slant. [Like so many here do]

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

I wanted to see if, as I suspect, people from all sides of this can at least respect the fact that some people are willing to walk the walk instead of merely talking the talk. I guess some of you just can't get past OWS at all. It's sad really.

Sure they have a right to protest. Nobody has questioned their right to protest. All the arguments arise from their objectives and tactics. I have no respect for the majority of OWS because they do not police their own. They allow people in their ranks to break the law and incite violence. They don’t have the same moral compass people I associate with have, so I don’t respect the majority of them. But I support their right to protest….peacefully.

Seriously, I’ve heard the OWS crowd so many times say that the important thing is that they are “doing something” about the problems. Merely “doing something” is not going to solve problems. You have to do the correct things to solve problems, not just anything. If you follow your reasoning then you can throw anything on a fire to put it out, right? Water? Gasoline? Jet fuel? Explosives? As long as you throw SOMETHING on it you will put out the fire, right?

All OWS has succeeded in doing is raise awareness about some of the issues we face. If that was the objective…they succeeded!! Congratulations!! The protests worked!! Now go home!!

However, if they expect to get something else accomplished then I must ask….What is it and how is holding a sign going to get it done??? We have a system of government in this country. There is a way to go about making changes. It’s worked for 200+ years. If it doesn’t go your way then talk to people, organize, protest if needed, raise awareness, and get people on your side and VOTE.

reply to post by ModernAcademia

As long as protests are non-violent I find them to be interesting

Yeah but we all know to well that they won't remain peaceful. some people involved are out to break windows and burn things. some people not involved are out to do the same thing.

I guess I'm just surprised that with the generation of apathetic lazy people we are (supposedly) that people are indeed willing to get off their butts and try something, anything. that's what amazes me, and that's what I was hoping to discuss.

for me, I'm not sure what it would take to have me marching in the streets. I've taken part in anti-frakking (shale gas) protests but that's nothing compared to police barricades and tear gas. and no, I don't support the people calling themselves "activists" who damage frakking equipment, not only is that childish, it's dangerous. Those guys are just doing their job, and by damaging their equipment you put their lives at risk.

reply to post by seabag

If you follow your reasoning then you can throw anything on a fire to put it out, right? Water? Gasoline? Jet fuel? Explosives? As long as you throw SOMETHING on it you will put out the fire, right?

Ahh, no. If you follow my logic we'd pour water on the fire instead of sitting around bickering about how the fire is too hot and large to deal with. follow me now?

I don't support the law breakers, and I've seen plenty of videos with OWSers desperately trying to keep people calm and stem the violence.

but by your logic, all military persons who served in Iraq and Afghanistan are puppy killing, civilian murdering for sport, sickos. Obviously this isn't the case.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
So keeping in tune with the intent of the thread, what would it take for you to go start that movement yourself?

I would decide whether to start protesting first or finding protesters and educating them first
Or we all brainstorm and educate each other
I probably would want the latter

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
would you be willing to?

Of course
I have a job though, so I would do with responsibly and maybe take some days off as well for the movement

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
would you wait until it's gained steam on it's own? What would it take for you to exercise that right to protest?

See I already tried doing this, but couldn't gather enough people
I don't think I would wait until a movement gains steam because my views may completely differ from theirs

What would it take for me to exercise my right to protest?
Support, people that's all

But smart educated, even self-educated, individuals
People who believe in personal responsibility and accountability

reply to post by SLAYER69

I haven't read ANYWHERE posts by those who are rightly or wrongly accused of being "Anti OWS" say not to protest.

you must be new to ATS. I'd link and quote threads but I'd probably break the server as there are too many examples. Anyways, again, this isn't about OWS, it's about protesting in todays world in general.

reply to post by seabag

It’s worked for 200+ years. If it doesn’t go your way then talk to people, organize, protest if needed, raise awareness, and get people on your side and VOTE.

What, are you expecting these people to abstain? you can't fix the system without enough support. By getting the attention they have, they have raised awareness about the issues. The FED, corporate Fraud, unjust wars for profit.

I agree, it's time to follow through, just sitting and being see worked for raising awareness, now it's time to take action. This we can agree on completely.

But then we'd be discussing OWS, not protesting in general.

sigh.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters
Funny you should mention that.
Right now, people in Missouri are taking a stand as well. But it is for personhood of the unborn. I hope they can have your support as well.

See, this is the problem with OWS. You're either with us or against us-type of mentality. This constant cry for support.

You talk of believng in something and risking rubber bullets.

I belong to a small fraternity who believes in something and we face real bullets.

I dunno. It still appears t me that this is so one-sided.
Tea Party.
Military.
Conservative.

Where were you, supporting me (or any of us, for that matter) when we spoke?

reply to post by phishyblankwaters




It's all a matter of perspective.
Being critical of the movement doesn't necessarily mean they are ANTI-OWS.

reply to post by ModernAcademia

What would it take for me to exercise my right to protest? Support, people that's all But smart educated, even self-educated, individuals People who believe in personal responsibility and accountability

Most intelligent, and on topic post, so far in this thread. Hopefully enough educated people had their awareness of some of the issues raised to the point that they might take action.

and by action I mean voting the people out. Tossing the politicians out on their butts, killing the lobbyist industry entirely.

But to get to that point you need support, and to get support, you need to be heard. The media is owned. The internet is censored. How else do you voice your opposition?

Mass protests.

At least we can all agree on one thing, it's time to put up or shut up. The protesters got their 15 minutes, they've informed us what they perceive to be wrong. Now we can start working together towards viable solutions.

Anyways, to shed light on my opinion on the matter:

I drive by a local woman's clinic each day on my way to work. Each and every day there are two old women, sometimes with others sometimes alone, outside on the side walk with their protest signs as they are anti-abortion, and the clinic offers abortions and counseling.

i'm a pro choice guy. I'm not into abortion, but I'm also not into deciding what others can and can't do with their body when it has no impact on me at all.

BUT I can't help but respect those ladies willingness to sit in the rain, snow, cold, heat, day in, day out, fighting for what they believe to be right.

I feel the same respect for those PEACEFUL protesters around the world right now, I can't help but respect them for trying something.

reply to post by beezzer

Where were you, supporting me (or any of us, for that matter) when we spoke?

Why do you need my support? This isn't about support. And yes, even though I disagree with you on those points, I fully respect your willingness to go protest for what you believe in.

See, I don't have to support your cause to respect your willingness to fight for it, or your right to do that.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Being critical of the movement doesn't necessarily mean they are ANTI-OWS.

As being sympathetic to some of the causes of the protests doesn't equate supporting the criminal activity taking place at some of these "events".

Perception is reality.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Yeah but we all know to well that they won't remain peaceful. some people involved are out to break windows and burn things. some people not involved are out to do the same thing.

That's why you need a manifesto
Where it should state "do not join us if you wish to cause havoc or protest with a violent nature"

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
I guess I'm just surprised that with the generation of apathetic lazy people we are (supposedly) that people are indeed willing to get off their butts and try something, anything. that's what amazes me, and that's what I was hoping to discuss.

It's the anything I have an issue with.. as you know
You and me both know there's definately people there only because they want to be part of something or have nothing better to do
Having a manifesto would disallow them to dilute the message

I understand you dislike the lazyness of some people, even I am amazed at it
Protesting with a well-planned organization and a well detailed manifesto is the only way to go though
Simply protesting for whatever reason is not protesting to me

But you know what's better than the OWS movement?
The Ron Paul movement

They are getting off their arses, they are vocal, they gather in large numbers
And also.... they can engage in a debate and their demands are clear, limited govt., non-interventionism and liberty

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

Ahh, no. If you follow my logic we'd pour water on the fire instead of sitting around bickering about how the fire is too hot and large to deal with. follow me now?

Replacing corporatism with socialism and more entitlements (which OWS supports) is throwing gasoline on a fire. That will not solve the problems we face, therefore I cannot support it. Follow me?

As I’ve pointed out so many times……plus one more time here……there were 1.5 million people (Tea Party) protesting in DC on 9/12/2009. There were no reports of violence. No rapes. No robberies. No beatings. What does that say about OWS? They’ve never had anywhere close to 1.5 million people at any one place, yet there are dozens of reports of crime. Justify that….

reply to post by ModernAcademia

But you know what's better than the OWS movement? The Ron Paul movement

couldn't agree more. And that's why Ron Paul has the least amount of media coverage of all the candidates, and that's why Paul is basically dropped from polls and ignored and side lined. He set the record for most donations did he not?

So, what will the Ron Paul'ers do when he isn't elected?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by beezzer

 

Where were you, supporting me (or any of us, for that matter) when we spoke?

Why do you need my support? This isn't about support. And yes, even though I disagree with you on those points, I fully respect your willingness to go protest for what you believe in.

See, I don't have to support your cause to respect your willingness to fight for it, or your right to do that.

edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)

Okay. Using your argument, why should I support OWS?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
As being sympathetic to some of the causes of the protests doesn't equate supporting the criminal activity taking place at some of these "events".

Perception is reality.

Speaking of reality...

Yet, I haven't seen many ATS OWS supporters demonstrate the lack of support when the obvious criminal activities are posted. No, I see the opposite. Many will demonstrate a fanatical Near Super Human effort to either justify such actions/activities or try to play them down as the actions of a few bad apples. Absolving themselves as "As long as the message is heard"

reply to post by seabag

Replacing corporatism with socialism and more entitlements (which OWS supports) is throwing gasoline on a fire. That will not solve the problems we face, therefore I cannot support it. Follow me? As I’ve pointed out so many times……plus one more time here……there were 1.5 million people (Tea Party) protesting in DC on 9/12/2009. There were no reports of violence. No rapes. No robberies. No beatings. What does that say about OWS? They’ve never had anywhere close to 1.5 million people at any one place, yet there are dozens of reports of crime. Justify that….

You just can't let go of it can you? You just can't objectively look at the topic instead of concentrating on OWS and what you think they support.

Why do you need me to justify anything? Why can't you answer the question, wait, you already did, but you couldn't leave it like that, nope, gotta play that "i hate ows" harp a few more times right?

Get the hell over it. I'm not talking about ows directly, I'm not asking you to support them or if you support them or if you think they will change things, or if you think they are socialist criminals.

I quite simply asked if you could at least respect people and their willingness to try.

Obviously you don't, we get it.

reply to post by beezzer

Okay. Using your argument, why should I support OWS?

Seriously, when did I ask you to support them? You can't be that thick, you are just derailing the thread right? You can't possibly be so thick headed that this far in, you still think i'm trying to get you to support OWS.

Go read the opening post one more time, slowly, clearly.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Meanwhile back at the Ranch Wall Street trading is still chugging along.

Is it? Because I happen to know that many "ows" members are part of the national bank transfer day, and guess what? It's CRIPPLING Bank of America.

Yes, some misguided fools are wasting their time, but thanks to the public awareness, intelligent educated people capable of creating solutions, are starting to get involved.

Personally, i would have started this on the door steps of the Federal Reserve. but that's just me.

Many will demonstrate a fanatical Near Super Human effort to either justify such actions/activities or try to play them down as the actions of a few bad apples.

Meh, I see it as one side attempting to paint the entire other side with a single brush. As I stated before, by your logic all American soldiers in Iraq killed humans for sport and throw puppies off cliffs.

for the record, I don't support that from either side. Individual responsibility. Protester A throws a rock at the cops. That has nothing to do with protesters B through Z. That said, I do feel it is the responsibility of protesters B through Z to ensure that doesn't happen, and if it does, that those people are contained and arrested/ If I were involved, the trouble makers would be rounded up and handed over to the police.

I also like the idea of some type of manifesto stipulating no lawlessness, no violence, and such. but how exactly can you enforce that? Maybe the veterans involved could "police" the protesters?

no ones right to protest trumps anyone's right to safety.