The Black Madonna, page 1

The Black Madonna, page

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Topic started on 4-11-2011 @ 07:11 PM by proob4

What I have here is my family eirloom, this releif is very old according to my late father who said that this had been in many families even our own. My father passed away as a former Grand Knight of Columbus. I have all of his medals, pics, badges, ect... to prove this. But I think he used this to gain power in the organization fast as he described. It was a artifact. He was very proud of it till the end. My father also showed anger in the KOC during his convelecence and ultimate end without any visit's from his local. Not one. I know cause I took care of my Father the last few years of his life.

Anyway I would like some questions about my personal Black Madonna. I do allready understand that 'Black Madonna' Happens due to antiquity and Facial paintings can become tarnished. But the face of Mary and the face of Jesus is ever so quite clear to something?

campus.udayton.edu...
Wiki

The Front:

Here is the Back:

Inscription(common):

Another shot of front:

Another back, note wear and old paint.

Another front different lighting

I am more than willing to take request in photo's for BM proof!

edit on 4-11-2011 by proob4 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-11-2011 @ 07:52 PM by charles1952

I believe you completely about the Madonna. There are about 450 Black Madonnas in Europe, sometimes the color comes from the wood used, and sometimes from the smoke of incense or candles. They can be a great aid to prayer.

You probably know all about the Knights, but may I review? The Grand Knight is in charge of a Council and there are over ten thousand councils in the US. The District Deputy is responsible for 3 to 5 Councils. Then there are State Officers and the State Deputy responsible for, you guessed it, the state. The next level up is Supreme and that's the international headquarters.

Grand knights do a lot of hard work and you should be proud.

reply posted on 4-11-2011 @ 08:05 PM by supine

Originally posted by proob4

What I have here is my family eirloom, this releif is very old according to my late father who said that this had been in many families even our own.

Did he give you any more history than this? How was it aquired by your family? What other families owned it?
Do you have any clue how old it is?

I am not joking here, but it would be interesting to have this on something like Antiques Roadshow, not to find out so much what it would be worth, but to see if an expert has more detail on it.

Thanks for sharing

reply posted on 4-11-2011 @ 08:51 PM by charles1952

Try looking at this one. I know it's not the same but the stars outside the halo and the start of the inscription at the bottom look promising.

Black Madonna

reply posted on 12-11-2011 @ 08:52 PM by proob4

reply to post by charles1952

Yes those are modern day Icon's. With the same prayer. I really wish someone who knew lot's about antiquity could give me a real date on this early relief icon. I am thinking at the very least this is 200 years old. But i do believe it could be many hundreds of years older. That is why I am looking for someone who might know.

reply posted on 12-11-2011 @ 09:00 PM by silent thunder

Very interesting, OP.

You should know there is a longstanding icon forgery tradition in Russia and Eastern Europe, although you say it is a family heirloom so perhaps it is not a forgery. Then again it could be an old forgery of something even older. Not to be pessimistic, but it's worth considering all angles.

It is hard to see from the pictures, but could it have an icon cover? The raised-relief portion looks like wood in your pictures, and icon covers are usually metal, but perhaps not always. The icon cover is often placed upon an even older work to protect it, although over time it can age itself and seem to be part of the original icon. Is there a separation between the raised-relief part and an underlying image, such as where the head is?

If you live in America, you might consider contacting these people, who are experts. They could either help you to determine the validity of your icon, or help you find somebody who can:
www.museumofrussianicons.org...

Good luck!

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