there is one thing i don't understand... it is the aethists who ask if you were to never hear of religion, would you believe in it... the answer is YES! Humanity, as a whole, would also re-establish religions. Why? not because people are 'weak' or 'scared' to die, but because there IS a God, and you can tell that there is. Even the aethists deep down know this, yet they prove time and time again they are the one's who are weak. My question to the Aethists is why do you continue to deny the obvious. And don't say it isn't obvious because you can't see it, or there is no proof of it. There is no proof of your name, you can't see your name, but do you know you have a name... YES! Stop with all this madness, the worst religion for the world is Aethism. Why? it provides no morals, no values, and worst of all you, unlike the sites motto, are ignorant. QUITE IGNORING WHATS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. I can't ask you to change based on what i am saying, all i can truly ask is for you to just consider, for one fraction of a second, the possibility that YOU ARE WRONG!

Also, I am sick of this Jesus bashing, i read it all over the site. HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. Whether he was God or wasn't. I guess i have to explain this first, i was reading a thread on the double suicide bombings in Isreal, and there was a link to a thread on this board that talked about God promising the Jews world domination. In there was one specific person claiming that Jesus not only HATED the Jews, but refused to teach them or something. He also claimed that Jesus taught others only to preach to the lost Gentiles, and that Jesus had a hostile take over of a city... my point is THAT IS ALL FALSE! Just because you as 1 person, out of EVERYONE i have ever talked to, EVER, believe this, doesn't make it any closer to fact than Santa Clause flying around delivering presents on Christmas.

Lastly, There is no 1 world religion for this reason.... THERE IS NO ONE WORLD ANYTHING! You could have God come down right now and tell us whats up, and not everyone would agree. Everyone is different, somethings are harder to believe, oh and GW is not the Anti-Christ, he has to be loved, and he really isn't loved.

I am tired im goin to bed

Back off your horse people who dont take religon to heart have more morals. I cant speake for others for but I dont use the bible or any other lame exuse to beat up on gays and gay marriage. I have never been in a church I would make a bet that any number of criminals in jail right now believe in god wow what a load of good it did society. If people want to read the bible and pray thats fine with me but to say that Aethists dont have any morals is ludicrous .
Aethists till I die.

I appreciate your point of view, Ryanp5555, & I can give your religion every tolerance, whichever faith you adhere to - so why can't people like you show the same courtesy & tolerance?

No atheist/pagan/wiccan/whatever, has ever tried to push their views on to me, not once, not ever. But I've sure had a lot of opinions just like yours almost rammed down my throat. I'm more agnostic than atheist, but that's a moot point here. The point is - how dare you say that I have no moral feelings? Just because I don't agree with YOUR views?

That's called intolerance, my friend, ahd no amount of religion will change that with the attitude you have. Don't preach at me - learn some tolerance instead - the world will be a better place for it.

I could deal with your post until here

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
oh and GW is not the Anti-Christ, he has to be loved, and he really isn't loved.

Then the fires within roared, and madness took over.

I was watching a news report last night about how GW is using Christianity as a vote puller. Is this were you coming from? It is said by some Christians that the effect that GW is having on Christianity will last for a century, as people who are Christian will be viewed as extreme right-wingers. GW is doing nothing for your faith and shouldn’t even be using religion in politics. GW is a bad man, from a very screwed up background.

As to your references regarding the thread to do with Jews taking over the world you should look further into the history of the bible, i think, as long as you don’t decide to stay ignorant, you will find there was a lot of stuff written out of the bible. It is commendably discussed here at ats. Let the truth be known. Yahshua is the name of the one you refer to as Jesus.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
My question to the Aethists is why do you continue to deny the obvious. And don't say it isn't obvious because you can't see it, or there is no proof of it. There is no proof of your name, you can't see your name, but do you know you have a name...

If the definition of name is an identification string assigned to a person by the government, then there is proof of your name. Your passport contains your name, the government documents contain your name and other people use your name.

If your definition of god is an intelligent omniscient omnipotent benevolent being external of our world, then there is no evidence for such an god. No philosophical argument really works and even if those worked, they wouldn't prove the intelligent omniscient omnipotent benevolent part. Intelligent design, with its crappy arguments, only proves a intelligent being, not the omniscient omnipotent benevolent external to the world part. Souls probably don't exist either.

the worst religion for the world is Aethism. Why? it provides no morals, no values, and worst of all you, unlike the sites motto, are ignorant.

Atheism has no morals, no values and promotes ignorance. Apart from the fact that atheism is a stance concerning the existence of gods and therefore doesn't have anything to do with morals and values, how did you get that idea? Because an hypothetical god is not involved with the decision, every decision is wrong. Russell and secular humanists have written entire books on the matter of morality without a god. And the reason why you can now divorce, why you can't beat up your kids or wife, why you can have sex before marriage is that secular philosophers and politicians fought for freedom from the outdated dogma's of religion. I agree with Russell that every dogmatic system will fail and cause unhappiness. We must be maybe to question our ideas and change them when the evidence warrents. Religion does not allow for this.

I can't ask you to change based on what i am saying, all i can truly ask is for you to just consider, for one fraction of a second, the possibility that YOU ARE WRONG!

I have considered it, and have reached the conclusion that with all that we know, there is probably no god and there is probably also no need to believe in a god.

first off, let me say that when i said aethists are ignorant i meant they are ignoring god, not ignorant towards everything else. The morale concept was broght on by this... if two people who had no relation to this society in anyway were brought up in two same but different environments, one was brought up through religion, the other was brought up being told there is nothing but this life... which do you think would have the greater idea of morals. About the Bush thing, you can't say to me here is a website that must mean he is loved by everyone. A person in this very post called Bush a very evil man, why? Who knows... if you wanna get into a political argument, then tell me, what has Bush done that is soooo terrible, liberated Iraq, and Afghanistan? or was it 9-11 which wasn't his fault... or was it the economy dropping, oh wait that started with clinton, and couldn't be helped due to companies such as enron and k-mart. He didn't lie to us about the nuclear weapons, he was told that they had it by a lot of reliable resources... oh yeah and he also put weapon inspectors in Iran. However, Bill Clinton lied to us and knew he was lying. But beyond politics, I didn't mean for it to sound as if Aethists have no morals, i was meaning that your "religion" has no moral code to speak of, so in theory if you seperated every religion into a different region the one with no moral codes would probably be the one that starts stealing from others.... we are also assuming you get rid of all the psycho paths, the osama bin ladins, the nazis, and the kkk. Anyways, i have completely lost all train of thought so i am leaving

The morale concept was broght on by this... if two people who had no relation to this society in anyway were brought up in two same but different environments, one was brought up through religion, the other was brought up being told there is nothing but this life... which do you think would have the greater idea of morals.

Lets see

Kid 1, Raised on Christianity:

Is taught that, if certain rules are followed then you can have eternal happiness...On this reason he lives life possibly watching out what he does. He could possibly look down to gays, other religions, and others. Only treats other christians with kindness, but others with pity on their souls.

Kid 2, Raised on Athieism:

He is brought up telling that Live your life to the fullest because it is the only one you have. Is nice to people because he believes THEY only have one life too, THEY have the same chances too, and do not deserve any less then him.

Now, ofcourse this is just ONE possibility. Of course a PRO Christianitywould look like this.

Kid 1:
Is raised on God, and is kind to others while he tries to spread his knowledge.

Kid 2:
Doesn't care about anyonee because he has doesn't believe in god.

Ofcourse, which one is shorter, possibly because people don't look into to deep.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by Yngwie]

First off, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a given by simply being alive. It is passed down from generation to generation, whether through religion, or just good parents. If you don't know, then you will quickly find out the first time you try to bash someone and get bashed back. It's a no-brainer. Why is that so specific to just you, Mr/Mrs Christianity? Just because a person is godless doesn't mean he doesn't have a clue how to live!

Ya want the truth? Learn philosophy and how to apply philisophical method and argument. Most Athiests are philisophical by the very nature of being godless.

Here's MY belief... your 'god', this 'being' is false. Most christians I know think of god is a 'being' (or, if confronted, will argue that 'God IS', which isn't really too far off...). God is where we all come from. God is the entire universe that we live in. GOD IS EVIL... as well as good. God does not answer your prayers, he does not have consciousness as we do. God cannot communicate to us. When people 'talk to God', they are talking to other consciousness, maybe not within our direct spiritual realm, but not that far away. God is the singularity that is everything that we see. We live inside the singularity. If you were able to step outside our universe, you could not see it because it is a near perfect balance. Everything needs contrast in order to exist, how would you explain that White exists if that's all you can see, and that's all you know? You can't explain any better than a person who is born blind can explain what he/she sees.

I live in the 'dark', and that does NOT mean that I don't have any morals. It does not mean that I am 'evil', either. Evil and 'dark' can be used for the sake of good, whereas people like Bush live in the 'light', but they use good and 'light' for evil purposes. Think the Crusades were Good or Evil? They were done for the sake of the 'light', but by all morals were completely evil and wrong. Getting my drift? Don't go bashing Athiests like that, unless you want to be bashed back. Athiests probably have more morals and common sense than 'god worshipping' religious people do... Athiests do not follow blindly, and by that very nature they have invoked the power of the ATS slogan "Deny Ignorance". Can't say the same of you... it's quite obvious that you have never even questioned your own faith. Its even MORE obvious that you follow blindly anything that is dangled in front of you by your religious doctrine, or you would not have even THOUGHT of starting this post.

I apologize for MY attack, though. I just don't believe in turning the other cheek... I am my own savior, and only I can answer my prayers and wishes, and if someone comes at me with a 'knife', I'll be damned if I am gonna just let you stab me without stabbing back!

Originally posted by Earthscum
Everything needs contrast in order to exist, how would you explain that White exists if that's all you can see, and that's all you know? You can't explain any better than a person who is born blind can explain what he/she sees.

I just wanted to point out that the inability to define something does not mean it does not exist.

Light would exist without the shadow. White could exist without other colors.

Contrast is only needed to describe, not to exist.


To the original poster:
Believe in God without blind faith is like belief in anything else. A person collects evidence. When the evidence exceeds one's personal "burden of proof", they will believe. This evidence of God's existance is personal in nature. What I would consider evidence, would not be evidence to another. This is true whether a person is looking for the evidence or is not.

Regardless, God created each of us with free will.
What anyone believes is their choice.
It is this choice which provides the contrast to describe what you know is true.

Take Care.

Ryanp555 you are so abviously brainwashed... there is nothing in front of me that even suggests god exsists... theo nyl reason we have religion is to control the masses and to explain unexplainable phenomena... most of these phenomena are now explained thus religion is just here to control the masses... I am an Atheist or Agnostic... not sure yet, but i have more morals than the catholic priests who molest children, or the Islamic terrorist who blows up civilians, or the christian serial killer form some redneck town who cuts up a few people... but because they have religion they are morally correct... is that what your saying?

Its people like you who really give the intelligent religious people a bad name you know that?

"Ryanp555 you are so abviously brainwashed... there is nothing in front of me that even suggests god exsists... theo nyl reason we have religion is to control the masses and to explain unexplainable phenomena... most of these phenomena are now explained thus religion is just here to control the masses... I am an Atheist or Agnostic... not sure yet, but i have more morals than the catholic priests who molest children, or the Islamic terrorist who blows up civilians, or the christian serial killer form some redneck town who cuts up a few people... but because they have religion they are morally correct... is that what your saying?

Its people like you who really give the intelligent religious people a bad name you know that? "


Wow... you say it is people like me who give intelligent religious people a bad name, yet you are the one who put those words into my mouth. If you can read, you may wanna consider reading my SECOND post in which i state, EXCLUDING all the Psycho paths... why? BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS THEM! You think all criminals believe in a God? NO! Because if they did, and actually meant it, not just claimed they believed, they wouldn't have done that crime. If religion is used to control the masses then why do the controllers believe in it... seems quite hypocritical, i mean you fail to mention the fact that the leaders of the world do believe in some sort of God. Yet there are people who say the powers in a country are hidding things from us, whether it be about aliens or just plain old dumb info. So, if they know something we don't, THEN WHY DO THEY BELIEVE? Also, you say there is no proof for a God, why don't you open your eyes, because obviously you aren't. Look in front of you, look at the grass, look at the sky. And if there were two people one highly religious and one aethist, the worst case scenario you gave for the religious person was that they would feel pity for the non-religious person... the worst case scenario you gave for the aethist was not caring about anyone else, hence possible murder, rape, or what have you. Which is worse? Let me ask you, would you rather be raped or have someone pity you? And then you go and say, "well the shorter answer one can't be true because that requires less thought." Some times the obvious is the correct answer. Besides, JESUS states do unto others as you would like done unto you. The religious person would know this before he/she interacted with another human being, while the other person would have to do a trial and error, or may never even learn it. Hey, i have a question for you, if Jesus wasn't God, then why do the three major religions say he existed? Why does Islam say he did rise from the dead, although he isn't God. You have two religions that basically are warring with each other saying that Jesus did rise from the dead. Do you really believe that anyone else besides God could rise from the dead? Or are you just gonna play ignorant and say Jesus never existed because you are afraid to face the truth? Whether or not you believe Jesus is God isn't the point as of right now, the point is that Jesus did exist and that is the truth. And yes Yeshua is Jesus' name, yes i know this, but did you know that Jesus translated into hebrew is YESHUA! WHAT A SURPRISE... lol. That is called translating a language my friend. Now i think i am just rambling, can't wait for the next time i have to post, although now i have to come to below top secret

Why does one need a god to have a moral system? People have developed rational moral systems without gods that reach some of the same conclusions as Jesus' teachings. Most of those are pretty good, some are bad (eternal suffering and a benevolent god don't mix). The point is that god is required for moral systems and that it is therefore wrong to call all atheists amoral because they don't believe in god.

JESUS states do unto others as you would like done unto you. The religious person would know this before he/she interacted with another human being, while the other person would have to do a trial and error, or may never even learn it.

It depends on the person, not the religion. Look at it to the Athiests way, "They only have ONE life like I do, they deserve the same amount of respect as me".

although this may sound odd, and you may not believe this because of how hard up i sounded, but i too believe that everyone is on the same plain, in fact, up until this year, i was an aethist, then i found god... which is why it makes it sooo much harder for me to understand, like, i see god everywhere i am, i dont know. Also, when i first posted this thread i was a little, you know not right in the head due to say . I mean if i offended you, i appologize, but still, i had to back up my point when i first reread this, otherwise i felt like i would lose credibility... oh well, whatcha gonna do...

Ryan555 in my experience it is the atheists who care more about others, especially others from different faiths, than the religious ones. Religious people tend to look down on those without faith as being inferior, atheists dont look down to people for any reason other than something they may have personally experienced, but certainly not for their faith...

The grass is not proof of god... the grass is proof that plants are living things which get energy through ground water and photosynthesis (sun), probably one of the earliest froms of plant life due to their simplicity, thus limited evolution required to acheive their design.

The sky is proof that there is an expanse of space above us with unlimited possibilities.

alot of your defenses that you say a christian person would do are only in theory, theory is only as good as those who practice is... and most of the religious people i know (christian, muslim, jewish etc) do not in fact practice what they preach...

I dont hold it against you that you believe in religion coz idont hink whether you believe or dont would matter i there is an afterlife, i think its more related to how you act in your life than what you believe.

Its good to see you did find god, and that it gives you happiness to have this faith and i respect that. But please dont look down on us who dont believe and assume that we a immoral and evil (i dont know if you said evil but its a cool word to use) but judge each of us as individuals...

Peace out and happy worshipping

there is one thing i don't understand... it is the aethists who ask if you were to never hear of religion, would you believe in it... the answer is YES! Humanity, as a whole, would also re-establish religions. Why? not because people are 'weak' or 'scared' to die, but because there IS a God, and you can tell that there is. Even the aethists deep down know this, yet they prove time and time again they are the one's who are weak. My question to the Aethists is why do you continue to deny the obvious. And don't say it isn't obvious because you can't see it, or there is no proof of it. There is no proof of your name, you can't see your name, but do you know you have a name... YES! Stop with all this madness, the worst religion for the world is Aethism. Why? it provides no morals, no values, and worst of all you, unlike the sites motto, are ignorant. QUITE IGNORING WHATS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. I can't ask you to change based on what i am saying, all i can truly ask is for you to just consider, for one fraction of a second, the possibility that YOU ARE WRONG!

No, Atheists continue to deny the indoctrinated hurdles in thier life, not the obvious truth, whatever it may be. God, in whatever perspective you look at it, comes down to subjective dogma. The only role God/s ever had was to give man/womankind hope, not instill morals and ethics to further restrict our minds.

You're certainly not one who is in touch with God, you seem like one who is overcome in hatred and anger towards those who do not share your belief. Now, you being a Christian, do you think Jesus would have acted in the fashion you have ?

Deep