Some answers for the occupy haters...

reply to post by onecraftydude


By all means, do so. You don't need my permission.

But there are valid agruments on both sides. One must realize that.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I get where you're coming from. No goal, still after two months a muddled message and what message is starting to bleed through nowadays seems all left leaning. (Think unions)

I can't get behind that.

In the beginning I had hope that maybe it was a resurgent Tea Party under a new name and free of political influence. Alas, it was not meant to be.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

I won't support a movement that I don't know their goal...what if that goal becomes something that I am 100% against?

You clearly didn't understand the point I was making. People don't need a leader, because letting all the thinking be done by a few people is what caused most of these problems in the first place. They may no have EXACT goals, but this thing is spreading around the world, there isn't just one problem, and the solutions to these problems are complex. Anyone can see what the core values of this decentralized group are, this we can all feel in our hearts. Together they protest to express their common concern, not to merely make demands. If you are too afraid to join the group so be it. No one is asking you to. I'm simply asking you to see the bigger picture.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

I won't support a movement that I don't know their goal...what if that goal becomes something that I am 100% against?

You clearly didn't understand the point I was making. People don't need a leader, because letting all the thinking be done by a few people is what caused most of these problems in the first place. They may no have EXACT goals, but this thing is spreading around the world, there isn't just one problem, and the solutions to these problems are complex. Anyone can see what the core values of this decentralized group are, this we can all feel in our hearts. Together they protest to express their common concern. If you are too afraid to join the group so be it. No one is asking you to. I'm simply asking you to see the bigger picture.

edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

For anything to get done, there has to be a leader.

Whether by election or just through will of force.

A collective group of people is just that, some will even call them a unruly mob. But it's like trying to get your point across in a auditorium where everybody is trying to get their point across at the same time.

But without a clearly stated goal and a common sense message, the movement will eventually fall. Or more than likely, fracture. just like the Tea Party.

reply to post by TDawgRex


I'm actually the opposite ideology of you, we just had different hopes for OWS...but so far OWS has failed to evolve.

I was hoping OWS would be the left's answer to the Tea Party...but they can't even get that together....yet.

I still have hope...but it is diminishing with the escalation of violence in these protests.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

I still have hope...but it is diminishing with the escalation of violence in these protests.

Oh, you mean the guys wearing black. Yeah...they're designed to diminish hope.

there is video after video after video of these people making complete fools of themselves

OWS is a bunch of idiots who are completely out of touch with reality.

if you cant see that, its because you too are an out of touch idiot.

a small list of why i dont support them:
no realistic goals
no coherent plan
no viable solutions
no leaders


now lets look at what they do have..
socialist
communist
racist
rapist
violence
thieves
hypocrites
liars
lazy people


great "cause" to get behind here folks. really great.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

Anyone can see what the core values of this decentralized group are, this we can all feel in our hearts.

And what are those "core values"???

Because there are so many groups participating in OWS...they all have different "core values".

So can you please be more specific on what these "core values" are?

Are they shared by the Communist party that is marching with OWS? The Nazi Party? The Socialist? The Anarchist? I've even heard people make claims that the Tea Party is marching with OWS...are you trying to claim that OWS and the Tea Party share "core values"???

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

I still have hope...but it is diminishing with the escalation of violence in these protests.

Oh, you mean the guys wearing black. Yeah...they're designed to diminish hope.

edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

OH...I get it...they aren't part of OWS...even though "everyone" is part of OWS.

Do you see the problem I have with joining such a group???

I would have to be trying to defend the different factions of the group I don't agree with...and I would have to be dishonest (like you are doing) to try to do that.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

I'm actually the opposite ideology of you, we just had different hopes for OWS...but so far OWS has failed to evolve.

I was hoping OWS would be the left's answer to the Tea Party...but they can't even get that together....yet.

I still have hope...but it is diminishing with the escalation of violence in these protests.

In my opinion, that just brings me more hope.

When right and left leaning people see a problem and try to address it together. Then we may see solutions.

OWS may need to start kicking some vandal butts to reverse or reduce the violence.

I know....that's a double standard, but I believe it needs to be done.

I may not support OWS anymore, but I am still keeping a eye on them and not ignoring them either. Who knows?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

So can you please be more specific on what these "core values" are?

My whole opening post was trying to get across the core values and motivation behind the movement. Perhaps you might want to read it again.

OH...I get it...they aren't part of OWS...even though "everyone" is part of OWS.

They clearly weren't a "part" of it if the entire crowd was booing them and fending them off. I bet you'll believe it when the MSM plays a clip on TV showing their voilent behavour and giving the impression that were part of the mob.

reply to post by pngxp

you too are an out of touch idiot.

Eh probably. Who's to really say. We're all a little bit out of touch with reality you know?

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

My whole opening post was trying to get across the core values and motivation behind the movement. Perhaps you might want to read it again.

And you contradict yourself in your OP.

Can you not just simply state what the "core values" are? Is it that hard of a thing to ask?

Why can't OWS supporters answer simple direct questions without a page long rant that contradicts itself???

They clearly weren't a "part" of it if the entire crowd was booing them and fending them off. I bet you'll believe it when the MSM plays a clip on TV showing their voilent behavour and giving the impression that were part of the mob.

Clearly???

So you are saying that anarchist aren't part of the 99% and have no place in OWS??? What about being for the people? What about being the voice for ALL people?

And by watching the clips of whole foods...I see a couple people trying to stop them...most of the crowd walking past them, and some of the crowd cheering them on.

If OWS can't control their own marches, that is just another reason not to be a part of the movement.


You aren't doing a great job as the defender of OWS....don't worry...others have tried and have slinked back into the shadows. I think they realized that it is hard to try to defend something that has no defense...because they have no firm stances on anything.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

If OWS can't control their own marches, that is just another reason not to be a part of the movement.

Your entire premise is completely absurd. You expect every single person to be the perfect model of a protestor (according to you).

You expect them all to believe in the exact same things and to have all the exact same goals. You pick anyone that looks dumb or believes in something outrageous and you get angry and say you'd never protest with people like that. We both know the truth, and the truth is it's impossible for all these people to want the same things, it's impossible for them to act the same way, it's impossible for them to believe in the same things. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for people to get together for a common cause and demand change.

This isn't such a clear cut problem, it's hard to understand why the world is in the state it is. We all know it really comes down to corporate corruption and the greedy banking institution, and the Government that plays along with it. And even deeper than that, I think it's about the inequality and the massive gap between the rich and poor. I could give you a hundred ideas for lessening corporate control over the government and lessening the gap between the rich and the poor, but it's much more complicated than simply having a theory for how to fix it.

You sit here claiming they need some sort of solid goals yet I don't see you out there putting your ideas on the table. And even if you did offer ideas, they wouldn't be perfect or absolute. Some people would disagree and others would agree. You wouldn't be able to magically provide exact goals because there is no such thing when you are talking about a massive decentralized mob of people, each of which is extremely different in many different ways.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Maybe they don't have an exact goal

In your own words...until this gets resolved...I can't support them.


I won't support a movement that I don't know their goal...what if that goal becomes something that I am 100% against?

then go to the protest and share your goals. that's how it's working. people vote for what the goal is. i'm pretty sure the OP stated that. We(as in you and me) can sway the direction this protest goes and if we don't get involved and it doesn't go our way we can in fact blame ourselves.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Your entire premise is completely absurd. You expect every single person to be the perfect model of a protestor (according to you).

Yes, I expect protest to be peaceful and non-violent. Furthermore, I expect protesters to respect the rights of others, passersby, while they are claiming to be the disenfranchised.

You expect them all to believe in the exact same things and to have all the exact same goals. You pick anyone that looks dumb or believes in something outrageous and you get angry and say you'd never protest with people like that. We both know the truth, and the truth is it's impossible for all these people to want the same things, it's impossible for them to act the same way, it's impossible for them to believe in the same things. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for people to get together for a common cause and demand change.

Yes, I expect them to take note of successful protests and act accordingly. Why should I support a group of people when they can't even agree among themselves?

This isn't such a clear cut problem, it's hard to understand why the world is in the state it is.

Maybe for you.

We all know it really comes down to corporate corruption and the greedy banking institution, and the Government that plays along with it.

No, the corporate profiteers and the greedy bankers play along with corrupt government.

And even deeper than that, I think it's about the inequality and the massive gap between the rich and poor. I could give you a hundred ideas for lessening corporate control over the government and lessening the gap between the rich and the poor, but it's much more complicated than simply having a theory for how to fix it.

As long as none of those ideas violate anyone's rights, we'd love to hear them.

You sit here claiming they need some sort of solid goals yet I don't see you out there putting your ideas on the table.

For some of us this isn't our first rodeo, this isn't the first movement we've seen. You are late to the game, and thinking fallaciously if you believe that supporting OWS is the only way to fix the state of things

And even if you did offer ideas, they wouldn't be perfect or absolute. Some people would disagree and others would agree. You wouldn't be able to magically provide exact goals because there is no such thing when you are talking about a massive decentralized mob of people, each of which is extremely different in many different ways.

Maybe if this was my first involvement in a protest, or in practicing my free speech, I would agree. But other successful protests have managed to have a clear, concise, message that was easily understood. I'm not going to cut OWS any slack just because they can't figure it out.

I happen to believe that a war is pretty pointless unless you have a specific enemy to fight -- ref. The War on Drugs, The War on Terrorism -- and that a protest is pretty pointless unless you have a specific person or entity you're trying to communicate to who can actually do something about what you want. Otherwise, all you're doing is yelling at the sky.

A much more useful approach to tax reform (which apparently is the central issue) is to coordinate a useful and coherent advertising or public relations campaign to clearly identify the issue, and work with national legislators to help close some of the more glaring tax loopholes that allow those who benefit the most from the United States' liberal (in the non-political sense) economic system to pay their fair share to keep it going.

Just don't give me that crap about it being a success if it "raises awareness." Ugh.

A comprehensive list of official backers and supporters of OWS

pjmedia.com...

Communist Party USA, American Nazi Party, Ayatollah Khamenei, Supreme Leader of Iran, Barack Obama, The government of North Korea, Louis Farrakhan, Nation of Islam,
Revolutionary Communist Party, David Duke, Joe Biden, Hugo Chavez, Revolutionary Guards of Iran,
Black Panthers (original), Socialist Party USA, US Border Guard, Industrial Workers of the World, CAIR, Nancy Pelosi, Communist Party of China, Hezbollah, 9/11Truth.org, International Bolshevik Tendency,
Anonymous, White Revolution, International Socialist Organization, PressTV (Iranian government outlet), Marxist Student Union, Freedom Road Socialist Organization,
ANSWER, Party for Socialism and Liberation

And that doesn't include the organizations that organized it, Adbusters and Ruckus.

I think I see a bit of transferred guilt. Some here complain and cherry pick reasons why not to support and get involved blaming the protesters instead of getting involved themselves. The very reason we are in this mess. Lazy. Fearfull

As for being an inconvenience to others. They don’t seem to be too bothered about being inconvenienced by a few bankers so why not protesters.

A loose quote from Matrix. Until their minds are freed they are part of the Matrix and part of the problem.

To me this protest seems well to organised and seems to have a lot of resources behind it. Who would give it such backing and why ?

makes you think