At what biological level does consciousness start?

There is no universally accepted definition of consciousness. For simplicity let's assume that it is closely related to self-awareness and awareness of an outside world. So when does consciousness start?

Is it related to the amount of neurons in the brain, or maybe not related to that quantitative element at all? Is consciousness exclusively a brain function, or is a single-cell organism already conscious? Does having a membrane (cell) make you "separated" from the universe and therefore conscious?

I'm wondering: is an atom conscious? I tend to think that it's not. So at what level of complexity is consciousness formed from non-conscious building blocks?

I'm looking forward to your replies.

Best,

AllIsOne

This is probably an oversimplified statement , but stuart hameroff believes consciousness is a self collapsing wave function of potential possibilities that occurs when the amount of superpositions reaches a threshold. I've heard him say on a video this would be around 300 neurons. But that is just his theory on consciousness, some people think he is a crackpot. I really don't know to be honest.

So far as science goes we might be able to call dolphins, elephants, a few types of ape and surprisingly a few types of birds self aware enough to know they're looking at their own image in a mirror. It's a hard one to define though as you say.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I would have to say consciousness starts when life begins and life begins at conception!!
Consciousness starts before the ability to think. The body is alive when its conceived!!

reply to post by AllIsOne


I think it would depend more on the purpose and usage of such a characteristic. Every thing about humans or animals exists for a reason. Our consciousness exists because it helped us work in groups better, and motivate us to survive. Anything that has those two traits, should also have a consciousness. How far it goes is probably directly related to intelligence.

Forgive me for what is a simple response and opinion.

I believe that consciousness begins long before the physical body is conceived.

Modern science define consciousness as "that which is aware of itself"; but that would be self-consciousness.
I think that consciousness is much better defined in buddhism as "that which is aware". Meaning the consciousness is that which experiences things, feelings, sensations and so on, either through a body or outside of it.
In this respect, every living thing, no matter how small, have a consciousness.
I wonder if plants have a consciousness; it was proved that they are aware and reacting to their surroundings.

reply to post by AllIsOne


Impossible to determine. Do you remember your first thought? Probably not. If you can say yes, how do you know there wasn't one before that you didn't remember? You can't.

I tend to like a more Buddhist point of view, wherein the entire universe is a conscious entity, that consciousness of different varieties exist at every level. In this approach the very essence of the universe is consciousness and things like matter and energy are manifestations of that consciousness, rather than the other way around. The thing we tend to think of as consciousness (when defined as self-awareness) is a tendency the universe has to try to examine and entertain the endless creative aspects and possibilities of itself, hence the concept of self-awareness comes into the picture. If you can think of consciousness as a fractal mapping in which we are like the little "twirls" sitting on a boundary condition of an infinite expanse, just as we sit on the boundary between Earth and space, you can maybe get an insight into the concept. It's certainly not easy for our little minds to contemplate!

Good question! My take is probably not much help in answering it - it's just an idea I like to entertain. Makes as much sense as anything else I've heard! I believe the ancients thought more along these lines, before religion became a tool for power brokers, and the mind control set in.

Originally posted by Darkblade71
Forgive me for what is a simple response and opinion.

I believe that consciousness begins long before the physical body is conceived.

Could you please elaborate? Do we all share the same "consciousness" -->Jung's "collective unconsciousness"? Where/when does my individual consciousness start?

Originally posted by WhiteHat
Modern science define consciousness as "that which is aware of itself"; but that would be self-consciousness.
I think that consciousness is much better defined in buddhism as "that which is aware". Meaning the consciousness is that which experiences things, feelings, sensations and so on, either through a body or outside of it.
In this respect, every living thing, no matter how small, have a consciousness.
I wonder if plants have a consciousness; it was proved that they are aware and reacting to their surroundings.

edit on 27-10-2011 by WhiteHat because: (no reason given)

Wonder no more ... :-)


en.wikipedia.org...

Based on the work of Cleve Backster, I believe that consciousness is non-local. I highly doubt that it originates from a meat computer. Dan Winters thinks that DNA tunes in consciousness.

In order to believe that consciousness originates from neurons, one would have to assume that we only have a physical body and there are no non-physical/non-local components.

The reason Cleve Backster's work convinces me that consciousness is non-local is because he discovered that plants (no neurons there) reacted to seeing a person who destroyed a plant in the past. The plants were hooked up to lie detector sensors in that experiment.

Science doesn't understand that much about various aspects of reality when it comes down to it. They can't explain how plants without eyes or brains respond to events. They have no clue as to how the boy with no eyes could tell the doctor what he was wearing and describe the room he was in. (That's from John Lerma's Pre-Death Experiences)
Consciousness is virtually unlimited. We're only brainwashed by science into believing in limitations that although imaginary, limit us if we believe in them.

consciouness is constant it does not stop or start.

memory on the other hand used to be better back when, uh...
i dont remember.

edit: when i mean to say its constant on a biological level is that in every part of the process every cell is aware of what it has to do, consciouness to me is awareness of an ongoin process.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I personally believe that at the root, it is a collective conscious, however, when entering the body, and long before that even, some form of personal identity is there. We sort of are like fragments of a larger piece. IMO

I also believe in reincarnation, so that might also help to explain a little bit of how I see it.

reply to post by AllIsOne

Wonder no more ... :-)


en.wikipedia.org...

The Secret Life of Plants.
I wonder if that's the same mini doc I watched a few years ago. The plant, which was hooked up to sensory equipment, reacted when someone came in the room that had previously broken part of the plant. Amazing.

There was another show I recently watched that had grape vines growing towards music speakers that the grower had out with the vines. They were also the healthiest of his grapes, the ones closest to the music.

reply to post by Darkblade71


Thank you for elaborating. Appreciate it.

reply to post by AllIsOne


Consciousness. Are you conscious? Are you awake? Is there an experience happening that you are aware of?
Can you say you are not? No, you are and you know you are.
In fact it is the ONLY thing that you can 100% say for sure. I am.
There is no way any other thing can be known for sure. Your being is a prime fact.

To ask are atoms, cats or plants conscious is stepping in to the unknown. I really don't know if there is anything else here but this experience. The one that is occuring now.
There is only ever the awareness of what is hapening now and it is consciousness that makes it possible.

I love this short contemplation;
youtu.be...

I'm going to throw out a lightening rod attached to my head. The Jewish faith has a definition for when an infant, that is a moving puddle, changes over into being a conscious being. Like age 6 or something.

whenever a organic unit is able to respond to a stimulus

at the stage of a self contained cellular unit as opposed to a chemical chain or molecule

Buddha and Jesus were both pointing to consciousness. Christ is not Jesus' surname it means consciousness.
Consciousness is like the container in which all appearances appear.
It is knowingness.

Without the knowing first nothing can be.