RE: Every thread complaining about OWS

reply to post by wagnificent


I agree on all points, well said. I've been thinking about this a bit lately, and I've noticed that lots of the people that oppose occupy wall street really aren't doing anything better to fix the country. Thousands of Americans have gotten off of their asses, and come together to stand up to the corruption in the government, and the way the poor and middle class constantly get pooped on.

Criticizing the way they are going about their protests isn't helping. If you really want them to do things differently, don't tell us on here, don't tell people how you think they're so terrible or stupid, go and tell them. Go to your local protest, speak at the general assembly, and explain why you think a certain approach should be taken. The group will vote on consensus, and you will have your shot.

If you want the politicians to be targeted rather than the bankers, explain that. Do it at a local level, if they haven't already started planning such a program. That would be the best course of action for those people IMO.

Then there are those who generalize like there's no tommorow, and say things like "They're just a buncha....hippie communists! Those socialist Marxists just want to engage in class warfare!". Those people are just misinformed, and probably get most of their information from mainstream media coverage.

But some say that they've went there themselves, and experienced something terrible, and don't want to go back there because of it. Again, you can have an opportunity to propose a course of action, so you can try to solve whatever you think is bad with the campsite or the movement. Criticism can be good if it's used correctly. It can be taken into account, and problems can be solved.

If you just plain don't like the ideology behind the protests, and not their approach for accomplishing certain goals, well that's your problem. Obviously there are many issues being cited, ranging from health care to the tax code, but the thing that almost all of them have in common is the corruption within our government caused by big bankers and corporations using their wads of cash.

Health care, I mean that's just common sense to me that that be available to all. That's not why I'm out there protesting, but I would like for our country to have that. This might sound stupid, but just think of it analogous to another species of animals. Some wolf gets injured while hunting some prey, but he hasn't had enough takedowns to be granted healthcare to the other wolves, so he has to suffer. Lol, that's kind of a weird analogy, but thinking about it like that illustrates how inhuman that concept is for me.

reply to post by beezzer


I want stricter regulations on big banks, because the lack of regulations caused the financial collapse. I can't even comprehend how somebody could oppose that. Allowing corrupt big bankers to continue their practices, without being held accountable, which caused millions of people to lose their homes and jobs, is retarded IMO. If you don't believe that some of the big bankers are corrupt, then you're just uninformed.

Sure, tackling the problem at the government level is a great idea, and I believe that should be taken extremely seriously by the movement. But even if our government is completely purged of corruption, maintaining that "I want a small government so I disagree with them" belief will allow the bankers to continue doing their shady business practices which get them rich and screw over millions.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
I'll bite.

It is VERY immature of the OWS supporters to constantly say things along the lines of "It's obvious...if you don't support us, it means there is something WRONG with YOU."

*We're Sheeple.
*We're stupid.
*We're sitting in front of the computer in our undies eating doritos.
*We're shills.
*We're plants, sent in by TPTB to complain.
*We're obviously part of the 1%.
*We're greedy, and don't care about anyone.

This argument is a failure, and makes those of you making it look petty.

Can you not understand that I can disagree with you without being ANY of the things I listed above?????

Not really, not if you care about the country, where it's heading or the people in it.
I can't see how you can do it. I do think there must be something wrong with you.
Maybe not wrong - but not quite right..

If you only care about yourself and you are deaf and mute to the needs of others who are suffering around you then you CAN wholeheartedly disagree with OWS but they are not the ones who look petty.

If you think these OWS people are only peasants, poor, unemployed, rabble or pleebs - you are #1 mistaken and #2 showing a mindset that you are an exploiter who supports the hierarchy, waste and corporatism they are fighting. Everyone likes to think they are the elite. If you can look down on someone else you think YOU are doing alright. lol But that is not a system of government or of society that most people actually want or that works.

People want their privacy and freedom, not to watch them get taken away FOR ANY REASON. Protection or otherwise. And they certainly don't want their rights given to corporations!
People want basic rights to work, own a home, feed their families, pay their bills, maybe take a vacation and send their kids to school. They want some hope the education they sacrificed to pay for will actually prepare their children for a job one day and not end up leaving a second generation jobless and in debt.

You DO realize people can't do ANY of these things... and it is not their fault.

A country should not be set up so most of it's people fail.
If it is, you need to change it.

If it ends up being that way you will see more of what you had with the Tea Parties and now with OWS....
unless you live in communist country where you're not permitted to revolt.

And if you are against OWS, you are against the people and that's kind of dumb.
They are your neighbors.

You can say in one breath you do not even know what OWS is talking about, you do not know what they want and then say you disagree with them. That doesn't really make much sense though it happens a lot.

How do you disagree with people who are dissatisfied? How do you say it is wrong to be dissatisfied? I want to know...I mean unless you're in a better position than they are and you don't care about anyone BUT yourself?

I am not saying it's "bad" to be better off than the next guy - but it is un-American to be insensitive to the suffering and injustice heaped on others - hell we invade countries for it, and so it is particularly unflattering and disturbing to see such harsh criticism against those fighting for freedom and equality, in evidence by Americans toward Americans.

Originally posted by definity
reply to post by steveknows

 

no i am not dissagreeing with any of them infact i think what they are doing is good, what they are doing is for one reason and that one reason is "A positive change" so using the word "condeming" isnt too accurate. the question i pose is.

why are they going after people that make millions mabey a few billion when there are people making trillions?


but to me the idea of just turning up some where, and then hoping the whole global ecomonic status will change just becuase you shown presence we are talking about people that are addicted to a million/billion dollar lifestyles that own the federal reserve, they will not just turn around and go. Well i have been rumbled time to give it all up! to me seam optomistic to say the least.

not saying this situation is at all bad, personally i hate the whole money system it is courupt the only winners are the 1%. Buhddah said "money is the root of all evil" it turn good men it to gready pigs that will trample of loved ones and friends becuase they need to get there next fix.

The cause is noble and great the method that these people go about showing it to me isnt the greatest of ways, but none the least it is a noble and great cause like i said and i appreshiate them all for doing it, i have even been down to st pauls (london) last week to see it all

Ah sorry. This might be because I'm tired but you've got me confused. I was reponding to the OP www.abovetopsecret.com...

But you're responded to me like my post was aimed at you. I'm not understanding why.

reply to post by newcovenant

If you only care about yourself and you are deaf and mute to the needs of others who are suffering around you then you CAN wholeheartedly disagree with OWS but they are not the ones who look petty.

Again, you are making my point. If I disagree with OWS, then I only care about myself and I do not care about the suffering of those around me. Classic.

I do think that many of the people in the OWS movement have their heart in the right place. Many, not all. But I don't agree with the target of your rage. Start with the government, and I'll be right there beside you, as I was with the tea party.

The fact that I blame the government (rather than wall street, corporations, or the banks):
*doesn't mean I don't care
*doesn't mean that I think things are hunky-dory
*doesn't mean that I don't have a brain
*doesn't make me deaf and mute
*doesn't mean that I am petty.

If the OWS supporters would stop being so rude and calling everyone names who doesn't agree with EVERY one of the points made, perhaps you would attract more supporters.


I'm sure someone will be along in a moment telling me how stupid I am and that the banks, wall street, corporations, etc. all control the politicians.

I agree there is a lot of corruption. But I think we can ONLY make a difference by voting out the corrupt LAWMAKERS. We need to FIND people who are willing to NOT be bought and sold.

Fix the government corruption, fix the problem.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


Well that is one persons opinion and I really feel for you if you want to blame the government of by and for the people. Peoples rights concerning what the government does is the problem. Disassembling your government is like saying money is the problem so lets burn it.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl




The government/politicians are in the back pocket of the corporations & banks.


You don't target the puppet, you target the puppet master....

The organ grinder and not the monkey.


Once the hold has been released, then you can rehabilitate the monkey.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

Well that is one persons opinion and I really feel for you if you want to blame the government of by and for the people. Peoples rights concerning what the government does is the problem. Disassembling your government is like saying money is the problem so lets burn it.

Where did I say "disassemble the government"? Where did I say anything LIKE that???

I think this opinion is shared by many more than me. Government is the PROBLEM, so that is where the SOLUTION lies. Let's get out the career politicians who are only enriching THEMSELVES by passing laws that benefit their cronies.

Actually, what you said: it's "lilke saying money is the problem so let's burn it" is much more in line with some of the rhetoric I have heard from the OWS crowd.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


The problem is when people, in a transparent attempt to voice disagreement with something that is very hard to logically disagree with, use statements such as yours (I'm not trying to imply that you are guilty of this, since you clearly weren't trying to refute anything in your statement) about organization as an effective means to ignore the overriding issues.

It is impossible to argue that the laws regarding corporate influence of the political process in the U.S. have become softer in the last two decades.

It is impossible to argue that the role of money in that political process, while always a factor, has become increasingly so, and increasingly utilized for self-preservation and gain.

It is impossible to argue that this state of affairs has not had an adverse impact on the general population.

Funny thing though, is that I don't hear anti-OWS folk discussing those points or attempting to rethink them. I don't hear "the influence of corporations has had a positive impact" or "these problems would have happened even if corporations did not wield such power." Those would be logical, though difficult, approaches to the actual issues.

Instead,I hear "dirty hippies" and "disorganized" and "vandals." It's simple, it's moderately effective, and it's easy to repeat ad infinitum.

I've sunken to petty levels when trying to call attention to this in the past. Mainly, I get angry when faced with such a complete disregard for honest, logical discourse on the side of the debunkers (again, not referring to your post, but it was a perfect jumping off point.)

So, when angry OWS'ers call you "sheeple", which is the worst word in the language, with the possible exception of ginormous, I don't imagine that most are saying that if you don't agree with them, you're a moron. I think, like many of you, people get upset when the disagreement doesn't even stem from a single issue, and the counterarguments don't address them either. OWS makes a clear statement about the three positions I mentioned earlier, and while the movement does diverge from there depending on locale and personal agenda, any criticism of the movement as a whole has to involve a dispute of those three fundamental points, among others, to be an actual counterargument.

Is there an anti-OWS'er here who is willing to say that things are fine? Corporatism is cool? The Ron Paul media blackout is good for discourse? Buying elections is American?

It just appears that, out of a very real difficulty in addressing those issues, people resort to the disorganization clause. Basically, I don't have to respond to your message if I simply say it's incoherent over and over. This is highly frustrating to people who want to start a dialogue about things, and sometimes, in moments of weakness, they resort to name calling.

OWS wants you to disagree. They want you to start talking. That's the whole point! However, even though I'm sure the main perpetrators of this already know exactly what they're doing, simply saying "Ah HA! Some of them smoke weed in this youtube video, so the entire movement is invalid" or "they want Communism so I hate them" should be equally ridiculed by both sides of the actual argument. It isn't.

That ticks people off.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

The government/politicians are in the back pocket of the corporations & banks.


You don't target the puppet, you target the puppet master....

The organ grinder and not the monkey.


Once the hold has been released, then you can rehabilitate the monkey.

I knew that was coming!

Your analogy is flawed, because we are talking about government that is designed to be representative...and despite the paranoia, it STILL IS representative. There is a lot of talk about how TPTB "allow" us to vote for "certain chosen people". I think that is crap. YOU still have power at the ballot box. Vote these clowns out. No one could stop us if we banded together to do that.

If you vote out the career politicians, and send a clear message that we do NOT want politicians representing the best interests of those who "buy" their votes, then the "puppet masters" have no strings to pull.

WHY would you expect the bankers to act any differently than they have?????? I'm not sure how anyone thinks we possibly have the power to affect change with the bankers by camping out around their banks and disrupting their operations. Are they going to change their ways out of the goodness of their hearts? Are they going to say..."Wow! Thanks for telling me where I have gone wrong! Now I'm going to be much better!" That's a naive viewpoint. All the OWS movement is doing is alienating the bankers and also middle America, who doesn't like the way the message is being delivered.

Again, many of us do not support OWS because we think it should be OTG: "Occupy the Government".

reply to post by Jiggyfly




Fantastic post, spot on

reply to post by wagnificent


I hope that made you feel better.

The movement is a parody. The folks have no coherent message, are funded and supported by political pressure groups, are made up of every form of low-life in society and loaded with the political fringe.

The movement is irrelevant. Only the folks who are either living in those cities care about what is going on and in that sense only from the sense of how inconvenient these folks are making it. Regardless, for the past 20 years there has been a substantial trend away from cities - who cares what happens in Oakland - seriously? If the entire city of Oakland burned to the ground, outside of a 50 mile radius, it would be no different than OJ in the bronco for the VAST majority of people. Cities in this country have become so abstracted from life in the rest of the country, that most folks could care less what happens in them.

Go ahead and get romantic about this and think that it's going to lead to "change". It is irrelevant. These people are irrelevant and this time two years from now folks will be saying "remember that time a couple of years ago when all of those fools where living in the park? What was that all about anyway?"

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

Well that is one persons opinion and I really feel for you if you want to blame the government of by and for the people. Peoples rights concerning what the government does is the problem. Disassembling your government is like saying money is the problem so lets burn it.

But, money is one of the major problems. The human race is shattered and broken. We live on the other sides of invisible lines in the dirt. We spend our lives trying to collect paper money so we can pay for pollutant cars that will drive us to our meaningless jobs. Then we die. We might all die tomorrow, is the selfishness that has raped this planet worth it? Is it okay for me to sit here comfortably and happy in my apartment (though financially broke) while millions of PEOPLE like YOU or ME live in the streets and have nothing but scraps to eat every few days? It's f***ed up as hell and these world governments are leaches. Humans are parasites to the Earth but that doesn't mean we have to destroy for our own pleasure.

One day people might change, forget their hatred, their greed and start over again. Don't forget if there is a collapse of human civilization it will be entirely OUR fault. We are the reason for our suffering.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

Your analogy is flawed, because we are talking about government that is designed to be representative...and despite the paranoia, it STILL IS representative.

If you think that then I'm afraid it is you who is naive.

Many, many politicians get into politics with absolutely the right idea and to try and affect change.... sadly, it just doesn't happen.
For too long lobbyists, corporations and big business through funding and investments have literally owned politics... for this to stop, you must attack the source, not the infected.

If you vote out the career politicians, and send a clear message that we do NOT want politicians representing the best interests of those who "buy" their votes, then the "puppet masters" have no strings to pull.

Well you would need to get rid of 99% of them... and that just would not happen.
FIRST you need to sever the ties with business, change the campaign structure and somehow get the politicians to represent the people once again.

Because right now, they only have the interest of big business on their minds.

Again, many of us do not support OWS because we think it should be OTG: "Occupy the Government".

Do it then?

Why moan at other people who are out there actually doing something.

Why not OTG??

A two-pronged attack would be much more effective,

But no, It's easier to moan and point from the sidelines I guess.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


Great so instead of complaining about people trying to do something about all those issues why not get together with them and arrive at some solutions? This is your government and if it is not working out for you it is your patriotic obligation to speak up and change it.

Get rid of the politicians? Elect them out of office?
Wave enough money at them and they are ALL corruptible!

And BTW have you noticed you are the only one saying people are calling you names? You said "if only people wouldn't name call or something like that - people might join OWS" I don't see where this is a valid point. If left and right do not get together you will be living in the Incorporated US of A.


If you think corporations run the government now...

Neither the ideological right nor the traditional left have addressed this problem in much depth. There needs to be a somewhat nerdy "hard center" that does so. That might come out of the blogosphere, but it has not, so far. Netroots Nation is a politically and intellectually exciting policy-forum. But, it is not a technology trade-show. It is run by wannabe journalistic celebrities and advocrats. From a technology standpoint, they are just a web-centric cargo-cult, not like Comdex, back in the day.
Where was the SharePoint, Drupal, and WordPress "Smackdown!"? Where were the workshops on the VAN or Catalist. Debra Bowen was there, but she and the other election drones were mostly just whining about voters as clients, victims, ... whatever, not as political principals. There was no discussion of claims-based identity -- where particpatory democracy will live or die. No, corporations are just "a series of tubes", "stove-pipes", empty vessels, really, for self-serving and self-perpetuating elites. They are only "too powerful" because there are no countervailing military-patriotic organs and scarcely any civic-fraternal infrastructure today.
The only politically articulate or influential profession is lawyer.
So, we have neo-clerical rule in accord with neo-liberal doctrines shared by two parties, both of whose establishments have only one paradigm of government: collusive bargaining.

www.openleft.com...


I'll live in a Republic or a Democracy but not a Corporatocracy en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by blupblup


This is pathetic! Look at you guys! You both agree that our government is corrupt, and big bankers / corporate money is responsible, but you're sitting here arguing about the solution. I refer you to this excellent post:

It's funny seeing people argue over whether to go after the corporations "or" the government. Reminds me of two groups trying to decide how to slay a dragon. Group A says "go for the heart." Group B says, "no, go for the head." They spend time arguing rather than doing anything (or, worse, start fighting each other over their disagreement rather than slaying the dragon). Meanwhile the dragon grows bigger. Divide and conquer, much?

reply to post by Jiggyfly


Here's the thing...I'm not against the "main" points you made...however I disagree that those are the "main" points of OWS.

I've heard over and over that there is no "main" point from OWS...it is for everyone and anybody to voice their disent.

Here are some things that are impossible for OWS to argue that they aren't about.

- OWS IS advocating student loan forgiveness
- OWS IS advocating foreclosure moratoriums
- OWS IS advocating free college education
- OWS IS advocating guaranteed jobs for everyone
- OWS DOES have a problem with crime in their camps
- OWS DOES have a problem with turning violent (especially in Oakland)
- OWS DOESN'T have any type of plan on how to actually move forward with the problems they talk about

So no, I won't support an organization with the above issues. I am against the first four points, and I wouldn't support any organization with the last three issues.

I am "against" OWS by default because that is how OWS wants to play...I've been told many times that you are either with us or against us. OWS has turned me against them with that mentality.

OWS makes a clear statement about the three positions I mentioned earlier, and while the movement does diverge from there depending on locale and personal agenda, any criticism of the movement as a whole has to involve a dispute of those three fundamental points, among others, to be an actual counterargument.

It's not up to me to argue against any of their points...it's up to them to demonstrate the validity of their objective to convince me to support them. This is the "burden of proof" issue. I don't support OWS because they haven't proven to me that they are able to be a force for a positive outcome in my eyes. The position isn't that I must support OWS until I can prove them wrong...that is just not how it works. OWS needs to win my support...and they have done a very poor job (including your post) in doing that.

Like I said...I am "against" OWS because THEY have the mentality of "you are with us or against us".

Until THEY can convince ME that they have a clear goal and a clear path on how to acheive that goal...I can't support them. I don't blindly support mobs that have no clear direction, end goal, or path to get there.

The default position is that soemone doesn't support OWS, not that they automatically support them. I've heard your argument many times from OWSers...and it is one of the faults of their movement. They think you should support them until you can prove them wrong...that is like a religion telling you that you are a part of the church until you can prove them wrong.



So sorry...until OWS can get their act together...I will continue to state that the reasons I don't support them is because they lack organization, leadership, clear goals, and a clear action plan to acheive those goals. OWS has the work to do...not me.

reply to post by TupacShakur




As I said, target government too...protest them too.

I have no issue with that.

I don't see how that's pathetic or hilarious?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

So sorry...until OWS can get their act together...I will continue to state that the reasons I don't support them is because they lack organization, leadership, clear goals, and a clear action plan to acheive those goals. OWS has the work to do...not me.

Typical of someone who does not want to take part in achieving change but they sure won't mind reaping the benefits of that change. Expecting other people to take the hard knocks and fight for your freedom? Pathetic.

reply to post by newcovenant


So even though I disagree with some of their goals and motives....I should support them???

Should I go support the Tea Party as well? Do you support the Tea Party and go to their rallies?