The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by SJE98
After watching 60 Minutes last night on CBS ,Jack Abramoff gave me some serious pause. Jack said he had 100 congressional offices of both parties bought when he was a lobbyist. I thought to myself This is why there are people in the streets now protesting.

Yep, bought and paid for is correct.

It is this one aspect that has destroyed this country.

This is why I will always support the OWS no matter what anyone here posts, because while there may be some things I disagree with, the corruption and bought and paid for politicians, and the banksters becoming politicians etc it something that needs to be stopped at all costs

Originally posted by jacobe001

Originally posted by SJE98
After watching 60 Minutes last night on CBS ,Jack Abramoff gave me some serious pause. Jack said he had 100 congressional offices of both parties bought when he was a lobbyist. I thought to myself This is why there are people in the streets now protesting.

Yep, bought and paid for is correct.

It is this one aspect that has destroyed this country.

This is why I will always support the OWS no matter what anyone here posts, because while there may be some things I disagree with, the corruption and bought and paid for politicians, and the banksters becoming politicians etc it something that needs to be stopped at all costs

Good for you. Now tell those in the OWS to stop destroying property belonging to others. If they don't like the police, they can't ask the police to defend them in the event someone is damaging their property.

If I were to see your car, and decided you should not have it because it makes you bourgeoisie, and throw rocks through your windshield, do I have the right to do it because you are in a percent higher than me? You have money to get a car, you capitalist. I don't think it is fair you should have a car. F%^& the police and you, so you capitalist deserve me throwing this brick through your windshield.

Is that the rhetoric you find acceptable? Do you support my rhetoric?

What if you are standing out there and I run up on you and steal your wallet. Would you call the police? You are capitalist if you do and f%^# the capitalist police and you, you don't deserve the money you have because you are a percent higher than me.

Is that rhetoric acceptable? Do you support my rhetoric?

You may have justifiable reasons for believing you have a righteous cause, but if your righteous cause approves of destruction of property, then it is no longer righteous. My wording was harsh, but clearly would not be something I would do or endorse anyone else doing.

It is disingenuous to disrespect the police and then expect the police to work in your favor.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Lately, I think the movement will cause no good, but maybe lead to people thinking radically different about how to approach the problems at hand.

How can "lead to people thinking radically different about how to approach the problems at hand" be no good?

I personally think that its very good that people are waking up and stand for what they believe is right. Even if things don't change like they want, at least they would have tried and for sure made some difference. Even the smallest change can be positive, whatever it is.

Peace out.

reply to post by WarminIndy


So, if i follow your way of thinking, every war and every revolution your country had triggered isn't "righteous" because they destroyed property of others. Don't tell me it's different because it was in another country or that they brought this upon themselves...

Sometimes some eggs need to be broken to make it a good omlette.

By the way, you completely missed the point of this tread.

To OP, sorry for this off-topic post but i needed to say it. Please flag my post as off-topic at your will.

Peace out.

The world population is at 7 billion. A small cabal of elites wants to hang onto power and control in the face of that burgeoning mass of people and they will do anything to maintain the status quo,at the expense of the rest of us.many of us may not know it, but we are in a struggle for ours and our children's existence. If they win we will have a global tyranny. If we win we have the chance at least to shape a sane future.

Originally posted by bigwig22
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So, if i follow your way of thinking, every war and every revolution your country had triggered isn't "righteous" because they destroyed property of others. Don't tell me it's different because it was in another country or that they brought this upon themselves...

Sometimes some eggs need to be broken to make it a good omlette.

By the way, you completely missed the point of this tread.

To OP, sorry for this off-topic post but i needed to say it. Please flag my post as off-topic at your will.

Peace out.

edit on 9-11-2011 by bigwig22 because: (no reason given)

I do not believe in violence in protests, no matter who is protesting. But it is dishonest to preach rhetoric against the police and the wealthy and then destroy your neighbor's property and then demand your property be left alone and expect the police to protect and defend you against someone else.

The tide is turning, but not really much. And pretty soon, these people will get bored and move on because they don't really believe truly in what they are doing. They are just following a popular trend and throwing temper tantrums because they think it is cool.

Watch this movie and then you will see the difference www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

There we go, we can work with this. Yes it does make me happy to see that some people are willing to do the leg work (not sure if work is the right term). I respect their willingness to try, even if they fail, they at least tried.

I agree, I don't see any real tangible changes coming out of this, and I fully expect it to turn violent as winter draws near. But this can't belittle the honest, peaceful people, fighting for a cause they believe in.

What if that cause was "death to all Jews?"

Could we admire someone for having the "strength to stand up and fight for what they believe in" if that were their cause?

See. The cause actually matters and, IMO, cannot be divorced from the protest itself.

Harte

reply to post by SLAYER69


"We need solutions, not rhetoric."

You do realize you're using rhetoric there, right? In fact, almost every "argument" against OWS is just that.

How do you feel about the current state of economic affairs in the world? Should they be maintained or altered?
If altered, where would you start?
If that saw resistance, which it most certainly would, how would you address that?
Since reform requires political capital, and that's all bought up by money interests, what would you do differently?

That's a rudimentary framework for an actual discussion starter on the anti-OWS side. Obviously, more creative and eloquent people will have much more in terms of options. However, simply saying the equivalent of "I think OWS is a bunch of losers" serves nothing. I could point you back to "we need solutions, not rhetoric" at this point, but in the interest of accuracy I'll simply ask the question: What beliefs do you currently hold that makes the impetus for their actions incorrect, and what do you think should be done differently?

Voting libertarian, or moving your money.....while fantastic first steps, are not enough to bring about any change by themselves. Activism of some sort is necessary. Argue that. Some people on here have done so very well. Honest discussion brings change. Your brand of it offers nothing, except 57 more stars, apparently.

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Listen, I understand what you are trying to do, but you can't expect people to discuss the honorable stance of OWS when most people protesting can't even give a straight answer to what they are protesting for. Because in reality, it is not that hard to decide, "hey lets go hang out with our buddies and protest today." I get it. They are "at least doing something" but that "something" doesn't take any drive or intelligence to do. If we could get down to the brass tactics of what everyone is fighting for, then maybe we can take a step in the right direction. Everybody has a different idea of what they expect from all this so how can you expect a direct outcome? This movement not only needs a leader, it needs a focal point. Because if things keep going the way they are going, all we are going to get is a lot more people hurt and a lot more people in jail.

I realize our situation is messed up, but a better plan needs to come in to play so some real outcomes can be established.

How about offering some of your expertise to the movement so you can be proactive instead of criticizing without any solution. One thing I learned in the Military was that "If you are going to lodge a complaint it should be accompanied by a solution". Become a voice of reason in a sea of uncertainty.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

*yawn*
So you want respect for the protesters?

Ummmmm, nope.

I have more respect for the twenty-something working 3 jobs to take care of his and his family.

You respect a person working 3 jobs to support his family is tantamount to congratulating someone for being a compliant slave. Someone that is working three jobs is only supporting the corporate elite. Why do we live in a world where working more than one job is necessary? I think that many involved in the movement are asking this same question.

Originally posted by bumpufirst
reply to post by macman

 

just like in any trade or proffesion,when things go wrong,go back to the basics and start over again.simple,if what they are asking is for a surrender of curruption peacefully,i think its dillusion.and the presure inflicted so far hasnt even began to touch the surface of such curruption. i am against curruption,that much we agree on.i do praise them for the accion which is better then no accion at all.

edit on 8-11-2011 by bumpufirst because: (no reason given)

Action without meaning, direction or leadership is worse then no action.
Chicken with it's head cut off.
And the fact that 99% of OWS is of the "Socialist/Progressive" mindset, that compounds the issue.
So, we basically have a Angry Chicken with it's head cut off, being stampeded by the Progressives, Socialists, Communists and Current Admin.

Again, no thanks.

reply to post by Witness2008

Why do we live in a world where working more than one job is necessary? I think that many involved in the movement are asking this same question.

We don't live in such a world. We live in a world where people make really silly career choices or fail to develop their skills.

Those who work three jobs are just the ones who will eventually succeed while those who sit in feces and bitch will be in the same spot in the future.

Meh, the tide will not turn...


THis system, was designed to be unfair, the economic one... Boy let me tell you, it is very unfair...

So if you wanna stand in the streets and yell HEY! Life is not fair, by all means go ahead...

LOL the tentacles of our life have tangled themselves into this Economic system, if it were to collapse break or whatever thousands if not millions of people will die.. Old and young.. This kum by yah, thinking all will be ok if we tear down capitalism, is madness...

capitalism will fall on it own, The same people wanting to tear it down, will be missing it... Because you will be dependent on YOURSELF, for survival...

If anything we should be protesting the AMERICAN Government and how our representatives have raped the constitution countless times, and how WE THE PEOPLE, are no longer important...

reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar


Kinda like the IT worker that paid oodles of interest on a student loan thinking it would benefit him in the long run, who is now forced into the fast food sector because his job was exported? That kinda guy?

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

 

Kinda like the IT worker that paid oodles of interest on a student loan thinking it would benefit him in the long run, who is now forced into the fast food sector because his job was exported? That kinda guy?

I know a lady who has a little boy about 9 years-old. The boy expressed an interest in building things and I innocently suggested that he would make a wonderful architect or engineer. Those are two careers that have always been needed and will be needed in the future. The mother replied he was going to go into computers, because she believes the internet will always be what it is now and he "will always have a job in computers".

The internet is changing. It will not be this in 10 years. I thought how she was limiting his future because she could not see further than her little box. But you can't argue with people like that, because they know everything. Computers were not his interest, but hers.

Education should be more affordable and the more professionals we have in this country, the less they will need to be imported. IT is not as skilled or professional as it once was and there is no need for web site designers because people are now able to do it on their own. At one time, everyone thought IT was the coolest job going, until we found out a lot of people could do it. Too many people want to become one thing, because it is cool so the employment market dries up.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I think you have a good point. I definitely think people are starting to open their eyes to the world as it really is.

And, yes, I would definitely take time out of my life to protest something I believe in strongly. I have done so before, when I was a kid in college.

Now, though, I have children for whom I provide. The fact of the matter is, they are more important than any political movement. At the end of the day, I don't want them to go to bed at night without a goodnight kiss and hug from me because I'm out "fighting for freedom!" from what?

I chose my current path. I enjoy providing for my family. My life doesn't revolve around money. Sure, I need money to live in the current world, but I'm not hoarding it to be seen as "rich". I don't drive fancy cars or wear expensive clothes or wine/dine at expensive restaurants. I save what extra money I have for my children's futures.

I don't care if they go to college. I don't care whether or not they protest for what they think is right. All I care about is that they grew up in a loving and supportive household and never had to know what it was like to have a stomach so empty that it feels like it's eating itself.

While the image of the child with the sign may have been poignant, I am left wondering... Where are that child's parents? What are they doing to ensure their child has a bright and promising future?

In the end, we create our own destinies. We, in some ways, create the initial shape of our children's destinies.

We who have been given children to care for need to care for them and bring them up to know that they can do whatever they want to do, regardless of what is going on politically.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

 

Kinda like the IT worker that paid oodles of interest on a student loan thinking it would benefit him in the long run, who is now forced into the fast food sector because his job was exported? That kinda guy?

I wonder how many IT related products he has over the years purchased all Made in China? So he has helped with maintaining the outsourcing of products and services but rallies against it when he loses his job because of it?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Dude how dare you assume that we, the people need to make informed, responsible purchases or else seal the fate of our own demise!?

After all, the 1% put the Walmart there, then added the McDonalds inside, ohhh I just can't resist it!

Originally posted by Jiggyfly
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

"We need solutions, not rhetoric."

You do realize you're using rhetoric there, right? In fact, almost every "argument" against OWS is just that.

"So I agree let's discuss the issues, Provide solutions and stop with the rhetoric from all sides."

You do realize that if you're going to quote somebody and attempt to make a valid point you should get the actual words used in your quote correct.

Right?

Context is everything.

Having read more of this thread, I would like to say:

I believe in my children.

I would gladly be a real slave, subject to abject torture, and beaten with a cat o' nine tails every day if it meant my children were unharmed and free to live their lives as they chose to. Corporate slave, hah.

I would gladly fight with bare hands, tree branch, pitchfork- whatever - to free my children from a military occupation if it meant my children were unharmed and free to live their lives as they chose to. Socialist, hah.

The more I read about this movement, the more I see I don't really fit in anywhere with the politics on either side of the issue. No big deal, I happen to live in a country where I don't have to do either of the above to have a good life. My children are unharmed and free to live their lives as they choose to.

OWS, hah.