Masonic Lodges and the issues surrounding transgender people/members

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
...but you'd brought up the aspect of medical reconstruction and that sort of begged the question of what I brought up.

I had not taken into account hermephrodites and was only refering to people who do this for other reasons.

I wasn't really talking specifically about hermaphrodites either (although they are part of the overall larger group). Clearly those who founded masonry never considered these things either. Who would?

I think this pretty much clears it up. It's concise, not too technical and really cuts to the heart of the issue.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by HardToStarboard



Cute!

reply to post by Afterthought


I am FTM (female to male) Transgender person. I stumbled upon this post after searching for information about joining Freemasonry. I’ve always wanted to since I was a small child. The beliefs and principles fit perfectly with mine and the history and richness of tradition just appeals to something deep inside me. I figured it would be a dead end considering the i was born biologically female… at least in my outward physical appearance anyway. I can't tell you how pleased i am to see an intelligent discussion being had about this… even if i don't share the same opinions about gender identity as some of you. This is actually what made me join this site and leave a comment. From a personal perspective i can tell you that other than being born in this body there is nothing about me that is female or ever has been. I was tortured by this knowledge from my earliest memories (2 to 3 years old) and dealt with extreme depression over it till when in my 30’s I decided to stop caring about what other people would think and started transitioning. For the first time in 30 years I feel like I can be me. first time ever in 30 years (think about that). It's sad that even though people can easily list the numerous possible gender issues that can happen during pregnancy that lead to things such as Hermaphrodism, intersex and many many other conditions...that it seems to be such a huge leap for intelligent men and women to think that there couldn’t be additional issues that could happen within the body and aren't visible to the naked eye or haven’t been discovered as of yet. so many things have been discovered about how the mind and body work. also how they work together or in MANY cases don't. meaning we are a variant species. things are happening inside of each and every one of us that we can't explain at this time by science but are none the less factual. I'm not going to address the issue of whether or not we as men who have been unfortunate enough to have been born with this condition should or should not be allowed to join but i will say that it's your loss ( as a fraternity)…at least in my case. i am very much the type of guy who would thrive in that environment but i'll never have the chance because of people who believe that there is some choice involved in this. hilarious. if transgender people were able to speak and comprehend as infants and were given the choice they would immediately change sexes so that they wouldn't have to deal with this complicated world and all of the people in it who have failed to open their minds to the possibilities that there are things that they just don't know enough about to justifiably give an opinion.

Harmony being the strength and support of all society especially of ours, I don't think the presence of a transgender female would be conducive to that harmony.

Also, there is some bare-breastedness during degree work, and that would pose some problems.

In fact, the preparation of a candidate would also be suspect if the candidate was a female.

If this was a fully transitioned female to male, and nobody ever knew any differently, the of course we would accept them at their word of honor, so they would probably get through.

If this was a male to female transition, I don't see how it could ever work.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Harmony being the strength and support of all society especially of ours, I don't think the presence of a transgender female would be conducive to that harmony.

Also, there is some bare-breastedness during degree work, and that would pose some problems.

In fact, the preparation of a candidate would also be suspect if the candidate was a female.

If this was a fully transitioned female to male, and nobody ever knew any differently, the of course we would accept them at their word of honor, so they would probably get through.

If this was a male to female transition, I don't see how it could ever work.

reply to post by rheath


I'm so happy to hear this thread helped you!

I'm not a Mason or Eastern Star and not considered "enlightened" by any secretive or traditional standards, but I believe you're already on your way to enlightenment simply because of this statement you've made:

I decided to stop caring about what other people would think

If everyone stopped worrying about others thought of us, the world would be a happier and more harmonious place. Good luck with everything and remember that you don't have to be a member of a group to be special.

Take care & best wishes to you, my friend!

reply to post by rheath


You should know though that Masonic lodges also preform background checks on all candidates, they will see a name change and probably sex status change as well (or maybe not, depends on how indepth they go)

Being born a Female automatically excludes you from Masonry even if you transitioned into a man in many Grand Lodge's jurisdictions .. I tell you this only to prepare you that you may very well be blocked from entry or may very well be expelled if the information comes to light further down the road. As you can tell throughout this thread it's a difficult topic.

reply to post by rheath


You know, if I were you, I would find a group who was less judgemental.
Maybe you could start a lodge for people who would be welcome not matter what.

reply to post by Afterthought


Okay, let's get some things straight.

There are TWO lines of Freemasonry; the CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY and the PROGRESSIVE FRENCH - CONTINENTAL FREEMASONRY.

The CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY makes up about 95% of Freemasonry in this nation, but there is a presence of numerous Progressive Obediences in full amity with the French Continental Tradition which have been established in this nation for the last 30 years and we have begun to spread considerably in the last few years. See my website and check it periodically for updates.

Also, see this website: www.clipsas.com... -- and, mind you, these make up maybe about a third of all Progressive Obediences in the world.

PROGRESSIVE FRENCH CONTINENTAL FREEMASONRY does not discriminate against...

1) black people

2) women

3)LGBT people (As a matter of fact, the way that the Grand Orient de France went from a Masculine Obedience which only allowed Female Masons as visitors from other Obediences to a de-facto Mixed Gender Obedience just a few years ago was that one of its members had a gender change surgery. Not only that, but AFTER the "Brother" became a "Sister," she was actually elected as Venerable Master of her lodge.)

4)Agnostics and/or Atheists.

People who say that "The Masons" do "not" allow all of these people as members are either LIARS within the lineage of CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY or they are ignorant of the size and influence of PROGRESSIVE FREEMASONRY in the world, including our nation.

If you are LGBT, a woman or an Agnostic and you want to join a worldwide Fellowship in which Politics and Religion ARE discussed; where we give charity specifically to institutions that -- work to stop wars; work to end hunger; work to end disease; etc. then write to me.

Originally posted by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA
People who say that "The Masons" do "not" allow all of these people as members are either LIARS within the lineage of CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY or they are ignorant of the size and influence of PROGRESSIVE FREEMASONRY in the world, including our nation.

If you read the thread closely you would have seen that this was discussed and understood.

reply to post by Rockpuck


No, it does NOT. It ONLY excludes you from CONSERVATIVE lodges like YOURS. There a good number of Masonic Obediences in line with the French Progressive lineage in this country and we are quickly spreading.

And the reason that we are spreading is that your CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY with its chauvinism, racism, anti-LGBT and other biases as well as your under-handed cow-towing to the powers of the British Monarchy is getting a little tiresome for the people of our Nation. Stop lying. Stop telling people that we are "Irregular" Masons and that we have no legitimate lineage. Stop telling people that the UGLE was founded in 1717. It was founded in 1813. What was formed in 1717 was the Grand Lodge of London. It was united with at least one other Grand Lodge and a number of independent lodges in 1813 and THIS IS WHEN THE UGLE WAS REALLY FOUNDED. You know that damn well. The Grand Orient de France is technically older than the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) and that makes our lineage of Freemasonry MORE legitimate IF you really want to get technical.

Just because you have 2 and a half million members -- mostly old, chubby white guys who RARELY show up to lodge -- does not make you "Regular." YOU gave yourselves the so-called title of "Regular" freemasonry. You are not "regular" anything. Racism is NOT "regular." Chauvinism is NOT "regular." Prejudices are NOT "regular." Tell it like it is. You are CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONS and although you make up the majority in inflated numbers, you are NOT growing in size.

reply to post by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA


Thanks for reiterating that information.

The conversation was going in the direction that a background check would reveal things and the person would be rejected. It's good for the poster to know that there is a lodge who wouldn't discriminate.

I see the need for background checks to make sure someone isn't a criminal and a good citizen, but a background check shouldn't be done to discover sexual identity. Since I don't know, is there a place on a Masonic Lodge application asking if someone has ever gone by another name or alias? It just seemed as though Rockpuck was assuming that this person would be hiding this information when this doesn't seem as though it would be the case.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA
People who say that "The Masons" do "not" allow all of these people as members are either LIARS within the lineage of CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY or they are ignorant of the size and influence of PROGRESSIVE FREEMASONRY in the world, including our nation.

If you read the thread closely you would have seen that this was discussed and understood.

Where, smart guy? Quote me the whole post. NO ONE mentions this or else ignores it.

reply to post by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA


For all intensive purposes, I just reread the thread (it's been a while since it started), and I don't see where the information you provided had been discussed previously.

Again, thank you for popping into the thread and adding that valuable piece of information. It's nice to know that Freemasonry is becoming less strict and more available for people who wouldn't otherwise be accepted.

reply to post by Afterthought


agreed and thank you

It's just honestly so amazing to stumble upon this and see that people can discuss gender issues without being horrible (so far anyway). i spent the majority of my life suffering alone and in silence because transgender topics were off limits. Thanks for putting it out there and really i think the few people who commented on it not being a big issue will be VERY surprised in the not too distant future by how many transgender people there actually are. the numbers that are given now are nowhere near accurate because this is just now becoming something that people can feel comfortable even mentioning...none the less "coming out". Clearly not all of them will want to be Freemasons but many more than you would expect i'm sure. we are men. we have had to deal with so much as is and i can only speak for myself when i say that having had to deal with this has made me a better man than i ever would have been otherwise.

reply to post by Rockpuck


thanks for the information and really i assumed this was the case. i was just looking into it as a curiosity because i really truly identify with freemasonry but i fully expected this to be the case. I wouldn't try to force the issue because i personally wouldn't want to be a part of anything that didn't except me fully for who i am. it puts a dark cloud over freemasonry for me and kind of diminishes the light from the things that i love about it as well. i do love that the topic was brought up though. healthy discussion about these things is the only way progress will ever be made.

reply to post by rheath


My pleasure!

I'm hoping ProgressiveFreemason pops back in. I'd like to know if the rituals are different and in what way. I'm sure you'd be interested to know this as well. I can't imagine that being bare chested during the ceremony makes the person become more enlightened.

Again, I'm so happy this thread has helped you!
I do try to make sure my threads remain civil. The ATS mods do a great job of this, too. Other websites don't seem to enforce this and it's nice to see that this practice attracts more people who enjoy intelligent discussion. It simply makes for a better learning environment/atmosphere.

Edit to Add: Welcome to ATS!

Originally posted by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

No, it does NOT. It ONLY excludes you from CONSERVATIVE lodges like YOURS. There a good number of Masonic Obediences in line with the French Progressive lineage in this country and we are quickly spreading.

And the reason that we are spreading is that your CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONRY with its chauvinism, racism, anti-LGBT and other biases as well as your under-handed cow-towing to the powers of the British Monarchy is getting a little tiresome for the people of our Nation. Stop lying. Stop telling people that we are "Irregular" Masons and that we have no legitimate lineage. Stop telling people that the UGLE was founded in 1717. It was founded in 1813. What was formed in 1717 was the Grand Lodge of London. It was united with at least one other Grand Lodge and a number of independent lodges in 1813 and THIS IS WHEN THE UGLE WAS REALLY FOUNDED. You know that damn well. The Grand Orient de France is technically older than the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) and that makes our lineage of Freemasonry MORE legitimate IF you really want to get technical.

Just because you have 2 and a half million members -- mostly old, chubby white guys who RARELY show up to lodge -- does not make you "Regular." YOU gave yourselves the so-called title of "Regular" freemasonry. You are not "regular" anything. Racism is NOT "regular." Chauvinism is NOT "regular." Prejudices are NOT "regular." Tell it like it is. You are CONSERVATIVE ANGLO-AMERICAN FREEMASONS and although you make up the majority in inflated numbers, you are NOT growing in size.

I'm going to go on with the idea that I do not agree with progressive freemasonry and the current Freemasonry we have in the United States right now. I do believe that Freemasonry should remain a "fraternity" in the sense that it's a men only organization. In addition, I believe that we shouldn't concentrate so much on the community, but rather the individual. it is up to the individual Mason to become a good man and have the community benefit from him rather than the lodge trying to, in my opinion, save face value to show that we aren't a secret society and that we don't hurt people who expose our secrets (except Morgan, that guy had it coming). I do not believe that Freemasonry started in 1717 or in the early part of the 19th century for that matter either. I believe that our craft is much much older, but that's for another topic.

Not "ALL" lodges, like you say, are filled with old fat men who care about eating. This is the biggest issue I believe in freemasonry. I do have to agree with you that complacency and a lack of real care for Freemasonry is a danger to the fraternity and I believe in quality over quantity. I am not afraid to black ball someone, and have done so already. Freemasonry is NOT for everyone and we need to stop acting like every man can join. The Freemasonry that I follow and adhere to is the more spiritual/esoteric side in which by the degrees we do and the learning within lodge that takes place, we can come closer to the realization of what and who we are. Freemasonry is a great catalyst for searching for the secrets of life. I did not knock on the door of Freemasonry to eat dinners and attend a similar-style organization to that of the Moose or Elks lodges.

I recently just met with a brother who is a part of the Memphis-Misraim Rite. We discussed things to the nature of what he does in his lodge and what we do. In California, MM is considered "Clandestine" and therefore we cannot attend their lodge, but I believe that Freemsaonry should not be bound to one jurisdiction, for the fraternity does not have a "base" in any country. it is universal and can be done anywhere. I see that you are from the L.A. area, i live close to that area and I know of a club called Hermes Trismegistus that formed up there that consisted of California Freemasons. I have not heard of them from some while and believe they have disbanded. i for one am disgusted with calling other lodges and rites 'irregular", but again I believe that the fraternity should remain a fraternity and not co-ed.

Originally posted by ProgressiveFreemasonryUSA
Just because you have 2 and a half million members

And you have a club you started just over a month ago...

PROGRESSIVE FREEMASONRY USA was founded on October 27, 2011 C.E.

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