RE: Every thread complaining about OWS

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by newcovenant

 

So even though I disagree with some of their goals and motives....I should support them???

Should I go support the Tea Party as well? Do you support the Tea Party and go to their rallies?

I don't exactly support or share ideas with them on everything but I DO support their activism and what they are trying to do to bring about change we can all live with and yes, I have been to the rallies. I got spit at but I went anyway. Would you fear for your safety at OWS? I kind of doubt it. That should tell you something.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by dolphinfan

 

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

Oh dear...

This is just a list of people's pet hates! Please tell me the policies that will be implemented that will counter these issues? Tell me how to stop the above, offering alternatives where necessary.

Let's look at random here.

First of all, Are we talking banks? Global organisations? Rich in general? Government? Who exactly is "they"?

Anyhow...

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. - So you're promoting positive discrimination, yes or no? How would you make sure this didn't happen and what if someone was clearly inadequate for the job/promotion, but based their argument for not getting it on one of the mentioned factors, how would you get around that?

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. - How exactly is state funded further education a Human right? It is a Human choice and most definately a privilege. Do please present the figures of how much this would cost and how the cost would be balanced...or is this just assuming by taxing the rich to the hills that it would cover this and everything else you mentioned.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices. - I agree with this, I'd use prisoners instead of animals, free up the prison space turn that in to studio apartments...But that's just me!

Look as I said in my thread, I'm behind the idea of change its just all this OWS is doing is shouting out whats wrong or what supporters subjectively percieve to be wrong without actually showing a workable alternative to how exactly they will change this. I work all the hours I can to get by and to be fair, I know rich people who have worked so hard to get what they have. Why should they give it up for people who want it all with minimum contribution? I agree we need real democracy and each country needs to look after their own, but I do not agree in ramblings and Marxist policies that would amount to further smashing in the average worker!

Offer solutions that work and you have my support, probably the support of all workers until then, I'll stick with the Devil I know!

reply to post by RSF77


It is a parody, a fantastic example of how meaningless the entire "protest" movement in this country has become. "get money out of politics" OK, that is a worthy goal and in and of itself would solve many of the issues that OWS is fighting against. There are reasonable steps that could be taken to do that within the confines of the system, but rather than that, as I have said before, this has become everything from campaign finance reform, to transgender rights, to biofuels.

Oakland burning would be similar to OJ. You're right, a lot of folks watched it, however they watched it the same way they watch a TV show. Disengaged, titlitated, entertained. Ultimately folks did not care what happened to OJ, it was a sideshow. Some gent getting up and going to work in Seattle or Phoenix is interested in Oakland burning, but only it the entertainment value. Ultimately he has to go to work, feed his family, etc and if the fools in Oakland want to burn down their neighborhood, thats up to them. Just don't ask him to pay to rebuild it.

You want to hammer about bankers and corruption? I'm with you. Throw in the unions and their blatant hiprocracy on this issue and the other pressure groups who influence politics with both money and in-kind support such as getting out (or supressing) the vote and I'm with you. These are very complex matters and the fools that toss out these overly generalized bromides thinking that they are doing anything like look immature are actually doing more harm to getting solutions implemented than good.

As it relates to pressure groups, we just had out yesterday the folks from ACORN shredding documents and telling folks to get out of town to shield their involvement. Media Matters and Soros are partially behind this, organized labor is in there as a pressure group. This is a festival of pressure groups manipulating fools who think they are accomplishing something.

Its ironic that the folks who are in the power elite today were in many instances instrumental in the Vietnam protest movement of the 60s/70s. What did that movement do? It turned public opinion against the war. It educated millions about what was going on. Certainly there were fringe elements of it, but the message was coherent. The message was simple and understandable. That protest was successful in that it ultimately forced an end to the war. What is ironic is that these same folks who were on the street then are leading these organizations who have allowed this movement to bleed into meaningless nonsenense.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


Its a manifesto about as coherent as the journal they find under the mattress of some serial killer. A bunch of ramblings. All it needs are some symbols and cryptic drawings.

How exactly do the bankers harm rights for gays? How do they impair our movement to alternative energy? Hell bankers are making bank on alternative energy the richest of the rich, the private equity shops, hedge funds and investment bankers love alternative energy.

Go through the list and explain how the bankers, Wall Street or the politicians impact each one of these issues. Not that they do, but how they do and what the solution would be. Just take the two I mentioned above, gay rights and alternative energy and explain how the bankers are at fault, what exactly is wrong and what needs to be done by whom to fix those problems and what the situation will look like once the problem is fixed.

Just those two

reply to post by wagnificent
You know in the begenning I did not agree with the OWS people and then I started to think about it.If these people want to be cannon fodder then watch and see what happens,it doesen't matter if they have no direction,that just makes it better to watch because soon they will be fighting among themselve's.

As for putting yourself in the middle of this circus and makeing an attempt to tell people where they may be going wrong, where would you start?there are a dozen different movements and none of them have a direction.To particapate in any of these OWS movements would be to participate in chaos and accomplish nothing except more chaos and to do the biding of the "evil socialist"as you put it, this is there manifesto not the people that want
out from under a corrupt government.

There, I gave a suggestion of where you might be going wrong, how will you deal with it I wonder??

reply to post by SecretFace


Right now we are currently in the "Awakening" phase as this will continue well into next year and during this phase objectives and long range goals are to be established. Sometime 2012 will be a Convention in Philidelphia to combine all the lists into one cohesive list. The order for now is to continue with the enlightenment and awakening as that creates and builds traction and support for this movement.

This is not just another list but this is what we seek!

What we seek is that the rich be made to pay their fair share in taxes so that the money generated could create jobs and allows and affords people the ability to stand on their own. No one here is asking for a handout or a bailout.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Banks working in concert with Big Oil finance wars and make huge profits off of it. Iraq ring a bell? Look at how 4 solar panel firms have gone under in recent months due to not having capital be made available to them so that they could expand their business. How many alternative energy commercials do you see on tv and how many petrolchemical commercials do you see? Banks and oil dominate the tv time.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

Find a pdf file of something called "The Occupied Wall Street Journal" it is the movements newspaper and look for Issue 1 and read the article "Learning From The World" and it is specified in there about the 12.

I don't enjoy wild goose chases.

But I did your work for you...and this is what I found.

www.breakingcopy.com...

QUESTION: I hear that Adbusters organized Occupy Wall Street? Or Anonymous? Or US Day of Rage? Just who put this together anyway?
All of the above, and more. Adbusters made the initialcall in mid-July, and also produced a sexy poster with a bal-lerina posed atop the Charging Bull statue and riot police inthe background. US Day of Rage, the mainly internet-basedcreation of IT strategist Alexa O’Brien, got involved too anddid a lot of the early legwork and tweeting. Anonymous—inits various and multiform visages—joined in late August. InNew York most of the planning was done by people involvedin the NYC General Assembly, a collection of activists, artistsand students first convened by folks who had been involvedin New Yorkers Against Budget Cuts. But no one person orgroup is running the Wall Street occupation.

So...can you please provide your source for this myserious "12 organizers"???

Because this isn't it.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Well, strangely enough, all the sudden I agree with you for the most part.

On everything except the system facilitating change from peoples angst.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
There are reasonable steps that could be taken to do that within the confines of the system, but rather than that, as I have said before, this has become everything from campaign finance reform, to transgender rights, to biofuels.

All in all, there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved, however it is not the responsibility of OWS to right injustice that has been allowed to flourish in the very system that is designed to foster equality. This has always been the responsibility of our policy makers, who obviously have failed and who are the system. You can't systematically fight the system itself by its own rules, its a losing battle. Nothing will change and things will continue getting worse and worse for more and more people.

This is why OWS seems incoherent, these issues are not their responsibility in the first place. The angst of OWS represents the awareness of the lack of responsibility of our federal government and corporate manipulation of it, more than anything else I think. I honestly have not heard anything about the rights of transgenders or biofuels, to me these are things that can be sorted out later or will fall into place.

There are reasonable steps yes, but at the top of them there is a locked door.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
As it relates to pressure groups, we just had out yesterday the folks from ACORN shredding documents and telling folks to get out of town to shield their involvement. Media Matters and Soros are partially behind this, organized labor is in there as a pressure group. This is a festival of pressure groups manipulating fools who think they are accomplishing something.

I don't think many people who support or attend OWS rallies really care about Soros or ACORN, if they did have anything to do with starting it I think the movement has been fully hijacked from them at this point. I don't see these names on any protest signs.

All in all, it is what it is, not what you call it. Even if OWS disappears, the problems will remain and another more aggressive protest movement may take root with enough time and frustration. Even if there is no protest movement, the frustration will inspire crimes of opportunity and further degrade our nation more than it already is by this.

You don't think everyone will start getting upset when order breaks down and our prisons are already filled to the brim, then you get the bill? We are already paying for more incarcerated "criminals" than the rest of the world put together.

I would reply about unions, but that may get us off topic.

reply to post by newcovenant


So you don't support them, but you support them....lol.

So I guess you are happy that their activism gave the GOP control of the house and reduced the majority in the Senate so that nothing is getting done at all....right???


And yes I would fear for my safety at an OWS event...because when idiots start rioting...all protestors are in danger. I wouldn't advise any female to sleep over at an occupy event...because it appears that protesting corporations makes men overly horny and they can't control themselves.

I don't like the Tea Party...I think they are delusional in their thinking, I think a lot of their energy is fueled by racism....but it is very sad to say that I would feel safer at a Tea Party rally than at a OWS rally.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Re: the Tea Party. You can hang with us brown folk. We promise they won't hurt you.

As for the OWS? You and I may be diametrically opposed in terms of ideology, but I think we can both agree with the potential dangers that espousing an OWS ideology would bring.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


One of them and the rest have yet to make themselves public.

www.rawstory.com...

reply to post by RSF77


To slightly amend to what you are saying :

We see that bringing the problems of nation to those in power is utterly useless and ineffecitve as you can't force a leopard to change it's spots once they've been issued to them.

We feel it is our right and are obligated in our resolve to fully take control and charge of the direction and take it from those leading us all into the slaughter via chaos.

Govt won't do it,corporations ain't going to do it so that leaves, We The People to take this back.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
And yes I would fear for my safety at an OWS event...because when idiots start rioting...all protestors are in danger. I wouldn't advise any female to sleep over at an occupy event...because it appears that protesting corporations makes men overly horny and they can't control themselves.

Same thing happens to our troops when they go to the desert. (Male and Female)

Or most any human in an uncomfortable, tense environment. Including prison, unfortunately.

Tis human nature.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by RSF77

 

To slightly amend to what you are saying :

We see that bringing the problems of nation to those in power is utterly useless and ineffecitve as you can't force a leopard to change it's spots once they've been issued to them.

We feel it is our right and are obligated in our resolve to fully take control and charge of the direction and take it from those leading us all into the slaughter via chaos.

Govt won't do it,corporations ain't going to do it so that leaves, We The People to take this back.

Exactly, it is our right and responsibility as Americans.

This nation was born and bleed on the ideas of freedom and equality. When these ideas are laughed at like they are today, it is our sole responsibility to correct the wrong, no one else will.

Just have to figure out how to get the most multicultural, multifaceted society in history to get along and unite.

Originally posted by RSF77

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
And yes I would fear for my safety at an OWS event...because when idiots start rioting...all protestors are in danger. I wouldn't advise any female to sleep over at an occupy event...because it appears that protesting corporations makes men overly horny and they can't control themselves.

Same thing happens to our troops when they go to the desert. (Male and Female)

Or most any human in an uncomfortable, tense environment. Including prison, unfortunately.

edit on 4-11-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)

Oh...ok...well I guess it's ok then that women are getting raped at OWS.


That is some horrible justification going on there.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Who said it was any kind of justification?

Just be aware it happens, in tense environments people resort to more primitive instincts. That doesn't mean they are justified in their actions.

Didn't we learn anything from the 60s?

There are women being raped all over the United States, I don't see what makes it so different if its at a protest rally or a back alley. Both are equally wrong, the protest will condemn the rape, the alley won't.

Either way, I was NOT trying to justify it and I'm not sure how you came to that.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


Iraq rings a bell - we've not received any deal on Iraqi oil.

The solar firms? Firstly, the reason they were not able to raise capital is due to several factors, foremost the absurd regulatory requirements placed on all firms to raise capital. Have a new business and want to float stock or bonds to raise money, the same way firms in the past used to? Cool, get yourself Sarbanes/Oxley, meaningless, feel good regulations that have done absolutely nothing but enrich the legal and accounting professions. Willing to do that? Why when the corporate tax rates in this country are among the highest in the world and the regulatory burdens outrageous. There is a reason why most new firms list on the London Exchange rather than the NYSE, something in and of itself that would have been unthinkable 15 years ago. Why? Because the haters of the free market, nanny state interventionists, driven by the left has implemented their "solutions on the economy.

Alternative energy is not a corporate boondoggle? GE dominates alternative energy having bought up all of the ENRON assets for pennies on the dollar. They have considerable juice. Wind? That is T. Boone Pickens child, looking to force government subsidies into the wind energy business to make himself a few more billions. How about Al Gore and his carbon credit brokerage that was looking to net him billions before the scam was brought to light. Alternative energy is not gaining traction because of big oil. Big oil is alternative energy. ExonMobile spend billions on alternative energy.

Banks make money taking firms public. They make money issuing and underwriting stock, providing advice, etc. Those outrageous bonuses you rail on given to investment bankers? The largest come from investment banking deals where they assist in the going public, purchase or sale of a firm. Alternative energy is not making traction because nobody wants to invest in it, nobody will buy the stock, nobody will buy the firms. Large firms are buying up patents, but thats small change. Solylendra's solar pannels were essentially being sold at a 30% negative margin. How does that work? Alternative energy will be a huge business when the business makes money and right now, it does not make money at scale.

As it pertains to corporate interests in war, I totally agree with you. The military industrial complex is alive and well and steps need to be taken to shut it down. All that has happened over the past 15 years, started by Bush pushed harder by Obama is to expand the military industrial complex into the realm of homeland security, but that is another thread all together.

Banks don't cause any of these problems. Banks put money into what makes money. When the government perverts the market place, banks do perverted things.

The root of the evils you speak of are caused by an over reaching government seeking to generate social outcomes by the manipulation of the free market, not by the banks

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


All rapes and attempted rapes are to be reported to law enforcement at once and not covered up. We officially, totally, completely, unequivocally condemn rapes as well as seek to have those elements exposed and expelled from the group and banned from participating in future events.

Lists should begin to be made up of who to watch our for. We are also on the lookout for pedophiles as we do encourage kids and the youth to participate and swear to keep them safe during their visit. We want it to be a fun and joyous experience for all who attend are are adamant in this stance.

reply to post by wagnificent


Let me get this straight, If we don't follow the OWS then we are "sheeple" but if we don't follow the government then we are "terrorist". See what's wrong with that picture? And we'll see how strong your movement is come a couple months when the tempature drops to the single digits.