The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Originally posted by Alienmojo
However, confused or not, the op is not lying. He is calling it as he sees it and has come on here to get more information. NOT to be insulted at every turn. This is the reason why I no longer start threads. I hate the ridicule.

Besides one person on the first page (and that one person has been denounced by the rest of us), who else called the OP a liar?

reply to post by Aestheteka


That's not an example of the Moon throughout the night, it's photos taken every day at the exact same time......Therefore you will never see the Moon other than at that particular angle! *facepalm*......Seriously why is science so hard for some people? Did you see the animation on how the Moon traveled across the sky for a night? Well imagine you came out every night at the same exact time with the Moon directly at the apex of it's nightly arc and took a photo....Then animated them together. You'd never see the shadow roll with the moon as it orbited......You'd only see Phases of the Moon change.....It's really not that hard to understand.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


Actually that's a computer simulation. It's an idealized version of what you would see, and ignores the rotation of the earth.

Courtesy: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center Scientific Visualization Studio

The animation archived on this page shows the geocentric phase, libration, position angle of the axis, and apparent diameter of the Moon throughout the year 2011, at hourly intervals. The Current Moon image is the frame from this animation for the current hour.

This marks the first time that accurate shadows at this level of detail are possible in such a computer simulation. The shadows are based on the global elevation map being developed from measurements by the Lunar Orbiter Laser Altimeter (LOLA) aboard the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO). LOLA has already taken more than 10 times as many elevation measurements as all previous missions combined.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


Yes. Aestheteka's video showing the Moon's libration is not germane to the topic of this thread because each frame of that video could have been taken with the Moon high in the sky each time.

The "tilting" of the Moon so the terminator line leans toward the horizontal is something that is only seen when the Moon is near the horizon, and is only really noticeable in the late fall, winter, and very early spring in the mid-latitudes (but is noticeable almost all-year round at lower latitudes).

The moon should be tilted a lot more like a backwards C instead of like a U in Las Vegas. The moon tilted like a U is something that happens on the equator.

Las Vegas is not on the equator or even in the tropics. Las Vegas is in the mid-latitudes.

earthsky.org...

The boat moon or smile moon in the photo in this link is in Missouri. Missouri is at 38 degrees N latitude. It's in the mid-latitudes, not the tropics. It's a long ways from the equator.

Note that a crescent moon has nothing to do with Earth’s shadow on the moon. The only time Earth’s shadow can fall on the moon is at full moon, during a lunar eclipse. There is a shadow on a crescent moon, but it’s the moon’s own shadow. Night on the moon happens on the part of the moon submerged in the moon’s own shadow. Likewise, night on Earth happens on the part of Earth submerged in Earth’s own shadow.

www.absoluteastronomy.com...

The direction in which the "horns" (the points at the intersection of the two arcs) face indicates whether a crescent is waxing (also young, or increasing) or waning (also old, or decreasing). Eastward pointing horns (pointing to the left, as seen from the Northern hemisphere) indicate a waxing crescent, whereas westward pointing horns (pointing to the right, as seen from the Northern Hemisphere ) indicate a waning crescent. Note that the directions the horns point relative to the observer are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere.

The angle of tilt is determined by where the observer is (what latitude.)

en.wikipedia.org...

The orientation of the Moon's crescent also depends on the latitude of the observation site: close to the equator, an observer can see a smile-shaped crescent Moon.

www.alaska-in-pictures.com...

Here is a photo from Seattle, WA. Seattle is at 47.5 degrees latitude. It is closer to the N Pole than it is to the equator.

science.nasa.gov...

This photo is from Kansas on March 8, 2008. Kansas is at 38.5 degrees N Latitude. It is far from the equator.

brandon-merkl.blogspot.com...

Here is a person describing their first time seeing a boat moon during a visit to the equator. The photos are missing from the article but the first paragraph is indicative of the difference between the moon in Singapore, at the equator, and the moon in Denver, CO, where this person is from and which is at 40 degrees N latitude.

gravity.wikia.com...

The orientation of the Moon's crescent also depends on the latitude of the observation site. Close to the equator, an observer can see a boat Moon.

I read an online site for a planetarium recently explaining something to students in a state and city that I won't mention except to say it's at 43 degrees N latitude which is almost 1/2 way to the N Pole. People were wanting to know why they had seen the boat, smile moon at this location in March. There was a short explanation which didn't explain anything and readers were cautioned that the long explanation was very complicated. It sure was. The long explanation put the viewer, at this location, between the sun and the moon in the sky so that the sun was south of the viewer and the moon was north of the viewer. In March at the equinox (when the direct rays of the sun fall on the equator at 0 degrees latitude) the sun is located directly over the equator. Throughout the year the sun traces a path that takes it as far north on the solstice as 23.5 degrees. The moon is never more than 5 degrees (5.1) away from this path. The sun was on the equator and that part was good. It was south of this place. The moon, however, was north of this place. That means that the moon had to be at 44 or more degrees N of the equator because this place was at 43 degrees N. The most northerly point for the moon is 23.5 degrees N (the most northerly point for the sun) plus 5 degrees. So when the sun is at the equator, it's possible that the moon could be at 28.5 degrees N. Quite a ways from the 44 degrees N where the explanation for the smile moon in this location was putting it.

answers.yahoo.com...

Here the question of 'Why is the moon never directly overhead?' is answered.

The Moon orbits at an angle that varies between 18 and 28 degrees relative to the equator. If you lived at 28 degrees latitude or lower (southern Florida or further South), the Moon could be located directly overhead. Or, if you lived in the Southern hemisphere above 28 degrees South latitude, you'd occasionally see the Moon directly overhead (Brazil, Peru, etc).

The Sun's position travels at an angle of 23 degrees relative to the equator. The Moon probably started out orbiting along the Earth's equator, but the Sun's gravity has pulled the Moon to within 5 degrees of it's own plane. That means the Moon's orbit varies between -5 and +5 degrees of the Sun's plane (actually, the plane of the Earth's orbit around the Sun).

My illustrations for explanation of the "Moon upside down"

This image is made using screenshots from astronomy software StarryNight Pro.
Image on the left - 7 PM, November 21 2010, on the right - 6 AM, November 21 2010:


This image is made using screenshots from the video.
Image on the left - 4 PM, November 14 2010, image on the right - 12 AM, November 15 2010:

reply to post by sergejsh


Video at the url on the last graphic shows not available - maybe a name or another url?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
The moon should be tilted a lot more like a backwards C instead of like a U in Las Vegas. The moon tilted like a U is something that happens on the equator.

Las Vegas is not on the equator or even in the tropics. Las Vegas is in the mid-latitudes.

You are not taking into account the tilt of the Earth and the approaching winter season.

During the Northern hemisphere winter (or heading into winter, like we are now) the Northern hemisphere is tilted "away" from the Sun's ecliptic plane -- but only during the day. As you can see inthe graphic below, as the earth turns toward the night, the Northern hemisphere tilts more towards the ecliptic plane.



The Moon is generally aligned wit the ecliptic plane(* see note below), so when at night when the Northern mid latitudes turn with the Earth toward that ecliptic, it puts those mid latitudes (such as Las Vegas) more directly in line with the Moon.

That's why this graphic (originally posted by Uncinus back on page 14) makes sense:


The Winter Moon (and somewhat the November Moon) is more directly overhead in the night sky and rises and sets more due east and west (respectively) than the Summer Moon does at night. The Summer Moon at night is lower in the southern sky, and never gets directly overhead.

This is the complete opposite what the Sun does. In the Northern Hemisphere summer, the Sun is directly overhead, while in the winter daytime hours, the Sun is lower in the Southern sky. The winter moon/summer moon path is opposite the winter sun/summer sun path because of the tilt of the Earth...

...and it is also that tilt that puts the November night Northern hemisphere tilted more "down" toward the eclpitic plane.


* Note:
Actually the Moon is not exactly aligned with the ecliptic plane. It is off by 6° above the ecliptic on the night side -- which means it would even be closer to being directly above the Northern hemisphere in late fall and winter.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


The graphic you present showing the 'Moon's Winter Path' is no good because it doesn't have a sun. The graphic itself is credited to the Goddard Space Flight Center so I'm not faulting you for this. The graphic is also used in this link:

curious.astro.cornell.edu...

which has this to say:

Is the Moon seen as a crescent (and not a "boat") all over the world?

Recently a friend of mine visited the country of Bali in Africa. She claims that because that country is south of the equator, the Moon, instead of having a crescent shape during certain phases, will actually have a "boat" shape. Is she pulling my leg ?? Isn't the crescent shape seen the whole world over ??

Cameroon in Africa where there is a Bali airport is listed as being very near the equator at 6 degrees N.

Kristine: Your friend is right; the orientation of the crescent moon depends on the latitude of the person observing it (the size of the crescent, however, is the same wherever you are).

This means that if the concave part of the crescent points "left" in North, it will point "right" in the South. Since the transition from a "left" pointing crescent to a "right" pointing one must be smooth, we require that the Moon be a "boat" instead of a crescent at the equator.

The first diagram you present is relevant to an observer in outer space. "The angle of tilt is determined by where the observer is (what latitude.)" That's a quote from my previous post. The phase is always the same and is independent of the location of the observer but the tilt is not. I'm not talking about any tilted orbits. I'm talking about the tilt of the moon which is bound by the geographical, latitude, location of the observer.

Originally posted by Uncinus
reply to post by bhornbuckle75

 

Actually that's a computer simulation. It's an idealized version of what you would see, and ignores the rotation of the earth.

Courtesy: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center Scientific Visualization Studio

edit on 9-11-2011 by bhornbuckle75 because: Something something

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Whoops....Ignore this...thought I was responding about something else.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

The graphic you present showing the 'Moon's Winter Path' is no good because it doesn't have a sun. The graphic itself is credited to the Goddard Space Flight Center so I'm not faulting you for this. The graphic is also used in this link:

I think you might understand this a little better if you focus on the ecliptic. The ecliptic is the plane of the earth's orbit around the sun. The moon is a bit "above" this. But roughly follows the same path in the sky. For simplicity treat the moon's path as the ecliptic.

Now in those diagrams, the sun's position can be determined by figuring out where the face of the full moon is pointing. This is surprisingly head-hurting to do. It helps to have visual aids.

Look at the moon.
Point your left arm directly at the moon
Point your right arm out at right angles to your right
Tilt or move your right arm directly up or down so your right arm is pointing at the direction indicated by the light.
Now think about how much of a crescent there is. Imagine a clock fack with a new moon at 12 o'clock half waxing moon at three o'clock, and a full moon at 6 o'clock. The waxing crescent in the diagram is about at 1 o'clock
Swing your right arm towards or away from your left until it's at the correct o'clock
Your right arm is now pointing at the sun.

An importnat lesson here for me was that the crescent does not point at the sun it points along the ecliptic. You need to figure out the angle in the ecliptic from the phase. This can be quite counterintuitive.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
The graphic you present showing the 'Moon's Winter Path' is no good because it doesn't have a sun. The graphic itself is credited to the Goddard Space Flight Center so I'm not faulting you for this.

You can tell where the Sun is in that graphic by the part of the Moon that is lit up.

In that graphic of the Moon's seasonal path and how they look upon setting in the west, The Sun would be over the western horizon directly below the winter Moon. For that graphic of the summer setting Moon, the Sun would be below and to the "right" of that Moon.

That article you linked also stated this:

During summer in the northern hemisphere, we are tipped away from the Moon's orbit, putting the Moon lower in the sky and creating more of a crescent. During winter in the north, we are tipped toward the Moon's orbit, putting the Moon higher in the sky and creating more of a boat.

So -- LIKE I SAID -- in the winter months in the Northern Hemisphere, the mid-latitudes are tipped toward the Moon's orbital plane. THEREFORE, during the winter months in the mid-latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere will be able to see a boat-moon as the Moon rises or sets because the northern hemisphere is more tipped toward the Moon's orbital plane during winter nights (as seen in my graphic below).

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...The first diagram you present is relevant to an observer in outer space. "The angle of tilt is determined by where the observer is (what latitude.)" That's a quote from my previous post. The phase is always the same and is independent of the location of the observer but the tilt is not. I'm not talking about any tilted orbits. I'm talking about the tilt of the moon which is bound by the geographical, latitude, location of the observer.

Let's say that the observer you mentioned is in Las Vegas, and it is winter.

As you can see on the graphic below, on winter nights, the equator is 23° below (to the south of) the ecliptic plane. Las Vegas is 36° North of the Equator, so 36° minus 23° = 13°. That means that Las Vegas is 13° above the ecliptic plane.

Furthermore, the Moon's orbital plane is not exactly aligned with the Sun's eclpitic. It is actually tilted 6°. That tilt is 6° "above" the ecliptic in the Earth's night side (as shown in the below graphic). Therefore that puts Las Vegas even closer to being directly in line with the moon's orbital plane on winter nights. If Las Vegas was 13° North of the Sun's ecliptic, it is only 7° North of the Moon's orbital plane.




Actually, on a winter night in Las Vegas, a person would be closer to the moon's orbital plane than a person in the eqautor would (7° for Las Vegas versus 29° for the equator). Therefore, on a winter night, a person in Las Vegas would see MORE of the "boat-moon" effect while the Moon is setting than a person at the equator would on that same day.



********************



Here's a totally different way to conceptualize this.

Lets forget about the crescent Moon and the direction of the horns for a minute, and talk about a full moon. During the Northern hemisphere winters (say, at 40° N latitude), the apex of the Moon's path at night is very high in the sky (although slightly south), and it rises very close to due east and sets very close to due west.

As seen on the graphic below, as a person looks toward the south at the winter Moon as is at its highest point, the South Pole of the Moon would be generally pointing "down" toward the south of the observer. This also means that the Western part of the Moon will be facing to the observer's west, and the eastern part of the Moon will be facing toward the observer's east.

This orientation E-W-N-S orientation relative to the Moon's path will stay that way all through the Moon's path during the night. When the Moon was rising the Eastern part of it was pointing "down" toward the eastern horizon. When the Moon set's at night, the western part will be pointing "down" toward the western horizon. That's why the Moon appears to "flip" during the night.


Now, imagine this is a crescent moon rather than a full moon. The tilting and flipping effect will still be the same. If the horns of the crescent moon are pointing the the "right" (pointing toward the East) when the Moon is at its highest point, then those same horns will be pointing up (toward the East) when the Moon sets. Furthermore, when that crescent Moon was rising, the horns would have once again been pointing toward the east -- BUT East would be "down " toward the horizon, so the horns would have been pointing down.

So, you would have a (generally) horns down Moon at Moon-rise, "horns pointing left" when the Moon was at its highest point, and horns pointing generally up ant moon-set....

..And, as I said before (and as your links have said) this will be much more noticeable during the winter in the Northern hemisphere rather than in the summer. The Moon is too low in the night sky in the summer to really notice this.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I appreciate the thought and effort you have put into your reply to me. The boat, smile moon (the tilt of the light on the moon) is not a winter phenomena. There are plenty of illustrations from all over the world, some of which I have supplied, to show that this phenomena does not know a season. The 'Winter Moon Path' theory is no theory. The example I gave from 43 degrees N latitude happened in March.

Las Vegas is in the middle latitudes. It is not 'near' the equator. The tropics end at 23.5 degrees N and S of the equator. There is not a 'mostly at the bottom' or 'more pronounced' or 'kind of like' to explain this. There is only the location - latitude - of the observer. These are hard numbers.

I appreciate also the desire to want to try and explain this within existing parameters, however, just like the planetarium I mentioned above, it can't be done. It can only be done if the established order has changed and that's how they did it.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
I appreciate also the desire to want to try and explain this within existing parameters, however, just like the planetarium I mentioned above, it can't be done. It can only be done if the established order has changed and that's how they did it.

Can you do the math then? See what has actually changed in the existing order?

In your model, what has moved? By how much?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...I appreciate the thought and effort you have put into your reply to me. The boat, smile moon (the tilt of the light on the moon) is not a winter phenomena. There are plenty of illustrations from all over the world, some of which I have supplied, to show that this phenomena does not know a season. The 'Winter Moon Path' theory is no theory. The example I gave from 43 degrees N latitude happened in March.

It's not just a winter thing, but it is more noticeable in the winter -- especially for the waxing crescent and first quarter moon phase, because those phases set at night, and the moon is more noticeable at night.

In the spring and summer, the waning crescent Moon will set like an "upside-down" boat (crescent with horns down) on the western horizon in the north mid-latitudes. However this waning crescent Moon sets during the daytime hours, while the sun is very high in the sky. Fewer people notice this "horns down" Moon on the horizon because it will be happening in bright daylight (although it would still usually be visible).

This waning crescent will be seen as a boat (horns up) at Moon-rise in the late fall/winter, before the sun comes up.

Here is a picture from Nova Scotia (45° North latitude) taken in November 2008 of a "boat" moon soon after it had risen in the East.

img.photobucket.com...

In the above picture, the Sun is rising directly under the Moon, so of course the bottom of the Moon will be lit. It wouldn't make any sense for the "side" of that Moon to be lit if the Sun were just below it on the horizon.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...Las Vegas is in the middle latitudes. It is not 'near' the equator. The tropics end at 23.5 degrees N and S of the equator. There is not a 'mostly at the bottom' or 'more pronounced' or 'kind of like' to explain this. There is only the location - latitude - of the observer. These are hard numbers...

Your reason for mentioning the equator is because (in general) the equator lies closest to the Sun's ecliptic plane -- and the Moon's orbital plane is almost in line with the ecliptic. I understand this. That makes sense.

Las Vegas is at 36° North latitude. I understand your point about this being a mid-latitude, 36° from the equator.

HOWEVER, like my graphic shows, due to the tilt of the Earth the equator doesn't line up the ecliptic plane. The ecliptic plane (NOT the equator) could be considered to be 0° for the sake of this discussion.

Therefore the equator would be 23° south on winter nights, and Las Vegas would only be at 13° north of that ecliptic.

Therefore the equator would be 23° south on winter nights, and Las Vegas would only be at 13° north of that ecliptic.

For perspective, here's a moon titled 13 degrees setting from from directly overhead (i.e. it passed overhead, now it's at the horizon), in this simplified model.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

I appreciate also the desire to want to try and explain this within existing parameters, however, just like the planetarium I mentioned above, it can't be done. It can only be done if the established order has changed and that's how they did it.

I think this says it all.

Much like the OP who has moved on, I suspect this poster will not be swayed no matter how much logic, reason, and evidence the rest of you provide.

What is it the kids do these days? /Thread?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...I appreciate also the desire to want to try and explain this within existing parameters, however, just like the planetarium I mentioned above, it can't be done. It can only be done if the established order has changed and that's how they did it.

Pleas explain the problem you have with this graphic:



Why do you think it does NOT correctly explains why a moon can (on occasion) look tilted as it rises and sets, even from mid-latitudes?

If this graphic is wrong (in basic concept), please explain how you think the Moon SHOULD move along its path during a day/night as the Earth turns beneath it.

Here is a definition of a chaotic orbit:

www.daviddarling.info...

An orbit whose evolution is so sensitive to minor changes in the orbiting object's position and/or velocity with respect to other gravitating bodies that it is essentially unpredictable. Saturn's moons Pandora and Prometheus have chaotic orbits.

www.fortunecity.com...

This link asks the question, "Is the Solar System stable?" and goes on to answer that by first stating:

You might be surprised to learn that the Earth's orbit round the Sun, like those of other planets,is chaotic.

When the equations of motion of a system cannot be solved by mathematics, a possible alternative is to solve them using a digital computer . Although such a numerical integration provides less insight than a mathematical solution,it is one of the most powerful tools in modern dynamical astronomy.

In 1988, Sussman and Wisdom produced integrations using the Orrery which revealed that Pluto's orbit shows the tell-tale signs of chaos, due in part to its peculiar resonance with Neptune.

If Pluto's orbit is chaotic, then technically the whole Solar System is chaotic, because each planet, even one as small as Pluto, affects the others to some extent through gravitational interactions. But we now realise that although chaos means that some orbits are unpredictable, it does not necessarily mean that planets will collide - chaotic motion can still be bounded.

Laskar's work showed that the Earth's orbit (as well as the orbits of all the inner planets) is chaotic and that an error as small as 15 metres in measuring the position of the Earth today would make it impossible to predict where the Earth would be in its orbit in just over 100 million years' time.

Laskar's results still have to be confirmed by integrating the full equations of motion, but this will have to wait until the next generation of supercomputers arrives. Meanwhile, we can take comfort from the fact that his work does not imply that orbital catastrophe awaits our planet, only that its future path is unpredictable. It seems likely that the Solar System is chaotic but nevertheless confined, although we have yet to prove it.More than 300 years after the publication of Newton's Principia, we are still struggling to understand the full implications of his square law of gravity. We have begun to view our system of chaos in a light that is revealing the true intricacies of its majestic clockwork.

www.csmonitor.com...

In this story from this past July:

Trojan asteroid: NASA has discovered that Earth has an asteroid companion traveling just ahead of our planet as it orbits the sun.

"This one has behavior much more interesting than I thought we would find," study co-author Martin Connors, an astronomer at Athabasca University in Canada, told SPACE.com. "It seems to do things not seen for Trojans before. Still, it had to have some kind of extreme behavior to move it far enough from its Lagrangian point to get within our view."

The fact that 2010 TK7's behavior is chaotic enough to take it quite far from its rather stable Trojan point suggests it is only marginally trapped there, having perhaps only recently been disturbed from its original position.

Here is a site for Q&A supposedly for researchers and students of physics. Here someone asks the question "Is the orbit of earth around the sun chaotic?" The answer directs the student or researcher to Wikipedia.
physics.stackexchange.com...
That is a beginning for a circular answer. Similar to your arguments. Which I have shown to be folly.

In this forum the hypothetical question, "If an Earthlike planet had 2 moons and the 2nd disappeared, what would happen to the other moon, planet tides?" is asked.

The only way for a planet to have two moons is for them to have very little effect on one another. If they're large enough to affect each other, then you have a three-body system, and it's nearly impossible for a three-body system to be gravitationally stable.

That is a part of one of the answers this person receives. The important point being that it is "nearly impossible for a three-body system to be gravitationally stable."

So, to answer your question, Uncinus, no, I can't do the math and neither can anyone else. In these links it is shown that a small error can become very large over time. The boat, smile moon doesn't suddenly jump to a backwards "C" as the latitude changes. It is a progression. It starts as a smile at the equator and moving N or S from the equator, from the observers' latitude, it starts to tilt. These global sightings at diverse latitudes are new.