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Masonic Inquisition- pass/fail

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posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by df1
The Grand Inquisitor Is A Fraud.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
The below, 1st post, was in answer to a few questions presented in another thread:

After due thought and deliberation it seems to me what is needed is an inquisition. Not wanting to put 'masons' on trial but masonry in general it seems the best way to accomplish this is by specifically announcing the the purpose upfront.


Since Freemasonry is nothing other than a group of individuals, you are in fact putting Masons on trial despite your denial.

How so?
If an apple is spoiled is the tree rotten? In this case- if the tree be rotten can the fruit be well?


by df1
As stated in a previous post to our "grand inquisitor", it seems odd that someone purporting to be a libertarian would take such a position, as libertarians typically argue that "society" is just a group of individuals.

Did you not say I was a socialist?
As I asked- national or communal (nazi or communist)?
This is relevant to masonry? My political bias affects masonry- how stupendous. I am looking forward to such a choice next I enter the voting booth.


by df1
PublicGadfly: It seems that you are either being dishonest in your position toward Masons or that you are being dishonest about being a Libertarian. At this point in the interest of fairness, I must ask the "grand inquistor" to divulge all organizations of which he/she is/has been a member. It is only fair to either have the sword cut both ways or to sheath the sword.

Yes- the Grand Inquisitor- please step forward and enlighten us all. I have wont to receive that which is hidden, where once lost is it now to be found? Quickly, quickly for I thirst much!


by LTD602
Incidentally, my post to Chakra was a joke . . . . . I'm not in line for any Swastika-inspired robe, lol.

As for Hitler's occult obsessions . . . . . I have no understanding of them or any opinion on them.
- - -
Let me clarify that it is belief in a "Supreme being" in my jurisidiction Immortality of the soul, at least in my jursidiction, does not play into it. Nor is "God" mentioned at any interview. Just from my experience . . .

So LTD am I to surmise that you posted to provide a Hitlerian link to any that oppose masonry? Or, was this a joke as well?
Further, as the soul or God are not a part of your masonic experience then how can it be said that masonry "respects" (or words to that effect) a monotheistic god?
You surely were not guessing, were you? Or- was this just another ""joke?""
I am left to surmise then that "entering masonry as an apostate has no meaning"? Therefore can it then be concluded that any claiming some divine-link within masonry are erroneous or is that they are duplicitous?

Someone asked “what does it matter (refering to masonry being based upon lies) to me or my family” or words to this effect. Does it matter not one wit to any that hold a lie is as good as the truth, that one claim disproven is replaced by yet another untested?
To any parent that wants their children to believe no god is just as important as any god and that to claim godliness is just as well as to be godly then there is – no matter.
Is it not all hollow and patronizing verbiage to justify that which can not otherwise be admitted?


by df1
A truth revealed

As I suspected, "PublicGadfly" is anti-Mason due to intolerant religious beliefs, as the quoted post from another thread demonstrates. I am particularly amused at how religous zealots show up on ATS attacking Masonic secrecy while concealing their own religious beliefs which would make the reasons for their religion based intolerance obvious to all.
quote: Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I know a lot of Catholics...

Those who direct the Illuminati are against Christ and for Satan

You say that I am a zealot, is this any more or less reason for a fact to be less weighty?
Is there some publication or pronouncement you can point to that refutes what was posted regarding the Illuminati?
-or-
Is this meant to be a masonic-Illuminati tie?


by Alex Kenndey
I find it upsetting that he calls himself "Public Gadfly" (a reference to Socrates), yet is so distant from Socrates in his Modus operandi. Socrates did his best to question standardised definitions. Socrates never took a side on who was "good" and who was not. We see something very different in Public Gadfly's obvious partisanship. No need to question a papal bull that says Freemasonry is eeevil -- that's not the kind of "Gadfly" he is.

You say I referred to Socrates- I used the search feature at ATS and did not so find.
What, in a forum ostensibly about secret societies is more standardized than masonry is . . . this or that?
Where are the representative agents of the Pope in this forum? - show me, name them, point to them.


by theron dunn
. . . you keep writing that Masonry is by invitation...

Sir, it is a policy among the vast majority of masons NOT TO INVITE ANYONE. A man must ask.

summation:
By theron's own post am I left to surmise that there is NO universality in masonry save that which suits a special purpose? Is this not then a 'brotherhood' of beggars?
By Alex's post I surmise that by not claiming [masonry] is good becomes the same thing as claiming it is bad?
By a few of the posts disagreement with masonry as stated herein this forum is akin to being a profesed Hitlerite, is this a proper surmise?
As Grand Inquisitor, does df1 claim to being a fraud? This could certainly be surmised from the posts, could it not?
The oft stated claim regarding a belief in soul and monotheism if anything has been lain to rest as MYTH by one of “the brothers.”

Masonry does not boded well as a force for the positive at this point. On the contrary, I surmise, that masonry's defenders can not show universality or the type that non-masons would agree is beneficial.
We do not approach the jury, as yet. .




posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:12 PM
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Chakra,

No, I don't know what that first picture is. It seems to incorporate the all-seeing eye imagery, as well as a sun and moons - all symbols which do have some significance for Masonry, but are by no means limited to Masonry. I do know that in a Masonic ceremonial chamber, there is a stylized image of a moon on one side and an image of the sun on the other side, apart from the other images that are there.

I can't comment on the vessel the two people are carrying. I'm not going to make the Ark of the Covenant connection at this point, however. As for the hooded robes: robes are not part of the regalia in Craft Masonry. Robes are worn in Royal Arch Masonry, however, whis is part of the appendant degrees of Masonry. I have no idea what 33rd degree Masons wear or when a robe might be used in their case.

Apart from all that, there's not much more I can say.

By the way, where oh WHERE did you find that first picture???

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:17 PM
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Public Gadfly, your summations are completely unconnected with any reasoning from fact. No court in any system derived from the Roman (such as America or Canada) would accept summations so obviously contrary to known facts. In essence, your previous message adds up to nothing. There is no argument, no facts, no chain of logic, no expert opinion... nothing. All that is present is distaste, hatred, and disingenuousness (do you really expect people to believe you haven't already formed an opinion about Masonry? Every word you type reeks with your hatred, and you turn everything you read, regardless of its meaning, into a point against Masonry).

Frankly, I don't want to play anymore, so I won't be responding to any more of your tripe. I'd advise others to do so as well, but they are, of course, free to do as they wish.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:18 PM
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Gadfly:

You and I obviously differ on what is morally, materially, and spiritually important.

What I have no qualms with, you do. What I do not object to, you do. Fair enough.

Diversity is the spice of life.

As to apostasy: A potential Mason can cerainly fake it and simply lie about belief in a Supreme Being. There isn't necessarily a penalty for that. The main consequence is that they will find the rituals rather empty and unrewarding. Therefore, if you feel that Masonry is for you, then that presupposes your belief in some form of spirituality. In this case, the next step to warming up to the Masonic interpretation of "Supreme Being" is an easy one.

Hope that helps.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
Robes are worn in Royal Arch Masonry, however, whis is part of the appendant degrees of Masonry.


Not robes. Cloaks.

33° Masons (In my jurisdiction) wear a business suit, with a 33° medallion.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:23 PM
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LTD602,

www.geocities.com...

Its down the page.

[edit] its not working! just go to google and type 'crowley baphomet'

should be the first site.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:24 PM
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Right, cloaks.

Thanks, Alex.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by Alex Kenndey
I find it upsetting that he calls himself "Public Gadfly" (a reference to Socrates), yet is so distant from Socrates in his Modus operandi. Socrates did his best to question standardised definitions. Socrates never took a side on who was "good" and who was not. We see something very different in Public Gadfly's obvious partisanship. No need to question a papal bull that says Freemasonry is eeevil -- that's not the kind of "Gadfly" he is.



Originally posted by PublicGadfly
You say I referred to Socrates- I used the search feature at ATS and did not so find.
What, in a forum ostensibly about secret societies is more standardized than masonry is . . . this or that?
Where are the representative agents of the Pope in this forum? - show me, name them, point to them.


PG, you refer to Socrates every time you post, "Public Gadfly" was a self described role that Socrates bestowed upon himself. This "civil post" was not popular with the citizenry of Athens (the Aristocratic Revolt of 404 B.C.,and the reign of terror was attributed to his musings, friends, and students), and I will take this moment to disagree with my esteemed colleague AK; Socrates brought forth derision upon himself through his premeditated, and intended dissent. PG has also acted with the same premeditated, and willfully intended result... the "outrage" of the Freemasons, and pro-Freemason posters here on ATS. The similarity ends here, there will be no "Trial", there is no one to play PG's Plato (here's your chance for ATS immortality NeonHelmet), no "Apology" forthcoming, PG will not endure the test of time and AK and I will once again agree... "The Clouds", remember "The Clouds".

Clarification Monkeys, not just for butter anymore...



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
I don't know what to think. Although masons wear hooded robes and the people in my dream had them too, somehow I think the people in the building were above any known body. As if masons were a front and they throw it away as it wasn't needed anymore.


Seems to me that some of the "rites" of masonry wear cloak/robes at certain level/stages. A hat or a hood?

I'm not sure that in a dream there would be much difference.

Could be symbolic? Perhaps this dream has symbolism that you haven't yet uncovered.

The buildings- I think there may be more here than not. The section of London you posted about seemed to be explicit to you.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:54 PM
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Just a funny pic i found wouldnt you agree 7th chakra?



ROFLMAOPAO

*FNORD*

this subliminal message was brought to you by the coexistend alpha reptile from a new age wonder

*FNORD*

[edit on 1-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:55 PM
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There is definitely a dscussion, but there CAN BE NO TRIAL.

A trial cannot be conducted by a person who is not acquainted with, or who has never experienced firsthand the subject that he is putting on trial, if such experience can be had. And such experience CAN be had.

Again, Gadfly and I disgree on what we consider right and wrong, morally objectionable and morally acceptable. There is no point in continuing the argument under such circumstances. So, I withdraw.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me
PG, you refer to Socrates every time you post, "Public Gadfly" was a self described role that Socrates bestowed upon himself. This "civil post" was not popular with the citizenry of Athens (the Aristocratic Revolt of 404 B.C.,and the reign of terror was attributed to his musings, friends, and students), and I will take this moment to disagree with my esteemed colleague AK; Socrates brought forth derision upon himself through his premeditated, and intended dissent. PG has also acted with the same premeditated, and willfully intended result... the "outrage" of the Freemasons, and pro-Freemason posters here on ATS. The similarity ends here, there will be no "Trial", there is no one to play PG's Plato (here's your chance for ATS immortality NeonHelmet), no "Apology" forthcoming, PG will not endure the test of time and AK and I will once again agree... "The Clouds", remember "The Clouds".


O.K. Alex is out- such a sham(e)

I don't want to play anymore, so I won't be responding to any more of your tripe. I'd advise others to do so as well, but they are, of course, free to do as they wish.


Does masonry remain?
Are the detractors pilloried?

Mirthful again brings Socrates forward- let the dead bury the dead I say.
Socrates took hemlock (so we are told by many ) because of his impending fate, am I to grasp the switch and end my virtuale existence as well?

I am left accused because of the choice of a name-
this reasoning would have me to believe that the above poster is in reality nothing more nor less than than “glad, warm and tender.” Somehow this doesn't seem to imminaate from my screen

Without levity (I had to read this thrice to loss the humor) “the “outrage” of the Freemasons . . . .”

What outrage? Have I not tried to unveil that which is veiled? Is this outrageous- then this begs the question of 'why'. I don't ask this question at this time but it is pregnant and approaching birth. Absent an abortion of the thought then 'why' will most likely be asked.

Down from the clouds into the world that is corrupted. Down from the clouds, exposed to light answers and truths will stand on their own.

Why is it that the admittedly least knowledgeable unblushingly has the most knowledge? LTD602, other than the deliberate side tracking of a fellow seeker of the truth, posts more masonic reasons for being than any other I have comprehended.

The 'knowledgeable' masonic supporters seem prone to the knife- Is it just me?

That a few mere questions could bring about such denial is by itself telling of something-

I am still at a lose as to what masonry is or is not.

Factually (according to posts from people claiming knowledge here at ATS)
    masonry does not require a belief in any kind of being, supreme or otherwise except for those that do
    masonry is different in different places and therefore is not universal in its precepts or actions except where it claims to be universal
    masons don't wear robes except when the do
    masons will gladly and with simple honesty answer any question regarding masonry except questions that deal with any part of masonry

Now two pro-masons have withdrawn-
Assuredly, each for their own reasons.

For some reason this just doesn't seem to explain to me why masonry is so secretive, selective and beneficial to society as a whole. Even though many masons in history have performed well for society and for peoples is this society beneficial to mason and non-masons? Do masons and non-masons have reason to doubt masonic goals? If masonry required a 'brother' to do something harmful to that brother's nation and the brother refused - - then what?

The unexamined life is not worth living
There is some old diatribe about journeys beginning with the first step, hopefully we have started this journey.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 09:10 PM
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Just to clarify, Gadfly:

Masons DO require a belief in a "Supreme Being." The definition "Supreme Being", however, is open enough to make it congenial to most, if not all, religions. Masons, however, in my experience at least, do not press the question further once they have asked it. It is up to the potential Mason to reconcile himself with that term. The term is a malleable one, and for good reasons, which I outlined in a separate thread.

My knowledge of Masonry might be considered more than adequate for a non-mason, but it pales in comparison to what actual Masons know - since they are involved with the Craft in person. More than anything, my goal is to be reasonable. The moment the debate goes into the realm of morality and personal beliefs, I withdraw. It makes life easier and keeps my foot on the ground and not in my mouth.
Others, however, might be better at these kinds of debates than I, I'll grant that.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
After due thought and deliberation it seems to me what is needed is an inquisition. Not wanting to put 'masons' on trial but masonry in general it seems the best way to accomplish this is by specifically announcing the the purpose upfront.

No offense, but how do you figure you're gonnas start and Inquisition?
I tried to follow your posts. I don't understand your logic or what you're trying to prove.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 09:17 PM
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I tried to follow your posts. I don't understand your logic or what you're trying to prove.


Nothing new here eh Just joking DTOM I think it’s basically an argument over moral and philosophical views, though I find the lack of participation disturbing.
If it was my belief system that was under an “inquisition” I would defend it with my life.
I dare you to attack my pagan beliefs


Bilbo



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 09:25 PM
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It's a subjective matter, Neon . . .

My belief system remains my belief system, regardless of who challenges it. It doessn't need defending.

Personal reputation, character, and those whom I love and consider friends are more worthy of defense.

Just my view.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet
If it was my belief system that was under an “inquisition” I would defend it with my life.


Neon, my belief system isn't under an inquisition. I haven't heard anything remotely representing evidence or argument... just the mumblings of a pretentious hate-filled individual who apparently thinks poorly enough of himself to appoint himself "inquisitor" to something he knows nothing about. Frankly, it's a yawn. People who know anything about Freemasonry know how full of nonsense PG is... he requires no refutation, for he has presented no arguments.



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 12:11 AM
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Yes Ak I phrased that bad, any way I haven’t seen anything yet in here that intrest me so I think I will be leaving as well.



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
No offense, but how do you figure you're gonnas start and Inquisition?
I tried to follow your posts. I don't understand your logic or what you're trying to prove.


If an inquisition were possible on a forum then in this instance it started long, long before I came to ATS. I avoided 'mason' threads at first because I have seen from other boards what inevitably happens. I must confess that curiosity got the better of me and like a cat, I sniffed a few times.

I decided to see if curiosity really does “kill the cat.”

My logic and what I'm trying to prove?
My logic is simple- apparently I have not presented it as such else you wouldn't have asked.

By connecting A to B and not having AB what is missing?

A= claim
B= history supports the claim of A

“This is good.”
History equates otherwise

I am trying to discover what the mason-thing is all about. As this board generally deals with conspiracies it just seems to me that when something that has an enormously pervasive nature affecting the world at large exists there will be reason and proof that this “thing” is on the up and up and above board for me to believe it is a positive force if it so claims.

Many things upon the world affect us all. Many of these “things” lay no claim to be for the benefit of the world or humanity. The ones that do claim to be beneficial should be able to do two simple things:
    stand up to scrutiny
    prove themselves


Harsh example:
    Xism is good. (insert any number of beliefs)
    History all to easily has proved that to humanity as a whole and to some parts most specifically this is false.

I didn't live during that time. I have no specific first hand knowledge of the claim being false yet I absolutely do believe the clam to be false.

What am I trying to prove?
I may be trying to prove the statement: masonry is good.

Like a thermos bottle, I am only getting out of it what has been put in. I can not say masonry is good.

Is masonry the individual or is it bigger? Is there a masonic conspiracy? If so then is it beneficial or not? Are there masons that use masonry to further private goals? These are just of few of the questions I have wondered about.



Originally posted by NeonHelmet

If it was my belief system that was under an “inquisition” I would defend it with my life.
I dare you to attack my pagan beliefs



I haven't found a post where you or any other pagan has claimed that being a pagan is “secret, but trust us- we will do good for you.” Or “only we know the secret and therefore only we are perfection.” Nor have I found historically significant times within the past few hundred years where pagans had an enormous impact upon the world scene- also, I must confess I have not looked.

If there are such things please be so kind as to post a link



Originally posted by Alex Kennedy

Neon, my belief system isn't under an inquisition. I haven't heard anything remotely representing evidence or argument... just the mumblings of a pretentious hate-filled individual who apparently thinks poorly enough of himself to appoint himself "inquisitor" to something he knows nothing about. Frankly, it's a yawn. People who know anything about Freemasonry know how full of nonsense PG is . . .he has presented no arguments



Hate-filled?

I trust this refers to moi and not some one else. I would be saddened to think someone has earned such venom and passed through my Internet connection without my notice.

I agree fully, but for that listed below, the dearth of evidence and its ensuing argument are sadly lacking.

“People who know anything . . .nonsense PG is” From the posts in this and many, many other threads I feel compelled to disagree.

“presented no arguments”
Well I have asked a few questions- doesn't that show a modicum of interest? So am I to argue only and can not ask? If I don't know the question how is this supposed to work out?

LTD, by his own statements the least knowledgeable of all the mason posters, has been the most forthcoming. LTD appears to be genuine in what he has posted- save for the rather crass side-tract into Nazi-lore. J/k

Any lodge that he joins will most likely find itself the winner of the bargain.
(did you get my Paypal off yet) j/k

At this point in this thread it seems I can't find anything to help with my thermos. I will visit other mason threads before returning. Hopefully I will have good news.


df1

posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 05:53 AM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
You say that I am a zealot, is this any more or less reason for a fact to be less weighty?

You have produced no facts to support your assertions, so we do not even need a scale to measure weight. Your being an intolerant anti-Mason zealot makes any further discussion with you concerning Masonry pointless in the same way that discussing racism with david duke would be pointless. This is further punctuated by your desire to have an old style papal inquisition where guilt has already been determined, so all that remains is for you to pass sentence.

You have revealed yourself, so my work is done here.

Hiyo Silver away...
.




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