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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by IAMIAM
"Ownership" makes perfect sense in a world with finite resources. Economists call a situation where no property rights exist the "tragedy of the commons." If you take a resource let everyone "own" it, the resource ends up getting inefficiently used. Everybody uses up the resource as much as possible and nobody invests in the resource. In the case of land, common pastures were overgrazed and poorly maintained. Privately owned pastures on the other hand, were not overgrazed. The owners of the private pastures maintained their land and put improvements on it.
Originally posted by acmpnsfal
reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
Ummmm, I feel like you are misrepresenting the gripes the Occupy movement has with regards to property rights. In a nutshell, they believe taxpayer money was used to bail out wall street when they should have failed due to imprudent business practices. Not only did they get money from the govt but the kept rewarding themselves with crazy bonuses and the like. Winners and losers were handpicked.....that is not capitalism. They just want the system to work, not change the system to reward those who promote common welfare.edit on 2-11-2011 by acmpnsfal because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by IAMIAM
hear hear!
"Economics" needs to be tossed in the back with phrenology, alchemy, astrology, and the lumineferous aether as far as "science" goes.
Just like the astrologers of old, the economists' one and only function is to tell the king the future that the king wants to hear.
Astrology - Today's Scorpio Horoscope
Here is your Today's Scorpio Horoscope Change is on the horizon -- change of the most major kind. The good news is that you'll be in charge of getting the show on the road, and that you'll meet absolutely no resistance whatsoever. Compatibility: Taurus Mood: Lucky Lucky Color: Navy Blue
Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by The Old American
But why should "your stuff" be "your stuff." Should "your stuff" belong to you because you worked hard to earn it? Or should society allow people like you to have "your stuff" in order to encourage you to go out and work hard, produce things, and contribute to the overall efficiency of the economy?
What if you were harming others with "your stuff." Should you be allowed to have a gas guzzling car if someone has to go off fight wars to get the gas you need for your car? Should you be allowed to have that gas guzzler if it is causing global warming?
Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by The Old American
Do you have the right to dump your insecticides into a stream that runs through your land, if that steam also runs through my parcel, further down, though?
Who owns the stream?
If you own a business, is it your right to knowingly produce a dangerous product? You own the plant, you own the supplies, and so on. Do I as the owner of one of hte finished products, have any right over you where injury to myself is concerned?
Your VCR is your VCR (and god, I feel old.) However there is still very much a thing known as "the commons." That some desperately try to pretend there isn't, doesn't change the reality of this fact.
Originally posted by The Old American
Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by The Old American
People like me? You mean people that have a clear understanding of what "ownership" means? If I buy a home, it's mine (after I pay off the mortgage, if there is one). "People like me" see that as my home, not some collective meeting place, like an ant hill.
You can't own land in this country. The best you can do is pay rent to the government for the privilege of living there. Don't pay your rent?(property taxes) Then you lose your home.
What if I have 20 acres of land, and on this land I raise all of my own food. Vegetables and meat. I sell enough to pay the property taxes, but otherwise I keep all that I produce. I'm not a drain on the economy, but neither am I contributing to it (I realize that the local economy has a net gain as I pay property taxes, but we'll ignore my property taxes as a contribution for this discussion).
Are you suggesting that I must contribute to the economy to continue to keep my property (land, home, cows, chickens, tractor, etc.)? Even though I'm not a drain on the economy? That's quite a special argument. For special people.
You can't ignore property taxes. I did and my little 1 acre lot is gone. You can't own land in this country.
What if you were harming others with "your stuff." Should you be allowed to have a gas guzzling car if someone has to go off fight wars to get the gas you need for your car? Should you be allowed to have that gas guzzler if it is causing global warming?
First of all, I wouldn't harm anyone. I take personal responsibility quite seriously. But what if it's not a gas guzzling car? Our government will still send our men and women to kill people for oil. But I need a mode of transportation, just like you do. I'm getting older and can't ride a bike to work anymore. Electric cars are not at the point where I can buy one right now, as there are no electric charging stations in my city. Not to mention the battery life is on them is not nearly up to par with gasoline engines.
Ownership of property was so important to our founders that they created a whole Amendment for the Bill of Rights for it. That Amendment doesn't just cover right leaning people like me, it covers liberals, too. I think that some people have lost focus on the fact that what's written in the Constitution isn't just for Republicans.
/TOA
What grinds my gears about property ownership is the fools that buy huge tracts of land, use them for "hunting" only and post signs every 20 feet saying "KEEP OUT". If it's land in the woods EVERYONE should have the right to walk through it. Not hunt, not camp, not dig ginseng, not to leave trash behind or cut down the trees. Merely to walk the woods. There are millions of acres around here. All woods and all posted. No houses, these are not people's homes, just land that you will go to jail for walking on. That is immoral, wrong and evil. We need a law to prevent such huge amounts of land from being cut off. There are two rivers around here that you can't fish on solely because every scrap of it's shore is posted farmland. Zero access. THAT should be a crime.