Why Russia/China always get dragged into conflicts?

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


ISRAEL got 200 Nuclear Warheads while IRAN got 1 suspected Nuclear weapon.
Look who is the real Threat?
Your President Obama is STUPID. You Have to Impeach Him ASAP or brought us all into a HELL of WWIII

US citizens are stupid they are tolerating their Corrupt and Warmonger President who had Nero Complex mentality.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Who gave Israel, or any country for that matter the right to tell another country what they can or cannot do.

Nobody. Common sense and survival instincts trumps international law daily.
For example, I didn't really hear the world in outrage after the Israeli strike on the Syrian reactor. The leaders of the world were actually "phewing" with ease after knowing one less mad regime is about to become a nuclear power.

Would you oppose an armed offensive on let's say... Russia's behalf, on African war-torn nations? I would actually love to see such a thing happens. Although it's not their right to interfere with these countries, it will eventually help these countries and give them a chance at rebuilding themselves.

If a Somalian corrupted official will announce it's country has somehow announced it's completion of a nuclear weapon, will you sleep better knowing someone took it out, or will you sleep better knowing that nobody has a right to meddle in their business so nothing will happen and that extremely unstable country may launch a nuke somewhere on Earth at any given time?

And considering the peacefull nature of said country ( Iran hasn't invaded another country in decades, or started any form of international conflict) there is no justification for this, other than self interested ones.

Iran is no peaceful country. They actively support terror groups, and one especially - Hizbollah, which is currently the cause of the worst crisis Lebanon has ever had.
They supply weapons to terror groups with no higher purpose than random shooting at civilians. Just because they act behind their proxies does not mean they are peaceful. If Israel would use a foreign force for it's last offensive campaigns would you describe us as a peaceful country? I didn't think so.

Peace and security, that's all I hear about when people talk about Israel. How important it is to keep them safe. Perhaps if they wanted to stay safe they would attempt a little diplomacy and peace.

Give me one example of Israel not even trying to use diplomacy before reaching to an armed conflict in the past decade.

Isn't it clear to those watching on the sidelines? It sure is to me. Besides, Isreal is being a pretty big hypocrite refusing to allow other nations a means to defend themselves and to tell other countries to lay off their bully tactics, when they themselves lie about their nuclear arsenal.

Israel does not lie, and does not even needs to lie about it's nuclear arsenal. People in the know, already know. You and I, well, you can consider us the ones that are being lied to. Not that it's not already wide known that Israel is a nuclear power.

Be the change you'd like to see Israel, I can't support your treasonous, violent government until you actually do something peacefull.

With such blind comments nobody needs your support, with all due respect.




After reading and replying to the most of your post I have only a single question to ask:
How on earth is this relevant in any way to the original post in my thread? It isn't. You posted this entire propaganda filled post only because of my username. If it wasn't so clear I am Israeli, you wouldn't even bother.
I know you're not posting as a moderator but as a moderator I'm sure you should know not to try to derail threads only to contribute your personal agenda into them.

This thread is about a simple question damnit, and only 3 or 4 posts actually discussed it while the other dealt with morality issues and Israel.

What on Earth is wrong with this board?

Originally posted by antioligarchs

I'm really honored you used my thread to further spread your copy/paste speech. I really am.

Originally posted by diddy1234
To put the boot in on the USA and show that they are no longer a super power.
China could do that and show that they are the new world power
I am not so sure regarding Russia though.

How are you so sure that Russia or China are capable of "putting the boot" on the USA? Are you a child who only wants to see US destroyed or are you a person with an educated opinion that can explain how exactly is the US going to be destroyed by China's hand?

By the way, military speaking, Russia is FAR more capable than China is.

Because we are still playing the "great game" and Iran lays at the crossroads of said game, attacking Iran is bad Juju since all sides want to control Iran.

Rolling back to an older addage from the "Heartland Theory" by Halford Mackinder (father of modern Geostrategy)
en.wikipedia.org...

"He who controls the heartland commands the world Island, he who commands the world Island controls the world." to paraphrase the principles in play.

While such a plan might seem impossible to some or a conspiracy theory to others, it was in fact adopted by the Nazis as their plan to rule the world..

The first warnings about this where made at the Versailles Peace conference at the end of WW1 (the warnings where made both both Mackinder and Maynard Keynes, based on their economic and strategic concerns and outlined the war that was to come)

In their turn (post WW2) the Americans (Nicholas Spykman) amended the strategy and it was called "Rimland"
en.wikipedia.org...

"He who controls the rimland rules Eurasia; he who rules Eurasia controls the destinies of the world."

These are the principles in play, and an attack on one of the geostrategic pivot points is going to attract a lot of unwanted attention and some pretty bad juju, as neither Russia or China can afford to step back.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


China has the worlds biggest army, they also have the 'you start - we finish' mentality.
Russia does have better military equipment than china but not the iron fist mentality.

You were asking if I want to see the USA go down the pan, NO certainly not.
However, I do feel that the west (I use the term not just to cover USA but Britain, France etc) is due some payback for its woes.

Take the UK for example, once our mighty nation never had the sun set on its empire.
Our own arrogance made us rule the world.
Our own arrogance also led to our demise.

Originally posted by diddy1234
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

China has the worlds biggest army, they also have the 'you start - we finish' mentality.
Russia does have better military equipment than china but not the iron fist mentality.

You were asking if I want to see the USA go down the pan, NO certainly not.
However, I do feel that the west (I use the term not just to cover USA but Britain, France etc) is due some payback for its woes.

Take the UK for example, once our mighty nation never had the sun set on its empire.
Our own arrogance made us rule the world.
Our own arrogance also led to our demise.

'Big' means nothing when it's superpower vs superpower. Take for example India vs Russia:
India has 10 times more army personnel than Russia. Does that mean anything? Do you honestly believe India could stand fighting against Russia and even defeat it?

I don't quite get the mentality example you wrote, but I doubt the Russian mentality is less wanting to win than China's.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
Because we are still playing the "great game" and Iran lays at the crossroads of said game, attacking Iran is bad Juju since all sides want to control Iran.

Rolling back to an older addage from the "Heartland Theory" by Halford Mackinder (father of modern Geostrategy)
en.wikipedia.org...

"He who controls the heartland commands the world Island, he who commands the world Island controls the world." to paraphrase the principles in play.

While such a plan might seem impossible to some or a conspiracy theory to others, it was in fact adopted by the Nazis as their plan to rule the world..

The first warnings about this where made at the Versailles Peace conference at the end of WW1 (the warnings where made both both Mackinder and Maynard Keynes, based on their economic and strategic concerns and outlined the war that was to come)

In their turn (post WW2) the Americans (Nicholas Spykman) amended the strategy and it was called "Rimland"
en.wikipedia.org...

"He who controls the rimland rules Eurasia; he who rules Eurasia controls the destinies of the world."

These are the principles in play, and an attack on one of the geostrategic pivot points is going to attract a lot of unwanted attention and some pretty bad juju, as neither Russia or China can afford to step back.

That's very interesting read, although I don't quite understand what exactly makes Iran such a strategic pivot point? Could you elaborate on that?

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy
For example, I didn't really hear the world in outrage after the Israeli strike on the Syrian reactor. The leaders of the world were actually "phewing" with ease after knowing one less mad regime is about to become a nuclear power.

Would you oppose an armed offensive on let's say... Russia's behalf, on African war-torn nations? I would actually love to see such a thing happens. Although it's not their right to interfere with these countries, it will eventually help these countries and give them a chance at rebuilding themselves.

If a Somalian corrupted official will announce it's country has somehow announced it's completion of a nuclear weapon, will you sleep better knowing someone took it out, or will you sleep better knowing that nobody has a right to meddle in their business so nothing will happen and that extremely unstable country may launch a nuke somewhere on Earth at any given time?

So when another nations, disagrees with another nation, it has the right to go to that nation and destroy it's infrastructure, kill it's civilians and create mass propaganda campaigns against them? I don't see what Somalia or Russia & Africa have to do with this. I sleep better knowing that other countries are minding their own business and aren't committing war crimes.

Iran is no peaceful country. They actively support terror groups, and one especially - Hizbollah, which is currently the cause of the worst crisis Lebanon has ever had.

I consider the IDF a terrorist organization and Israel therefore a Rogue State, considering it's blatant disregard for international law. They've also commited acts of piracy by intercepting flotillas in international waters.

Now this is not to say that Israe's enemies and other nations do not have blood on their hand as well, of course the faults exist on both sides.

They supply weapons to terror groups with no higher purpose than random shooting at civilians. Just because they act behind their proxies does not mean they are peaceful. If Israel would use a foreign force for it's last offensive campaigns would you describe us as a peaceful country? I didn't think so.

Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? And considering that Israel's military equipment and funding mostly come from the US, the described situation above is the reality in fact.

Israel does not lie, and does not even needs to lie about it's nuclear arsenal. People in the know, already know. You and I, well, you can consider us the ones that are being lied to. Not that it's not already wide known that Israel is a nuclear power.

Oh ofcourse Israel has never lied. And there's that sense of entitlement again. We "Don't need to lie, because we don't have to tell you anything Muahahahaha." Dangerous mentality. And if it's already wide known, then why aren't they pressued to officially declare their arsenal, as has EVERYother country with declared nuclear weapons?

With such blind comments nobody needs your support, with all due respect.

I would say your inability to view the faults of your government is very dangerous and perhaps the people of Israel should be fighting for peace among middle eastern nations instead of their destruction.

After reading and replying to the most of your post I have only a single question to ask:
How on earth is this relevant in any way to the original post in my thread? It isn't. You posted this entire propaganda filled post only because of my username. If it wasn't so clear I am Israeli, you wouldn't even bother.

It is a bit off topic, but I was interested in your comments and therefore I replied. As for this being propaganda and be writting this because of your username, that's an assumption. A wrong one at that.

What you wrote is what interested me, not who you are, or where you are from, I could honestly care less. I care about a human being's opinion, regardless of race, color or belief.

Give me one example of Israel not even trying to use diplomacy before reaching to an armed conflict in the past decade.

A few weeks ago during the whole UN member state with Palestine, Israel stated the only way to peace as via direct negotiations, yet the day after, resumed building settlements. Is that an effor towards peace, or an effort twards conflict, considering Palestinians wanted building of settlements to stop during negotiations?

Also the flotilla raids were an exercize in armed conflict and international and maritime law breaking, that is a fact.

But I agree that most of this is off-topic regarding the OP and to answer the question, Russian and China are drawn into conflicts for two reasons. Either economic gain, or regional security and stability for resources such as oil. (Via trade routes for example)

It's imperative that those countries keep those trade routes open if they intent to keep their energy needs satisfied.

~Keeper

Russia and China, have far more to gain than the USA in any war just now, Imagine the USA got beaten up badly in a war.. Where would that leave the rest of the world and all the people an nations that look towards the USA to be their saving grace...

Although both China and Russia are far more military equipped than they let on, PLUS China has bought most of Americas debt therefore the USA owes them, so again the USA have more to lose.

The simple fact of the matter is that if a global war was started, then the USA are sitting ducks.

China have already publically stated that Yellowstone is a top 10 target should TSHTF.

China, are historically one of the oldest civilizations in the world, therefore treat them as idiots at your own demise.

They have the loyalty of the people who would fight for them, they wouldnt go with a normal flowing war, they would attack places where it would hurt and cut of the USA people. Hurting the American people will hurt the nation more, think of the EMP attacks that could easily happen. The chinese arnt daft, they know where to strike. They have stopped investing in the Dollar which has brought about stock crashes, they have teamed up with other nations to bring down the Market, if you check the stocks seems the USA stocks are falling, yet the Chinese stocks are rising, it'll get to a stage where they will sell arms to them in order to stay afloat...

Russia's part in this... its simple they have the man power, and along with the Chinese man power, makes a heck of a lot of soldiers.

I did read somewhere that there are Chinese military already working within the USA on behalf of the USA. BUT who will these soldiers be more loyal to? the country they were brought up to love, respect, and be loyal to the day they die, or a Country thats on its knees....

If you bring down the dollar, then you bring down the military, bring down the military then you leave a nation open like a sitting duck.

If anything the USA and Israel have all to lose, and Russia and China have all to gain. either way you look at it, someone will make a lot of money out it regadless, You take over Iran and you effectively control the middle east, you save Iran, then they will be forever in your debt, and a strong one at that.

I believe although its my own thoughts alone, that these countries military are more advanced than known.
After all there is a blanket media ban on China, so how can we say for sure that they are no better off than the americans, as for Russia, off course they are going to say their military is on its knees. its all about playing the big game of chess, the Russians aint daft, neither are the Chinese, they collaborate together, play war games together, so they are effectively a big coalition Alone (2 nations) than all nations that lie under the umbrella of the UN.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
So when another nations, disagrees with another nation, it has the right to go to that nation and destroy it's infrastructure, kill it's civilians and create mass propaganda campaigns against them?

Not when it simply disagrees. When the rouge nation goes out of control and in this case, starts developing nuclear warheads, it tends to be a global problem.

I don't see what Somalia or Russia & Africa have to do with this. I sleep better knowing that other countries are minding their own business and aren't committing war crimes.

Then you totally missed my analogy.

I consider the IDF a terrorist organization and Israel therefore a Rogue State, considering it's blatant disregard for international law. They've also commited acts of piracy by intercepting flotillas in international waters.

I don't even know why I bother answering you. I'll try wrapping this up neatly.
Nobody cares whether you consider the IDF good or bad. Keep doing so and may you someday reach the truth, amen.
I'll address the flotilla part in the end of this post.

Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? And considering that Israel's military equipment and funding mostly come from the US, the described situation above is the reality in fact.

In no shape or form do the weapons from the US use for purposely hitting of civilians. Rather the opposite.
Smart and precision bombs are used to reduce spread damage which may hurt civilians. If Israel wanted, it could easily use cheaper bombs that cause 10x time more damage and get this whole thing over with in no time.

When there are civilians who are killed by the IDF 99% of the time due to Hamas embedding themselves onto the population. Operating from school yards and UN buildings, sounds familiar? I can provide evidence if you'd like, but I'm sure it will not matter as you would find another reason to whine at Israel.

Oh ofcourse Israel has never lied. And there's that sense of entitlement again. We "Don't need to lie, because we don't have to tell you anything Muahahahaha." Dangerious mentality. And if it's already wide known, then why aren't they pressued to officially declare their arsenal, as has EVERYother country with declared nuclear weapons?

Good job mis-representing my words. If anything, they are "We don't need to lie, because you are right here with us, helping us develop it".

I would say your inability to view the faults of your government is very dangerous and perhaps the people of Israel should be fighting for peace among middle eastern nations instead of their destruction.

I can see my government's faults very clearly thank you very much, but they have nothing to do with breaking international law or piracy. That is the language of an annoyed political blogger that did not bother to check his facts before opening his mouth (keyboard?).

The boarding of the vessels that were headed into Gaza which is a blockaded area (legally blockaded, check if you will and come back with the results) were declared justified by the UN commissioned investigation.

It is a bit off topic

A bit?
It has nothing to do with the topic.

but I was interested in your comments and therefore replied.

They couldn't be due to my comments because my comments had nothing about anything you ever written in this thread.

As for this being propaganda and be writting this because of your username, that's an assumtion. A wrong one at that.

I believe it's pretty accurate seeing as I havn't even posted my opinion about these matters yet you attack me like you already know my stance.

A few weeks ago during the whole UN member state with Palestine, Israel stated the only way to peace as via direct negotiations, yet the day after, resumed building settlements. Is that an effor towards peace, or an effort twards conflict, considering Palestinians wanted building of settlements to stop during negotiations?

The PLANS to building settlements has resumed after. No building ever took place, or am I wrong? It is nothing but a bargaining chip and has no connection between wanting peace or not.
Although, this still does not answer my question:
You said - Israel turns to violence before turning to diplomacy.
I said - Give me an example of violence before using diplomacy.
How is this violence?

Also the flotilla raids were an exercize in armed conflict and international and maritime law breaking, that is a fact.

That's strange because the report I was reading spoke of no law breaking. Will you please be kind enough to provide facts in the form of any report that claims it was illegal? Please do so before you declare such a thing as a fact.

and in my book if you cant deal with protesters peacefully (last election, remember the casualties?) you're not entitled to the responsibility of holding nuclear powers.

So then do you consider the US stable? If so then you haven't been watching the papers on OWS protests...

China wants to prove itself as the world superpower and Russia wants to be a major superpower again so both have been flexing their muscles and both are willing to fight.Especially Russia who has been provoking America with their bombers.

You don't start a fight with someone who has a friend whos willing to pounce also because they'll just jump in.That being Russia and Iran's relationship.

Originally posted by SmArTbEaTz

and in my book if you cant deal with protesters peacefully (last election, remember the casualties?) you're not entitled to the responsibility of holding nuclear powers.

So then do you consider the US stable? If so then you haven't been watching the papers on OWS protests...

Excuse me, but arresting protesters is still dealing with them peacefully.

How many were killed in the OWS protests by the US government?

Now tell me,
How many were killed in Iran in the protests after the elections?
And how many were killed in Egypt during the protests against Mubarak?

Don't make me laugh.

Russia and/or China factor into the coming war because they are the last powers left on Earth that have any capability whatesoever in standing against the West and they both know it. If Iran falls, that represents the last nation among the non-aligned powers on Earth. That leaves the United States. China and Russia as primary world powers to basically carve up the Middle East and elsewhere....or fight it out, whichever happens.

Russia, the US and China are also all short on resources vs. their native population needs. That means a prize like Iran is desperately needed and sought by all 3. None of the 3 will let one or two of the others take Iran as a prize without one hell of a fight. And so it begins...The first and perhaps last world war for resources and conquest in the 21st century. Israel is the trigger...but the fight between Washington, Moscow and Beijing has been building since the 1940's.

We thought this was all over and the threat had passed when we watched the wall come down in 1989. How could any of us have known then, that was only the start and foundation for the war we're about to see and the final settling of issues between the titanic world powers before really getting into the new Century. Look at it this way...We're ahead of the curve this time. It took a couple years longer before the same thing was done in the 20th century, and for essentially the same reasons. Time for Part III of the movie.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


I made no attacks against you. I ciritized Israel, the government, not the people. Please don't misinterpret my comments as anything else than a disagreement with it's policies and leaders.

What it comes down to in all honestly, regardless of other issues ( to which I say you have educated me on a few things, as a double check on my sources shows conflicting information on a few things you said, so I thank you for that.) is that Israel owns and operates an open aired ghetto.

If they were interested in peace, then they would be interested in the two state solution. Israel never had a right to the land, other than a biblical one, which in today's society isn't really a good excuse to own anything, but that's another thread entirely.

That needs to change, a solution MUST be found and having Palestine go through the proper UN channels to become a member and then have the support of the rest of world in the two state solution was imperative to the peace process.

The only country preventing all of this from moving forward and having peace, is Israel.

~Keeper

There are real indications that China economy is now in the process of joining the rest of the world in misery...within the last week alone the housing markets in numerous Chinese cities have plunged...

What solves a faltering economy, especially a young capitalist economy on the rise? Sing it with me, children.... W A R.

Perhaps China will discover the charms and pitfalls of the same sort of military-industrial economy that has sustained the US for seventy years now. Just a thought.

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy

Originally posted by SmArTbEaTz

and in my book if you cant deal with protesters peacefully (last election, remember the casualties?) you're not entitled to the responsibility of holding nuclear powers.

So then do you consider the US stable? If so then you haven't been watching the papers on OWS protests...

Excuse me, but arresting protesters is still dealing with them peacefully.

How many were killed in the OWS protests by the US government?

Now tell me,
How many were killed in Iran in the protests after the elections?
And how many were killed in Egypt during the protests against Mubarak?

Don't make me laugh.

edit on 7-11-2011 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)

You call getting shot in the face by a smoke grenade and beaten by a baton peaceful? Plz... So thousands of people haven't been killed, yet. But the protest just started and the government has even brought in Libyan mercenaries to influence the crowds so sit back and watch the show... People will die... Just like on 9/11... People have to die for war to be started.

So laugh all you want... but this is no joke to people who want peace and change... I do not feel for Israel...

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


Simply put, it all boils down to Irans geographic location in relation to all the players who want to control the heartland of Eurasia, hence why most of our chess pieces are spread out in that region and why more interest is paid in the MSM to the countries in the rimland/heartland than elsewhere.

The way I see it, for Russia and now China it's about expanding their sphere of influence into the heartland, and for the Britain and now the US it's about preventing that expansion. While the usual bumping of heads is bound to take place at some point over some spot important to both sides, for my mind this is one of those spots.

I am sure behind closed doors everyone knows what is really going on so I can not see Israel pissing into that pond without first having the backing of America. Even if Israel goes it alone without backing, it will still be perceived as driven by America which is what Russia, China and the worlds public would react to.

I hope nothing happens, but do feel this one location has the interest of all players in the game and would escalate quite quickly (hope this makes sense )

When everyone is dead, the Great Game is finished. Not before.
Kim by Rudyard Kipling.

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

The simplest answer is logistics. America's real contribution to military prowess has never been having the best weapons, which is sometimes true and sometimes not, but having a global network of bases and a blue water fleet capable of multiple sustained operations. Neither Russia nor China could match that.

Strategically, each has naval capacities that would be formidable in defense of their homeland, or for a first strike capacity, but neither is well suited for sustained operations in a war where the nation doesn't have a border with them.