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Society, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing

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posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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The two major protests regarding the economy and the political system in our country; The Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street, both raise questions to corruption and issues within the system, but both fail to hit on the main problem: Society.

The Tea Party's solution is to have Government stand aside, that corrupt businesses like the major banks would eventually collapse due to their practices. This is true, but unfortunately they would take our economy down with them, the entire World would be tossed upside down.

OWS solution is to have the Government regulate further, and to tax excessive pay. The idea being that further regulation would prevent corrupt practices and taxing executives "pay their fair share". Downside is that banks own the government outright, having the government regulate them is essentially the same as self regulation.. and taxing pay has never been an effective way of limiting pay. They'd simply pay more taxes, still living above the masses.

But the key issue to me anyways is not even an issue with corrupt government or the level or pay. It has to do with the attitudes of everyone in society. People expect bankers and corporate executives to be held to a higher standard, meanwhile our morally bankrupt society shows the exact same mentality that those on the top do, yet want to hold them to that higher standard. The rich are rich, there will always be wealthy people, and pay is an incentive to success. But there is a difference between people who strive for success while doing so with the mentality of self success and worrying about the bottom line, and those that strive to make their business a benefit to society as a whole and their employees.

However, just as a business that strives for the betterment of society and it's employees before obscene profit, there is a difference between a person that works extremely hard, juggling two jobs to put food on their kids plate and provide a liveable environment, yet still takes time to help with schoolwork and volunteer; and someone who doesn't work, doesn't live as an example to their kids, spends excess money on frivolousness items while living off the State.

There is also a difference how we treat these two demographics, we demonize the self important executive who takes pay raises and bonuses as he lays off thousands of people, and we demand MORE free benefits for those that live off the government not trying to better themselves in anyway.

1% controls most of the wealth. 47% consume 90% of the social benefits without paying taxes. That leaves 52% to pay for everyone else, the median income for this group being $40k/year.

The solution is very simple. Society, as a whole, needs a massive revamping of our morals and ethics. We need a sense of right and wrong, we need a sense that we are responsible for our actions, that we should strive in life and in business to do good works. Not because Government says so, but because it's the right thing to do. Living off the Government should be frowned upon, just as taking bonuses and laying people off, or not offering benefits to employees. And ultimately it comes down to us as individuals to impress upon ourselves and our children the morals they would need to make informed choices. If a business is violating what you deem to be important ethics that you hold dear.. Don't give them business. A perfect example is stop shopping at Wal Mart, the richest family in the World (Walton family holds more corporate assets than Goldman Sachs) that doesn't offer any benefits to their minimum wage employees. Or Nike who employs slaves to sell at four digit mark ups here in the States. And likewise, don't support the enabling of the professional poor, who not just take but demand that others pay their way through life.

And when it comes to politicians it couldn't be anymore clearer than it already is. We despise our politicians, our own Congress doesn't even have a 20% approval rating.. and yet we vote for them anyways? Because they play for the team we think we need to vote for. Making an informed vote outside of the two party system is the surest way to exact REAL change in this country. Right now the politicians we elect are the equivalent to the twits we always elected for our school governments. Self righteous, pompous asshats. But we still elect them, knowing what they are. We deliberately elect those in that 1% to represent us, even though they don't live the lifestyle we do. We elect officials after a term where they serve only corporate interest.. we give them no accountability. We can't expect changes to our political system when we don't hold them accountable.

Demanding an end to Wall Street or to "Eat The Rich!" is not a solution to our problem, it's only a symptom. In a morally just society it wouldn't have been an issue to begin with, if we made informed votes and informed purchases. Only we can hold these people accountable, we can cut off their livelihoods for their immoral actions, and we don't need a bigger and more powerful government to do it.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I've been trying to tell people that for a while now. No one listens. Maybe they'll listen to you. Well said.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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WOW some logic for a change, thank you.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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Nicely done and I basically agree. However, I don't think we can avoid turning the nation upside down in order to turn back the clock so-to-speak.

Less government is--imo--the way to go but to think we can do it without becoming self-sufficient and tightening our belts is magical thinking.

Somehow the American dream became about prosperity instead of freedoms. We, most of us, ARE responsible for the mess we're in because we accepted it and left the governing up to ambitious sociopaths.

I think that's what subconsciously holds some folk back from supporting Ron Paul: They know that REAL change would mean sacrifice and they hope the 'crash' that's inevitable without such change won't happen in their lifetime.

Again: Nicely written and thought-provoking.

edit on 30-10-2011 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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That is true of course, society needs a kick in the pants.
They also need to tax big business again too though, its a mixture of everything that is making this whole thing messed up, its not just society, and its not just the wealthy elite (and we know the 'elite'), as we see their marks all over the world.

Guess the Sumerian god Enki got what he wanted, essentially a slave race. And it is really true, while society is crumbling, it was engineered to crumble from the very beginning.

And tax money goes to paying federal loan interest, for the most part. I think it was like 8% of tax revenue actually goes back to the country. I forget where i saw that, but i mean c'mon. The debt system is a form of slavery that needs to be abolished.

Still, good logic. Society needs a kick in the pants, but i guess we wont see that until the first nuke drops.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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So are you saying that we should demonize those who have fallen on hard times and have to live off the government because they can't find a job just like people who lie and cheat and steal and screw everybody else in the country over?

I'm in the 43% who don't wind up paying federal taxes (it's total b.s. that I don't pay taxes at all as has been explained to you people ad-nauseum), and I don't take a dime of government welfare.

A lot of people on the government dime have jobs and need some extra help. More and more these days, people who have paid into the system their entire lives have to take advantage of those safety nets.

Yes, there are people who take advantage of it, but to make sweeping generalizations is really quite ignorant of what's actually going on in the world.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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IMO, there are commonalities amidst both sides, groups, movements, etc ... At Their Core.

I think they just each need to first find and then further consolidate, define and further refine the same.

If that were to happen on any significant scale ... then the peoples of the US might actually see some change to be believed in.


you don't save a dying tree by lopping off branches and the like. you start at the root - promote new growth.




edit on 10/30/2011 by 12m8keall2c because: added: - promote new growth.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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I agree with you, my friend! I believe that if society is fixed as a whole, then there is a whole plethora of other things that will change. We can blame everybody and everything for our mistakes and flaws, but what it comes down to is personal responsibility and accountability. When a society starts focusing on a little more on morality, accountability, and true personal change, then our institutions will change as a result of that. You have to go to the heart of the problem to cure what ails you, otherwise you are just treating the symptoms and not dealing with the actual problem. Thank you for your thread, and peace to you!



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
So are you saying that we should demonize those who have fallen on hard times and have to live off the government because they can't find a job just like people who lie and cheat and steal and screw everybody else in the country over?

I'm in the 43% who don't wind up paying federal taxes (it's total b.s. that I don't pay taxes at all as has been explained to you people ad-nauseum), and I don't take a dime of government welfare.

A lot of people on the government dime have jobs and need some extra help. More and more these days, people who have paid into the system their entire lives have to take advantage of those safety nets.

Yes, there are people who take advantage of it, but to make sweeping generalizations is really quite ignorant of what's actually going on in the world.


I agree that most of them are not taking advantage at all, they need said government welfare or whatever you might call it, in order to survive, there are some that take advantage, but they are in the minority, same with homeless people. People think 'homeless people' are crazy, but only



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


That's true.. and that's why I'm not entirely against the OWS movement, because it, like the Tea Party, is at least trying to do something. The problem is .. if we hit the "reset button" on society, government and the economy .... what will it turn into? There is no general consensus as to what needs to change, how to change it etc. I personally could never support a more socialist form of government because it's fundamentally wrong to me. Likewise there are many who find a very minimalistic government to be fundamentally wrong. There are simply to many variances in our society of what society even should be..

Though I do agree, any significant change to our very way of acting, thinking and living will not occur without some form of "reset", and sadly I don't see that ending well for us at all..



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 




Right now the politicians we elect are the equivalent to the twits we always elected for our school governments. Self righteous, pompous asshats. But we still elect them, knowing what they are.




In a morally just society it wouldn't have been an issue to begin with, if we made informed votes and informed purchases. Only we can hold these people accountable, we can cut off their livelihoods for their immoral actions, and we don't need a bigger and more powerful government to do it.


its about time someone gets it.
edit on 30-10-2011 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck
 


I believe we should encourage people who live off the government to not do so. There may not be something wrong with someone "falling on hard times" and using the Government as a temporary crutch .. there is, imo, a major problem with literally living off the government with no intention to change your lifestyle. Yes, I think we as a society should consider living off the government to be "wrong", we should always encourage self betterment, not self defeat! I'd rather give the poor free education or trade training than food stamps, government housing and medicaid.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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My opinion is this.

A system that assumes everyone is the same, has the same opportunities in life, the same wiring in their way to think and social abilities will always create outcasts. People who dont appeal to the norm, people who dont think the same, who dont have the same opportunities the "rest" of us have. What will we do with the people who are chronically sick, or the people who newer understood what being social is?

In thw world we are in today we will always have the outcasts from society who didnt "fit" in. What will we do with them? If we no longer will suffer people who depend on the system what should be done?

I myself would want to change society to a more network based system. Instead of the puramid of power we have now we have many small societys connected together. Think of every home as a server on the internet.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:52 PM
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I just think certain things should be a human right.
Like access to proper nourishment
A warm place to live
Clean, fresh water.

But there is no profit in that, see? Just like there is no profit in natural medicine, and there is no profit in peace. No profit in switching from oil to something that doesnt wreck the environment. No profit in building a more reliable way of providing food.

We have the tech to fix all of these things. But all the people at the top see is dollar signs. Just like the e-cat, i dont see it going anywhere, because big oil won't let it.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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I more or less agree with your assessment as to the root of the problem.

However I do not agree we are asking wall street to live up to higher standards than the rest of us. In fact I would say it is exactly the opposite. They are getting away with far more than the average citizen ever could, due to the way they have bribed their regulators and congress.

Say you started a business selling cars that you claimed were brand new, but actually were built using engines and transmissions from 10 year old Russian salvage vehicles, and say you managed to sell a hundred of these vehicles at a 10,000 dollar profit each. Do you think you would go to prison for fraud when it was found out - or at least had all your asset's seized? I am very confident you would.

The wall street investment banks have done the equivalent a million times over with the sales of knowingly flawed mortgage backed securities, but not one firm or executive has got so much as a slap on the wrist.

Wall street is an industry that literally produces nothing yet they have by far the highest salaries for any industry in the US. Their entire goal is to move other people's money around and take as much of a cut for doing next to nothing as possible. They have long since gone past what is legal in this regard and have now moved into the illegal in a chase for ever higher bonuses. This is plain wrong, they take productive minds and remove them from creating new products and businesses and get them involved in basically organized theft because that is where the most money is.

Really all I want is for their crimes to be prosecuted, if that is to much to ask when we are talking about trillions of dollars of potential loss that the taxpayers are responsible for, well we are completely screwed.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Well, how do you think one would feel about going to any trade school or free education, if they haven't eaten in three days? How are they supposed to go there and feel good about themselves if they haven't slept or showered in three days because they can't pay rent or housing costs? They are supposed to sleep on the street, go hungry, and stink to high heaven and then go to some government crap educational thing? (Public education is crap). Yeah makes perfect sense to me.


But it's ok to give all this stuff to illegal immigrants and starving Africans(mean to clarify: As in foreign Aid) right?


I would rather my tax dollars be helping American legal citizens then going to illegal immigrants to send their income back to Mexico and to foreign aid, let those people live as mentioned above and take care of our own, it should be MY choice if I want to send money to Africa or Sponser a Immigrant family (so they can come in legally) It should not be taken from me and sent there. Or to their pockets while I watch myself and neighbors suffer and still have to put out money to support other countries and "insurgents" in our own country!!!
edit on 30-10-2011 by ldyserenity because: to add & clarification



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by Veritas1
 


unfortunately, we need decent paying jobs, or lower cost of living, in order to be responsible....people can preach about "accountability" and responsibility all they want. but, I've seen the good paying jobs get shipped out never to return too many times, the people who held those jobs were being responsible, they were holding themselves accountable....they had familiies, they were supporting just fine. when they finally got their next job, it earned nowhere close to what it did, and well, they were left holding the bag....
heck, my husband was earning more in the 80's than he has since then!!

one family I knew, well, most of the family, and I am talking about father, his sons, and grandchildren even were ermployed mainly by Nestle's...they raised chickens, they had a big garden...were pretty much self sufficient...
they also had diabetes that ran heavily in their family...
the last I heard, on of the brothers had given up, he couldn't afford the medical expenses and the insulin,.....he wasn't taking it...


Personally, I am tired of hearing how us pions should be held accountable for our actions, even actions that may have been taken decades ago, and be responsible.....when the big fishes are held accountable for blowing the economy to crap, when they stop taking advantage of the near slave labor (in some cases slave labor) of india and china, and bring their manufacturing back home, well, then maybe the pions can return to being accountable and responsible!!! the way has to be pave for many of them!
and, by the way, if you are talking about women, being responsible and accountable, and are one of those christian right people....
your values are a little screwed up!!! you can't expect women to be home tending your children, out of the workforce, and yet, expect them to be "responsible" for their own finances is something goes wrong within the marriage and, that is a big part of the problem, half of society wants to live the old way, the other half wants to live more modern.
edit on 30-10-2011 by dawnstar because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 07:13 PM
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Couldn't agree more! And to add my own two cents--

I am one who does believe that society is going to need to crash in order for the real kind of change that we need to happen. I believe that the federal government needs to get out the way and stick to what they're meant for -- protecting our borders -- and no, I don't demonize those who do need the safety net of welfare. My daughter has state-provided medical insurance, and I have none.
The problem is both government and society. The more government has grown and the more services it has provided, the more we as a society (this is a generalization, I don't mean everyone) has forgotten what COMMUNITY means. There was a time in history when if a family couldn't afford food for awhile, or lost their house, etc., their community would automatically take them in, watch their children for free (those who stayed at home with children) so the other parents could work more to make ends meet, share their food, etc. Because everyone goes through hard times, and the favor can always be returned at some point.
Now, (many) people wouldn't consider letting their neighbors who might have lost their homes stay with them for awhile, because they like their peace and quiet. Being a member of a solid community seems like a giant imposition.

So, yes. I do think that power corrupts, and I believe that the more government there is, the more corruption there will be, no matter what, as a direct correlation. I don't believe that more regulations with ever, ever, ever solve the problems. I also don't believe that shrinking government, tightening up on welfare, and those who are lucky enough to be doing well just gloating and locking their doors to keep out the strays is the answer either.

If we are going to survive and shrive as a species, something like this will have to happen: Government shrinks, people remember how to take care of each other. I don't know which will come first, but we can't have true community AND big government. It just doesn't work that way. As soon as people start thinking their government will protect their neighbors should they have trouble and therefor they don't have to be prepared to lend a hand to their neighbor, government grows, taxes go up, AND society loses its heart.

As government shrinks, people will panic. People will be angry at the world, they will demand their government, they will curse anyone who called for small government and call them inhumane, heartless, greedy. There will be more starving people, more people without a home. It will be a very sad sight to see.

And then slowly people will figure out that they have power, and we will learn to care for each other and not need the government. We are socialized early not to help others, and not to trust others who claim to want to help us. We keep to ourselves, and if we want to help the less fortunate, writing a check is enough.

As we re-discover the meaning of community, taking the power from the government and rise up as a species, I would bet my life that we reach a new level of fulfillment, and crime/depression/apathy levels will drop like a rock.

So what's it going to be, folks -- will we put our trust (and money) in the government to save the struggling and alienate ourselves further and further until we collapse completely, or will we make the sacrifices needed to come together and thrive-- knowing the transition will be painful?

Just my opinion. Sorry for the novel -- I've been meaning to say that for awhile.



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 07:16 PM
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Funny how the Obama administration cheer on the FLEA Party, and at the same time cheer when the DOW goes up 300 points in a day.

Who's side are they really on?



posted on Oct, 30 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck


There is also a difference how we treat these two demographics, we demonize the self important executive who takes pay raises and bonuses as he lays off thousands of people, and we demand MORE free benefits for those that live off the government not trying to better themselves in anyway.




Rockpuck, I have always respected your comprehension of the various financial issues that appear on these boards. Truth to tell, many have been the times that seeing your name associated with a thread has been the deciding factor in my decision to read said thread or not.

However, I think you might have the above observation backwards.


As I see it, one of the biggest problems our society faces is that we demonize those who live off (government) handouts (whether they do so by choice or by circumstance; we do not differentiate) and we Glorify the greedy.


We have become all but mezmerized by the "Rich and Famous".

We (sometimes) secretly (sometimes, not) envy the Rich to the point of going to virtually any self-degrading extreme to become One of Them!

Can anyone argue that the current poularity of so-called "Reality TV" shows is not the direct result of our quest to become "Famous" for something; and thus gain an opportunity to stretch our 15 minutes of fame into a lifetime of riches?

Isn't it the dream of virtually every YouTube poster to have the video garnering the greatest number of "hits" (views); to ultimately "Go Viral" and garner the Fame (and possible riches) that "honor" entails?

We once idolized Heroes. We now worship "Celebraties".

You are right, my friend, in that it is not the "System" that we need to fix, but the Society that created the system.


Unfortunately, to fix the Society, we must first fix ourselves, and to do That we must first admit that we, ourselves, need to be fixed.


Good luck selling that meme!


We have been too long schooled that to admit a flaw is to admit a failure. To admit failure is to admit weakness. And to admit weakness is to declare one's self vulnerable,


Because, as we have been taught, the weak exist only for the pleasure and convenience of the Strong




edit on 30-10-2011 by Bhadhidar because: Grammar




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