Why Vets Hate Kerry, by Vet Oliver North

Theres such a thing as going over and beyond the call of duty, and then theres the issue of committing heinous crimes just for a few lousy medals, which sometimes takes killing fellow humans, in order to be freed of a terrible war.

I wasnt in the vietnam war, I'm only 27, but I have known many vietnam vets who have mostly said that Vietnam was a fight for survival. Its hard to get a Nam vet to talk about specific experiences there.

Kerry "volunteered" to go to vietnam as a swift boat officer, only because at the time, it seemed to be one of the safest places in the war. When he got there, things changed. He wasnt happy. He wanted out.

check out this site, its a good site for analyzing the different sides on issues, and getting the truth out.

www.spinsanity.org

I'm hate to break it to you but I have 10 female friends who have told me who they are voting for, and only one of them said Kerry. And it wasnt me, LOL!

If the man cant make serious decisions for himself, why would I trust him making serious decisions for me? I'm a veteran, and my vote is for Bush.

Originally posted by koji_K
�����. but I think the stakes were lower. What North was a part of affected many, many people. What Clinton did was between him, his family, and those involved. ���

seeing as how north was found guilty of what clinton should have been i don't see how it was lower....he was the president, the head of law enforcement lying under oath in a court of law. if you say so though i'll just have to take your word for it.

Originally posted by keholmes

Originally posted by koji_K
�����. but I think the stakes were lower. What North was a part of affected many, many people. What Clinton did was between him, his family, and those involved. ���

seeing as how north was found guilty of what clinton should have been i don't see how it was lower....he was the president, the head of law enforcement lying under oath in a court of law. if you say so though i'll just have to take your word for it.

well, it may be a selfish thing, but i don't really care too much where clinton's penis was. however, aiding in the importation of crack onto our streets in the name of fighting communism does bother me, because it makes our crime problem worse and could one day affect me somehow.

-koji K.

koji_K
and as I said I�ll have to take your word�I�ve just always thought that corruption at the top was more important then street crime�I guess that would flow from the thought that if you can not trust those at the top to follow those rules then how can you possibly hope they will prosecute them faithfully.

Originally posted by RANT

And don't forget...if you disgree with them you're a "Girlie Man."

Whose a girly-man, a prep school CHEERLEADER or a COMBAT VETERAN?

Can ya'll guess who the CHEERLEADER was? That would be Georgina BUSH!

Girlyman...

Just for some balance.
My father served 2 tours in Vietnam as a Marine. He stayed in the military until his retirement 2 years ago. I consider him to be the most honorable patriotic man I have ever met.

I also know that growing up he had many problems with what happened in Vietnam. Not only medical but emotionally. While growing up I would ask him about the nightmares and other problems and was told to not worry about it. I asked my mother who said she did not know but that it was bad on so many of the men. These where the men that came to our home on weekends, went camping with my family and became members of our family.

Yesterday I asked my father about Kerry. I asked him what he thought of his testimony. He said to this day he thanks everyone who spoke against the war, they brought him home, they brought my unlce home and they helped us stop losing so many young men. I then asked him about Kerry's comments on the war and the attrocities. He just stared at me for a couple of minutes and then told me, "In war bad things happen. In a horribly run war, horrible things happen. He was only telling you what others said, because they knew".

The point is, my father is not a bad person, he is honorable and would defend this country with his life again. I believe him, I wish more of you would as well.

Originally posted by nativeokie
"In war bad things happen. In a horribly run war, horrible things happen. He was only telling you what others said, because they knew".

The point is, my father is not a bad person, he is honorable and would defend this country with his life again. I believe him, I wish more of you would as well.

I would be the last one to impugn your father's honor. I would point out that the men whose words John Kerry repeated have been proven to be frauds and liars. What I, and many other vets are so upset about is that Kerry gave the impression that "atrocities" were a way of life in Vietnam among US servicemen. This is not the case. The truth is that among the NVA and the Viet Cong atrocities were an accepted tactic to control the populace with fear.

I hope I never live to see an environment as brutal as Vietnam was when I was there, but I know the difference between atrocities and brutality. By John Kerry's standard, I am just as much a war criminal as he claimed to be, but the kicker is that John Kerry was much more careful about incriminating himself than he was in incriminating others. When Kerry claimed to have committed war crimes he did not mention a single action that was a war crime.

So the truth is that Kerry painted the war and the US miliatary with the same broad brush but used a very fine one indeed to describe his own actions. Vietnam was pretty poorly run, I agree, but the effort was as honorable and noble as any this nation has ever undertaken. And you can tell your dad I said so.

I just have a couple of questions. How long did your father serve and what was his rank when he retired?

[edit on 04/9/10 by GradyPhilpott]

Grady and Nativeokie, you two have something going here, but the challenge comes with finding middle ground. See, I agree with both of you. I realise that some very bad things really did happen in Vietnam, things that were unavoidable. That whole war was mostly a fight for survival. On both sides, too, so people start doing unheard of, or unkosher things to live. I understand that. OK so some stuff happened that was bad, and unavoidable, I just really think that accountability is still a key here. I mean, its hard for people to understand what vietnam vets went through, epecially those of us who were never out on firing lines. (I am a woman, so I simply worked at a nice little base in Florida, with no threat of getting killed. I have NO first hand experience with this, but am human and want some understanding of what those people went through) Most People dont like talking about it because I believe that most people either committed a war crime, or witnessed a comrade do so. When you do something really wrong, no matter what your reasons are, it is hard to admit it.

I am also very glad that we got the troops out of Vietnam. I almost think the same thing should happen in Iraq. It isnt quite as bad as Vietnam, yet, but its getting there fast, and if we keep it going for much longer, it will just mean more and more bloodshed.

I think, finally, that whatever Kerry heard about from people who claimed to know, could possibly be untrue. At least somewhat untrue.

I am not voting for Kerry. Even though he has really good intentions, I cant do it. A small good deed is better than a big intention any day. =)

Originally posted by Little red feather
�����������.I believe that most people either committed a war crime, or witnessed a comrade do so. ����..

����.

And I believe that Grady�s point is, if I may be so bold, is that the only reason you think that is because of Kerry. using some information that you admit was probably at least somewhat untrue. go to ice.he.net... and you will find debunking of what he used to smear the veterans.....notice the lack of veterans coming forth backing up those claims now.



[edit on 12-9-2004 by keholmes]

[edit on 12-9-2004 by keholmes]

I certainly dont worry about mr FAKERRY influencing my thinking. I have NEVER trusted the man.

Oh and one thing I really want to harp on a little is that he wasnt forced to go to Vietnam, he volunteered, but he only volunteered for the "skate" duty, only to find it to be one of the most dangerous places to find himself.

I really want to emphasise that I dont "defend" people who commit war crimes. I wish I could understand it all better, and I can see how defending your life can lead you to do terrible, unthinkable things, but I really believe in accountability.

I really hope that Bush stays in office...

Originally posted by Little red feather
Oh and one thing I really want to harp on a little is that he wasnt forced to go to Vietnam, he volunteered, but he only volunteered for the "skate" duty, only to find it to be one of the most dangerous places to find himself.

I don't believe that anyone serving in the US Navy at the time could have ever thought that Riverine duty was "skate" duty, unless you know something that I don't know. Frankly, I would have liked that duty, but not because it was "skate" duty.

Personally, I'm proud of John Kerry for stepping forward to expose what was really going on in Vietnam at that time. I served in Vietnam with the 1st Marine Air Wing, Marine Air Group 36 from June 1967 to July 1968, a period that included the Tet Offensive. My brother served with me at the same time with the 12th Marines (Artillery) in I Corps. This included 25 days of an intended 30 day period of duty at Gio Linh, truncated by 5 days because of the heavy casualties his unit had sustained there, viz: 27 killed and 83 wounded out of a 120 man battery. Vietnam, like Iraq was an illegal, immoral war and where this country failed was in not trying and executing war criminals for instigating it under false pretexts and then protracting it for personal financial gain. In Viet Nam the sister company of Halliburton Services, Brown and Root was awarded lucrative contracts too numerous to mention. Many were nothing but white elephants. At the time, Lady Bird Johnson was alleged to own 51 per cent of the stock in Brown and Root. Anyone who served in Vietnam, providing you were mentally alert, can rember all the RMK-BRJ [Roberts, Morris and Knutson, Brown Root and Jones] constructions camps and projects that were never ending....albeit at the expense of American Taxpayers and the outrageous and unnecessary sacrifice of innocent lives, Vietnamese as well as American.
In defense of John Kerry, and as a revelation of what was actually was going on let me share this: One personal aside should be of special interest to residents of Westminster, Colorado.
On January 31 1968 I was a Gun fire team leader over supernumeries at the 3 o'clock position at Phu Bai. Approximately a mile or so away to my half left, Abel Larry Kavanaugh of Westminster Colorado [albeight unknown to me at that time] was fighting for his life at the 10:00 o'clock position.
(North is always "Zero" or "360" degrees on a perimeter).
Three days later, as a courier for MAG-36, I was in a six-by heading up highway one to the Citadel in Hue City 12 miles away. Enroute we passed through a Marine Unit that was sweeping through the rice paddies and jungles toward Hue. One of my friends had just rotated back to Montana from 1st Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment ["One-One"]. I asked the driver to slow down, as he did, I asked a Marine that we were passing by, if his outfit was "One-One".He replied, "No, we relieved them last month this is "Gulf"". Two-One". This is Marine parlance for Company "G" [Gulf Company], Second Battalion First Marine Regiment. Later, I would learn that Kavanaugh was separated from his unit "G-2-1" that very evening [3Feb68] and spent what certainly had to have been two horrifying days and nights in the jungle before being captured two days later 5Februayr1968 and taken to a prison camp in North Viet Nam. He remained incarcerated until 17March1973. Immediately upon being released he and seven other enlisted men were accused of collaborating with the enemy by one Colonel (USAF) Ted Guy from San Antonio, Texas. With his 6 year daughter at his side, a child whom he had only gotten to see for a brief two week period before he went to Vietnam, he took his life on June 25, 1973. Kavanaugh, and I'm sure it's the same one came into my unit in Okinawa on November 1, 1966 [reporting unit code 29018] and left for
Vietnam with his best friend Carlisle two days after I did, on May 29, 1967.
All three of us had extened our tours and volunteered to fight in Vietnam for what we believed to be, at that time, a Great and Noble cause.I later heard but have never seen documented proof that Carlisle was killed the same day Kavanaugh was separated from his unit when US Air Force pilots dropped their bombs too short and hit friendly positions by mistake. For what it's worth, Out of a company of 528 men, Kavanaugh was one of the top 10. There wasn't a cowardly bone in his body. I'd have no qualms at all of walking up to some of the trash I've seen slouching around in American uniforms and spitting in their faces. In Vietnam a lot of fine Americans and even supporters from other countries who believed in what we have been told lost there lives because some of this same "cool scum" I'm alluding to were afraid the (ultimate victims) would be snitches or whistle-blowers. Many of the so called victims of "sniper-fire" had powder burns on the back of their heads.On March 3 1968, we had a helicopter shot down and thought one of our most popular and well liked pilots had been killed. His name was Bruce Archer. That same day Marine Major General R. E. Cushman Junior, later Commandant of the Marine Corps, but then the Commanding General of I Corps, had to send a letter out to all Marine units directing Commanders to ensure that the personal effects of slain Marines were sent back to their next of kin and loved ones...Why?
Because some of what was sent to Vietnam, especially rear echelon types were stripping the cadavers of their own slain countryman. This included but was not limited to stealing rings, watches, money, stereos, and anything else of value. This was Americans doing this to their own slain American countryman.
Many serving in the military at that time were given the option of going to prison for very serious crimes or being allowed to enter the military! Some even got to pick their own Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) with the assistance of their lawyers! Some of these same people are still in and have advanced in rank.
Those of us who enlisted or were drafted took "pot luck". Back to Lieutenant Archer, whom we thought had been killed...Body Not Recovered on Sunday 3March1968. A week later on 10March1968, we sat stunned listening to a Hanoi Hannah Broadcast and hearing the same Lieutenant Archer denouncing everything and everyone American for abandoning him in a field of fire. We remained sympathetic to Lieutenant Archer because those of us familiar with his capture were aware that when his chopper was shot down, the head of the pilot, a Major was severed when it went through the plexiglass. The headless torso fell against the unconscious Lieutenant Archer who was understandably covered in blood. When the gunner and crew chief jettisioned the hatches to rescue them, with automatic fire coming fom a tree line, they concluded that both men had been killed (understandably) and hurried for the rescue chopper.
As an enlisted man, Kavanaugh was fortunate to have been spared. Most enlisted men were summarily executed instead of being taken "North" to
the prison camps and Hanoi. Some of these executions of enlisted crew members were rendered with the victims having their hands and feet chopped off with machetes and then being turned loose to suffer and die.
Kavanaugh was a Lance Corporal pay grade e-3 making $103.00 a month plus $65.00 hostile fire pay when he was captured.
I wonder what Colonel Ted Guy of San Antonio was making and how many more benefits he and his family had enjoyed, did enjoy and continue to enjoy including his three daughters. A Colonel at that time probably made about $3,000.00 a month or more.
I didn't want any charges brought against Lieutenant Archer for his comments nor do I now. I'll be the first if I can to say that he was and [hopefully if he's still living] is a fine man. But not one charge was brought against any officer, instead eight enlisted men, lucky to have been spared in the first place because of their low rank, were singled out by one officer of unknown and questionable judgment. Not one officer spoke in their defense!!!!!
Getting back to the Kerry issue, my apologies for getting off the beaten track. As a Vietnam Veteran and as a veteran who has had the pleasure to have met and served under Colonel Bobby Bagley, the Commander of the Hanoi Hilton POW compound for seven years and whom I personally like and respect and I don't have any idea who he or anyone else here supports and I personally do not care. I'm supporting John Kerry I'm proud that he stepped forward when he did to expose the crimes and corruption that he did. Anything but that strutting gutless buffoon we now have in the White House. Oliver North can shove it.

Originally posted by JRex
I'm supporting John Kerry I'm proud that he stepped forward when he did to expose the crimes and corruption that he did. Anything but that strutting gutless buffoon we now have in the White House. Oliver North can shove it.

I fail to find anything in your post any justification for supporting Kerry's actions upon returning to the US, his reliance upon the testimomy of frauds for his testimony to congress, his consorting with the enemy and his show of lack of respect for his award by tossing something at the Capitol step which he claimed to ribbons or medals.

Naturally, as an 0811, I am very grateful for the performance of Marine Aviation and have much in common with your brother who served with 12th Marines.

I simply cannot and have no desire to forgive Kerry for his shameful action after the war, his support of the enemy and his being nearly solely respsonsible for the negative impression of the Vietnam veterans in the minds of the public.