Our natural religion from birth is ISLAM.

How can a man accept a meal that has been mingled with drit, bugs, or other foul matter? Do you think God allows whomever appears on earth to enter into an Immortal Union with Himself?

Did Christ accept all those who came to him? Not at all! The son is like the father.

Must we also accept and embrace the whole of mankind? Certainly not, no one does, and those who say they do are lying. It is not proper to do so, for this would abrogate the prinicpal of discernment and judgment, which is the first establishment of Wisdom.

God chooses 1 out of 100, 2 out of 10,000. Is it as you say? Or are you only jesting?

Arkaleus

The love religions
religion the consolation
generosity religion

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Do you think God allows whomever appears on earth to enter into an Immortal Union with Himself?

All babies enter the world in a "state of islam". Is this not what this thread is about? All men (and women) were once babies. All men (and women) are loved by God, for all can return from whence they came.

Did Christ accept all those who came to him? Not at all! The son is like the father.

Does not the shepard love all his sheep even those who are lost?

Edit: It is not that Christ did not accept them, but rather that they did not accept Him. They chose to remain lost, even though the shepard was in front of their faces.

Must we also accept and embrace the whole of mankind? Certainly not, no one does, and those who say they do are lying. It is not proper to do so, for this would abrogate the prinicpal of discernment and judgment, which is the first establishment of Wisdom.

Mark 12:29-31
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mat 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Have you heard these sayings?

Neighboring house.
Neighboring town.
Neighboring state.
Neighboring country.
Neighboring planet.
Neighboring solar system.
Neighboring Galaxy.

All of God's creation is one neighborhood.

God chooses 1 out of 100, 2 out of 10,000.

It is not God that chooses the person, but the person who chooses God.
This is the nature of free will.

Is it as you say? Or are you only jesting?

No jest.

Is it as I say? This I leave for you to decide.

I could quote scripture all day long concerning the teachings of love.

But, I leave you with the following:

Mat 7:7-8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:9-11
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mat 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As you say, no one does it.
As Jesus says, few there be that find it.

.



[Edited on 24-9-2004 by Raphael_UO]

I see.

You have made Christ into an impotent person, with no will of his own, or any judgment at all. You think he will eat anything you give him.

You have done this to each of us. Your doctrine is a submissive one, with no protection for us. We are not all equal beings here, we do not all share the same place. You are one of those who try to group all of humanity together. This to me is a horrid thought. Some of us cannot bear the association with all men and women.

You think that this is the true teaching of Jesus, that all of us are to be as one. All of us. This sir, is a foul thought, and will never reflect the truth. You cannot put the filthy with the pure. We are not all sinners, we are not all evil, some of us bear great torments because of the envy, evil and wickedness of men and women.

Foul is what you say. I will not share my place with the ignorant, nor will I give succor to the tomrnetors of saints, I will not share my table with the abusers of my light and the thieves of my strength. You think all of us are equally poor, equally ignorant, and all living in the shame of foulness. God forbid that the entire earth be corrupted. You know it is not like this. Limited and poor is your vision.

If you think God is universally accessable, you are greatly mistaken. If something is free to obtain at the whim of desire, then it would be found commonly among the people. But in truth, the Spirit of God is upon a tiny fraction of the men who ever lived. Whom I love I love unconditionally, and with great loyalty. Few are worthy of my love. Do you love as me?

"Many are called, few are chosen." Do not remove the prerogative from God. He invited all to receive him, but this was to fulfill the righteous will within him. He knew that not all men could receive him, except those brought forth BY THE FATHER.

You modern Christian, you think that it is easy to enter paradise. Perhaps Christ has made a place for you, but it is not the only place there is. Perhaps I am from a different place than you. Perhaps that is why we cannot agree. You cannot see my place, nor can you understand it.

Maybe that it why we cannot see eye to eye. You think your universe it all there is. You think you have learned completeness. You think you have interpreted things correctly, and are able to refute me because you think I am in error.

You modern protestant, individualism is foreign to you. You salvation requires another person who maintained his individuality. How are you able to even stand up by yourself? Your very core being is dependant. Is that better than the man able to stand up for himself, and entreat God as the prophets? Or does this thought make you fearful, and angry? WIll you hate me for saying that I require no permission?

I know what is in your heart, you will say that no man can stand up for himself, that ALL men require salvation. This is your ignorance and inexperience. Not all men require the salvation of Christ. You live on the mercy of others. Some do not require mercy, and these ones must be separated from you because of your envy.

It is a great disservice you give to the saints who overcame all things, because they cannot abide with the rest of you who do not. You say that you do not judge, and truly I hear do not hear one single example of discernment in your words, (you can only quote scripture), you are like a sheep being led. Perhaps that is the only way you can obtain for yourself. I will not deride it, but you should respect those who do not go that way.

You need to realize that not all of us are sheep. Some are lions. Some are men. Some are angels. We do not all belong in the same house, or herd. There is judgment and variation between us, this is the Glory of God. There are ranks and kingdoms, this is the Justice of God.

My knowledge is not equal to yours. I do not require the same as you. I grow my own, while you are fed by a spoon. The two ways are not equal. Do not berate me for running when you can only walk.

I think your words on "love" are just words. I do not think you actually apply them to your life. I thnk if you were to be closely examined you would be found to be a hypocrit, as are most men who claim Jesus.

I live exactly as I speak. I do not accept everyone, I do not bless everyone, But when I act it is 100% sincere. I do not pretend to be always correct. Somtimes I error because of the limit of my perceptions. But I hate what is worthy of hating, and love what is worthy of love, and I am strong in love. Perhaps I know love better than you, and you do not know it. Perhaps I know a good deal many things that you do not.

Those of who you refuse to confront evil are not equal to those who establish and demonstrate judgment against it. You cannot "accept" evil. You cannot "love" evil away. The corrupt will only be washed for a moment, and then they will turn again on you as soon as your blessing fades away from them. You cannot return those whom God has sent away.

Arkaleus.


[Edited on 24-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
You think he will eat anything you give him.

I think he can turn water into wine, so it would not matter what you gave him to eat.

You have done this to each of us. Your doctrine is a submissive one, with no protection for us. We are not all equal beings here, we do not all share the same place. You are one of those who try to group all of humanity together. This to me is a horrid thought. Some of us cannot bear the association with all men and women.

If we were all equal, there would be no discussion on this subject.
If we were not all loved equally, there would be no discussion on this subject.

You think that this is the true teaching of Jesus, that all of us are to be as one. All of us. This sir, is a foul thought, and will never reflect the truth. You cannot put the filthy with the pure. We are not all sinners, we are not all evil, some of us bear great torments because of the envy, evil and wickedness of men and women.

All came into this world as babies. All who enter the next world will enter as little children. Is this not what this thread is about?

Foul is what you say. I will not share my place with the ignorant, nor will I give succor to the tomrnetors of saints, I will not share my table with the abusers of my light and the thieves of my strength. You think all of us are equally poor, equally ignorant, and all living in the shame of foulness. God forbid that the entire earth be corrupted. You know it is not like this. Limited and poor is your vision.

Your place? Your table?

Enter the place of the Lord and sit at His table. There is room for all that choose Him.

If you think God is universally accessable, you are greatly mistaken. If something is free to obtain at the whim of desire, then it would be found commonly among the people. But in truth, the Spirit of God is upon a tiny fraction of the men who ever lived.

All enter the world in a "state of Islam". Is that not what this thread is about? That sounds not only common, but readily accessible. One need only return to the state from which they grew.

Whom I love I love unconditionally, and with great loyalty. Few are worthy of my love. Do you love as me?

So then your unconditional love has conditions?

You modern Christian, you think that it is easy to enter paradise. Perhaps Christ has made a place for you, but it is not the only place there is. Perhaps I am from a different place than you. Perhaps that is why we cannot agree. You cannot see my place, nor can you understand it.

Were you born from a woman into a "state of Islam"? Then we came from the same place.

Maybe that it why we cannot see eye to eye. You think your universe it all there is. You think you have learned completeness. You think you have interpreted things correctly, and are able to refute me because you think I am in error.

It is not my universe.

You modern protestant, individualism is foreign to you. You salvation requires another person who maintained his individuality. How are you able to even stand up by yourself? Your very core being is dependant. Is that better than the man able to stand up for himself, and entreat God as the prophets? Or does this thought make you fearful, and angry? WIll you hate me for saying that I require no permission?

I stand only with God.
My core is dependant only on God.
Better or worse I know not.
I have nothing to fear.
I have no reason to anger.
I do not hate you, though I am confused why you would require permission.

Have I not said the choice is yours to make? I seem to recall you saying one must be chosen, yours sounds more like permission than mine. Was it this to which you refered?

I know what is in your heart, you will say that no man can stand up for himself, that ALL men require salvation. This is your ignorance and inexperience. Not all men require the salvation of Christ. You live on the mercy of others. Some do not require mercy, and these ones must be separated from you because of your envy.

There is no requirement. Finding salvation is a choice. This is the nature of free will.

I live as long as God allows me to live.

I envy nothing because I do not desire naught but what I have.

It is a great disservice you give to the saints who overcame all things, because they cannot abide with the rest of you who do not. You say that you do not judge, and truly I hear do not hear one single example of discernment in your words, (you can only quote scripture), you are like a sheep being led. Perhaps that is the only way you can obtain for yourself. I will not deride it, but you should respect those who do not go that way.

Sheep being led?
I am led by God.

Did you not say "He knew that not all men could receive him, except those brought forth BY THE FATHER." ?

Is this not also being led?

You need to realize that not all of us are sheep. Some are lions. Some are men. Some are angels. We do not all belong in the same house, or herd. There is judgment and variation between us, this is the Glory of God. There are ranks and kingdoms, this is the Justice of God.

We all belong in the same house, it is our choice if we live there. Did we not all live in this house when we were born? Is this not what this thread is about?

God judges our choices.

My knowledge is not equal to yours. I do not require the same as you. I grow my own, while you are fed by a spoon. The two ways are not equal. Do not berate me for running when you can only walk.

I require nothing but God and what he provides. Why do you require more?

Why run? The journey has a beginning and an end. Whether you walk or run matters naught. It's the choices you make along the way that matters most.

I think your words on "love" are just words. I do not think you actually apply them to your life. I thnk if you were to be closely examined you would be found to be a hypocrit, as are most men who claim Jesus.

What knowledge do you base your thoughts? Do you know me? Whether I live by these words, or struggle to live by these words does not matter.

Do you think the words of Jesus on love were just words? Do you think he applied them to his liife? Do you think he was a hypocrit?

Do you think the words of Siddhartha Gautama were just words? Do you think he applied them to his life? Do you think he was a hypocrit?

I live exactly as I speak. I do not accept everyone, I do not bless everyone, But when I act it is 100% sincere. I do not pretend to be always correct. Somtimes I error because of the limit of my perceptions. But I hate what is worthy of hating, and love what is worthy of love, and I am strong in love. Perhaps I know love better than you, and you do not know it. Perhaps I know a good deal many things that you do not.

You speak of the limit of your perceptions but do you realize that judging the worth of something requires clarity of perception?

You speak of better love, but do you realize that love is constant and unconditional?

Those of who you refuse to confront evil are not equal to those who establish and demonstrate judgment against it. You cannot "accept" evil. You cannot "love" evil away. The corrupt will only be washed for a moment, and then they will turn again on you as soon as your blessing fades away from them. You cannot return those whom God has sent away.

God does not send away man. Man turns away from God.

Those who do not wish to learn, cannot be taught. But sometimes a lesson taught is understood. Then one who did not wish to be taught seeks understanding.

.

Your whole response seemed to give a picture of a human being TOTALLY dependant upon God.

Do human beings enjoy their children being totally dependant on them forever? Should he expect from us what human men would not from his own children? What kind of Father do you think He is? Does a WISE FATHER desire his son to be dependant upon him for life?

Raphael_UO, if you are a child, then speak as a child.

Forgive me, because I had to realize our differences. I should not continue this discussion with you. You are precisely correct in your philosophy - you are part of another group than myself.

My brothers and I are foreign to you. We come from an entirely different place.

We possess the active principal of God as our saving grace, we do not receive it as passive beings, or submissive beings. The forms of our worship are different.

You are him that receives it as a little child. Forgive me for speaking so harshly with you. I cannot measure you by the same meter.

If you are truly sincere in your seemingly complete submission, then this way will prove successful for you.

I on the other hand, am obliged to fight a little more and stand a little more firm.

I don't feel right speaking any more with you about this.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 24-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus


Raphael_UO, if you are a child, then speak as a child.


You are him that receives it as a little child. Forgive me for speaking so harshly with you. I cannot measure you by the same meter.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 24-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

I think you just made his point for him.

wait wait wait... did i just hear...

We possess the active principal of God as our saving grace, we do not receive it as passive beings, or submissive beings.

ark just state this? but did he not state this...

Islam means "Submission to the Divine Will".

what is going on here?

yeah i dont think so. Listen i may have a bias because i am a christian and all but i will say that i too dont care for bible beaters and thus i dont care too much for this either. Nor do i want to be apart of any religion that supresses woman like islam. And i know some say that Christianity is opressive to woman well being one myself i dont feel that it does. Then again im not about to let anyone push me around because of my gender. That being said Here's a hint for all of you who post these EXTREMLY long messages about how people should be apart of your religion, Nobody in their right mind is going to change their whole lifestyle because someone who they have never met wrote a page in a half to them about how they found the right religion. I say show them dont tell them. Live your life accordingly and that will catch someones attention more than a long belief pounding post on a conspiracy site. I know it seems wierd that a christian would say this and i dont consider myself liberal or anything but it just gets on my nerves. I think Christianity is right, you think islam is right, and athiests think they are right. They obviously cant all be right, and everyone understands that. No islamic person is going to be able to convert me just on the mere fact that I DONT EVEN KNOW YOU, just as i dont expect to be able to convert an athiest or you by writing a post screaming im right and you're wrong. because in the end you sound like an arrogant jackass. and that my friends is why religious people have such a bad reputation for being fanatical and judgemental. of course us people of religion want to spread the word of God. I just think there are better and more respectful ways of doing it. ok ive ranted long enough. i hope my message makes sense.



Regards,
DigitalGrl

[Edited on 29-9-2004 by DigitalGrl]

No one is born into religion
the person accepts the religion.

Our natural religion from birth is NO RELIGION. Religion is man made.
What is natural is a desire to believe that all this has meaning .. that someone else
stronger and wiser than us is in charge. The natural inclination is to believe in a God.
But no ... we have no natural religion ... and Islam absolutely isn't 'natural'.