The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

reply to post by Devino


Good idea. But you'd also need to have them taken at the same time, as the moon terminator angle will vary during transit, relative to the horizon.

Here's the moon on the same day as CherubBaby's "upside down" moon, Nov 4th:

www.flickr.com...

It's all the same moon, but lots of different angles. Unfortunately most of the photos lack location, but clearly there's a very wide range.

The reason the Moon seems to tilt and "flip over" from moon rise to moon set is the same reason the constellations (such as Orion -- pictured here) seems to flip over from rising to setting. Orion takes a path very similar to the moon across the night sky, since they are both close to the ecliptic plane.


Here is what Orion looks like today (from where I live at 41.5° N latitude) when it is rising in the east. Notice that Orion is lying on his back, and his "bow" (which he is holding in his left hand) rises first, before the rest of him:




Here is what Orion looks like a few hours later when looking south. Orion is standing straight up and down:




And a few hours later again, when Orion is getting ready to set. Notice now that Orion has seemed to "flip over", and he is now sort of face down, and the bow in his left hand will be among the first part of the constellation to set:





Similarly, the first part of the moon to rise (generally) will also be the first part of the moon to set (generally).

I added the "generally" disclaimer because depending on the season, the affect will be more noticeable. In the winter time, the Moon rises almost exactly in the East, rides high in the sky -- almost straight overhead, and sets almost directly in the west. Therefore, the first part of the moon to rise is almost exactly the first part of the moon to set. Therefore it would have seemed to have "flipped" from Moonrise to Moonset.

In the summer, the moon is much lower towards the southern sky (rising in the SE and setting in the SW), so the effect is not as pronounced. While we see almost a 180° arc path from the Moon during the night in the winter, we see far less of the Moon's arcing path in the summer as it treks across the sky during the night

reply to post by Phage


I guess 19 pages of this was worth it to get you out of hiding.

The OP photo taken Nov. 4, 2011 in Las Vegas, NV after sunset is at 36 degrees N. That means it's 36 degrees N of the equator in the direction of the N Pole. 1/2 way to the N Pole from the equator is 45 degrees. There has been some mention of a 'winter moon path' - something that I personally have never heard of. The following photos are all from November and so fall within this 'winter moon path' vagarie.

xfinity.comcast.net...

The photo in this link is taken in Athens', Greece on November 2, 2011. The photo is credited to Yannis Behrakis for Reuters. That's 3 days before the OP photo. Athens is at 38 degrees N latitude. So pretty close to Las Vegas. Las Vegas is actually at 36 2' 23" and Athens is at 37 58' 0".

www.moonsighting.com...

The 11th photo down is taken in Phuket, Thailand on Nov. 7, 2010, about 1 year ago. The photo is credited to Ali. Phuket is at 8 degrees N. That means it is only 8 degrees N of the equator.

From the same link, the 13th photo down was taken on Nov. 9, 2010, also about 1 year ago. The place: Esfahan, Iran. The photo is credited to M. Sol. Esfahan is at 32.5 degrees N. So a little bit closer to the equator than Las Vegas and Athens.

The other photos on that link are also interesting as a comparison of chaos.

geography.about.com...

The direct rays of the sun and where they hit the earth are important to keep in mind when talking about the smile moon.

The equator is located at zero degrees latitude.

On the equator, the sun is directly overhead at noon on the two equinoxes - near March and September 21.

The sun is directly overhead at noon on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21 (the beginning of summer in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of winter in the Southern Hemisphere) and the sun is directly overhead at noon on the Tropic of Capricorn on December 21 (the beginning of winter in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of summer in the Southern Hemisphere).

magicvalley.com...

Autumn's evening crescent is a backwards letter "C," lying to the left of sunset, the horns tipped horizontally toward the sun's winter nadir.

So this is autumn, fall and right now the evening crescent is supposed to look like a "C."

The above description applies to locations throughout mid-northern latitudes, encompassing the entire contiguous 48 states as well as Europe, Asia and the Far East. Residents of temperate zones in the southern hemisphere would see much the same thing, only mirror-reversed.

Citizens of the Tropics see the moon's horns pointing upward throughout the year, and never horizontally.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong. All I'm saying is that things seem to be changing from an established order.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
There has been some mention of a 'winter moon path' - something that I personally have never heard of. The following photos are all from November and so fall within this 'winter moon path' vagarie.

Yes. This is because of the tilt of the Earth.

During Northern winter days, the Northern Hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun -- or tilted away from the Ecliptic plane. However, as the Earth spins and theat night it is tilted more toward the ecliptic plane, much like this graphic originally posted by 'Uncinus" one page back in this thread:
www.britannica.com...

The paths of the Sun and the night Moon would be opposite depending on season. In the Summer, the Sun is high in the Sky, rising more toward the East and setting more toward the west. In the Winter, the Sun stays low in the Southern sky, rising more toward the SE and setting more toward the SW.

The seasonal difference in path of Moon (when seen at night) is the opposite. The Winter night Moon rides high in the sky, rising more toward the east and setting more toward the west. The Summer night Moon rides very low in the Southern sky, rising more toward the SE and setting more toward the SW.

I hope that helped.

geography.about.com...

The direct rays of the sun and where they hit the earth are important to keep in mind when talking about the smile moon.

The equator is located at zero degrees latitude.

The Sun's rays hitting directly or not as directly on the Earth have nothing whatsoever to do with seeing a "horns up" or "Boat moon" as it sets or rises. This is only because people standing at the Equator are standing "on the side" of the Earth.

In the graphic below, you can see that people standing on the equator are standing more "sideways" to people standing -- say, for example -- than people near the North Pole. In fact, they are standing about 90° more "sideways":


People standing at the equator would have a different sense of what is "level" to their eyes as opposed to people standing near the North Pole. The sky -- especially the sky at the horizon -- will look turned 90° to people at the North pole relative to what people see at the equator.

This is why the "boat Moon" is seen at the horizon as the Moon sets or rises (depending on the Moon's phase -- The firist quarter will look like a boat at on the western horizon as it sets, but the last quarter Moon will look like an upside-down boat on the western horizon as it sets).

People near the North pole do NOT see the moon set like a boat because they are not standing on the Earth as "sideways" as the people at the equator. Again, like I said above, It has nothing to do with the Sun's rays being more (or less) direct. Except for "lighting up the Moon", the path of the Sun's rays can be ignored when trying to explain why people see a "Horns-up Moon" or "boat Moon" as the first quarter Moon or young Moon sets in the West.

As my graphic above shows, people near the mid latitudes (such as Las Vegas at 36° North) are also stand "somewhat" sideways on the earth. although not as much as people at the equator. So the terminator of the moon will look a little less horizontal to the people in the mid-latitudes, so the "boat" of the boat moon will not look completely level. As you head farther and farther north, the Moon on the horizon will look less and less tilted.


Look at my above post (or Here) about Orion "tilting and flipping" as it moves across the sky at night. Orion looks like it flips over during the night for the same reason the Moon looks like it does -- and it has nothing to do with the direct or non-direct rays of the sun.


I'm running out of allowable characters for this post, so I'll continue it in another post below...
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↑ ...Continued from above

Originally posted by luxordelphi

On the equator, the sun is directly overhead at noon on the two equinoxes - near March and September 21.

The sun is directly overhead at noon on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21 (the beginning of summer in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of winter in the Southern Hemisphere) and the sun is directly overhead at noon on the Tropic of Capricorn on December 21 (the beginning of winter in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of summer in the Southern Hemisphere).

Your excerpt above states:

...and the sun is directly overhead at noon on the Tropic of Capricorn on December 21 (the beginning of winter in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of summer in the Southern Hemisphere).

This is true for the Sun only, not the Moon. In the Northern winter/southern summer (and also somewhat in November as we approach winter in the Northern hemisphere) the Sun will be closer to being above the tropic of Capricorn at Noon, but the Moon will be closer to a point above the tropic of Cancer at night. This is due to the tilt of the Earth and the winter path of the Moon, as I described above. Las Vegas is 13° form the Tropic of Cancer.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

magicvalley.com...

Autumn's evening crescent is a backwards letter "C," lying to the left of sunset, the horns tipped horizontally toward the sun's winter nadir.

So this is autumn, fall and right now the evening crescent is supposed to look like a "C."

The above description applies to locations throughout mid-northern latitudes, encompassing the entire contiguous 48 states as well as Europe, Asia and the Far East. Residents of temperate zones in the southern hemisphere would see much the same thing, only mirror-reversed.

Citizens of the Tropics see the moon's horns pointing upward throughout the year, and never horizontally.

This article you linked is discussing the look at the Moon as it sets in the west for people in the tropics. It is true that the tropics will always see a "horns up" (U) young Moon as it sets on the horizon, no matter the time of the year. That same young and waxing moon will be "horns down" (∩) as it rises in the east (although it would be rising in the daytime, thus hard to see), AND it will look like a "Ɔ" (not a "∩" or "U") when it is high in the sky, halfway through rising and setting.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong. All I'm saying is that things seem to be changing from an established order.

Nothing is different now. The picture you posted of the Moon as seen from Las Vegas on November 4 is a perfectly normal moon that is doing exactly what the Moon has always done (at least since humans have been watching it).

You asked for expert opinion on the lies that were told about you...my expert opinion (having told several lies over the course of my lifetime) tells me the guy flipped your photo...I have already stated that...however, you stated he removed the date from your photo!!! and he did not...so, where does that leave you?

I'm thinking that a huge part of this perception of an inconsistent moon is that the moon actually does visually rotate quite a bit between moonrise and moonset, due to the rotation of the earth (and hence the observer moving).

This is most noticeable the closer you are to the equator, but happens everywhere to some degree. In the northern hemisphere it's more dramatic due the steeper path of the moon.

You can see this most clearly if you compare a rising moon to a setting moon viewed from the same location.

Here's the moon:



You can use the features of the moon the see which way up it is. I find that Mare Cristum in the North East is usually the most noticeable. Then Tycho is directly south, and there's a rough split of the southerm hempsphere into darkness in the west and light in the east. You can use all that to orient the moon.


Then using this, you can see the orientation of a moonrise and and a moonset, viewed from Las Vegas.


www.flickr.com...

www.flickr.com...


You can see that the moon has rotated relative to the horizon by quite a bit. Now the actual amount or rotation and the rising and setting angles will vary by location (and can be greater than shown above). But I think this apparent rotation is largely responsible for the "moon is upside down" threads.

reply to post by Uncinus


Uncinus --

Here is a graphic that shows the path and orientation of the moon. This happens to be the 1st quarter Moon, like the phase of the Moon was in the OP's picture from November 4th, 2011.



The first parts of the Moon to rise are also the first parts of the moon to set. Therefore it will appear to "flip over" on its path from Moon-rise to Moon-set.

This is similar to the images of Orion I posted above (and I apologize to the Mods and everyone else for posting them again, but I think I need to do so, for the context of this post). Orion lies near the ecliptic, so its path across the night sky is similar to the Moon's path.

Here is what Orion looks like today (from where I live at 41.5° N latitude) when it is rising in the east. Notice that Orion is lying on his back, and his "bow" (which he is holding in his left hand) rises first, before the rest of him:




Here is what Orion looks like a few hours later when looking south. Orion is standing straight up and down:




And a few hours later again, when Orion is getting ready to set towards the West. Notice now that Orion has seemed to "flip over", and he is now sort of face down, and the bow in his left hand will be among the first part of the constellation to set:



As you can see, just like the Moon, Orion (and the other constellations near the ecliptic) will seem to flip over during their path from rising to setting in the course of a day/night.

This video is an excellent example of a similar set of misunderstandings:

reply to post by Uncinus


You're right. There are many people who seem to have misconceptions about what the Moon should look like at different points on its path from rising to setting, such as the person who made that video.

Even the person who made that video pointed out that the image of the full moon was right after it had just risen, while the image of the 1st quarter moon was when it was high in the sky...

...so of course the orientation of the Moon -- and the orientation of the Moon's craters -- will be different (as seen in my graphic in my post above).

From that video:


He thinks it's weird the moon changes so much in four days.

But yes, that's pretty much the moons you would expect, given those dates.

Did we lose the OP? Did he take his ball and go home?

I guess that's easier than admitting you were wrong.

reply to post by CherubBaby

Funny to run across your post... My 7 yr old daughter and I went to the grocery store a few nights ago and she pointed out how the moon looked different than normal. I agreed and mentioned that it looked like a boat. I live in Henderson by the way so not too far =)


*** I also wanted to mention to those who say that the moon didn't appear upside down or "boat shaped" and gave this guy a hard time were wrong. It truly did look upside down and strange enough for my 2nd grader to mention it so everything you posted to disprove the post needs to be reevaluated because it does and it did happen.

reply to post by beenupsince2007


Everyone now agrees is happens. They disagree that it's anything unusual.

reply to post by Uncinus


Sorry, I tend to skip a lot when the posts are so long... As far as being unusual, I will have to say that I don't remember seeing the moon like this before. I also have to admit that I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the sky until a few years ago either so I am no professional but again, it was strange enough for my daughter to notice...

This is how I saw it and either way... Beautiful!!!

Originally posted by Uncinus
reply to post by beenupsince2007

 

Everyone now agrees is happens. They disagree that it's anything unusual.

I, too, never disagreed with the OP that it can be boat-shaped. I provided many graphics showing the Moon looking boat-shaped on occasion -- especially when setting (or rising) on the horizon, and especially in the fall and winter -- and I explained how and why it can look that way.

I'm just saying it is normal and has been that way as long as humans have been paying attention to the Moon. It is, however, more noticeable in the late fall and winter at the mid-latitudes. At lower latitudes (such as the tropics), this effect is more noticeable all year round.

Besides one person on the first page (and we all agree that person was wrong) I don't think anyone else in the 19 pages after that has said the Moon does not look boat-shaped sometimes.

Originally posted by beenupsince2007
As far as being unusual, I will have to say that I don't remember seeing the moon like this before. I also have to admit that I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the sky until a few years ago either so I am no professional but again, it was strange enough for my daughter to notice...

It's not unusual in that it happens on a regular basis, but it is infrequent, so in that sense it is unusual.

But it's natural. Part of the every changing (yet totally predictable) tapestry of the sky that nature has given us.

This entire thread represents a perfect example why I don't enjoy ATS anymore. I may not agree with the op on this one. But I understand his confusion. There have been times that I have looked up and thought the moon didn't look right, but I also know that there are serious astronomers out there every night looking up and if something were wrong they would speak up. So I realize that it is I who is confused.

However, confused or not, the op is not lying. He is calling it as he sees it and has come on here to get more information. NOT to be insulted at every turn. This is the reason why I no longer start threads. I hate the ridicule.

It reminds me of how road rage has increased in the last 20 years, the level of cruelity on ATS has increased very much over the years also. Personally I feel that there should be zero tolerance and anyone who is intentionally cruel should be banned.

With that said op I apoligize for how you have been treated. I do disagree with you however. I don't have the training in astronomy or physics to give you a scientific answer as to why, but I do believe in the laws of probability. So I truly believe if something weird was going on we would have heard about it by now. Especially how many have said this has been going on for years now.

Maybe we should pose this question to Michio Kaku or something? Either way, I hope you get a definitive answer to your legitimate question.