Transgender boy's attempt to join Girl Scouts initially rejected

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by smileypants

 

Oh really?

So the LGBT community can stop using the "I was born with it," and "It happens in the animal kingdom" spiel then as well.

Sounds good.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

What? I do not understand the context of this response. Is it even a response or is it just an off-the-wall statement? You seem to have this idea that the LGBT community is just a little group of wackos like PETA trying to take away your penis like it's a steak. These are human beings asking for equal treatment for christ-sake. I wonder how far behind the curve you would have been fifty years ago during the civil rights movement.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


Well made posts, although the discussion
is not about homosexuality as much as it is
about a boy who's parents are putting
a lot of pressure on the girl scouts
to allow there male child into an all girl group.

He can dress up as a girl in the boy scouts.

Girls can be just as mean or meaner then boys can be at that age
so an argument *he will get made fun of in the boy scouts*
dressed as a girl is moot. Because the girls have JUST as
much ability to make fun of him or even more (or even beat him up)
as the boys do.

The fact remains the girl scouts is an all inclusive female only group
and it is not right and is disgusting that the parents are forcing a boy
into an all girl group..

reply to post by smileypants


I read it, and my point still stands.

Some people are born with propensity to rape, murder, cannibalize, steal, etc.

So we should let all that slide because

*they were born that way

*it happens all the time in the animal kingdom.

reply to post by thePharaoh


"surely he doesnt know what "gay" is at 7......and whether he is one or not."

This is absolutely incorrect. I knew I was gay when I was 7. Socialization is a strong tool, and we quickly learn what is considered normal or abnormal. Sexuality is an inherent and strong instinct. You may not know what it means to be gay, but I knew that I was different. I absolutely knew.

Originally posted by smileypants

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by smileypants

 

Oh really?

So the LGBT community can stop using the "I was born with it," and "It happens in the animal kingdom" spiel then as well.

Sounds good.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

What? I do not understand the context of this response. Is it even a response or just an off-the-wall statement. You seem to have this idea that the LGBT community is just a little group of wackos like PETA trying to take away your penis like it's a steak. These are human beings asking for equal treatment for christ-sake.

Rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. are human beings asking for equal treatment as well, for something that came natural to them.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by smileypants

 

I read it, and my point still stands.

Some people are born with propensity to rape, murder, cannibalize, steal, etc.

So we should let all that slide because

*they were born that way

*it happens all the time in the animal kingdom.

I understand a fundamental flaw in your reasoning. You need to know LGBT people for you to truly understand how sick and dangerous that thinking is. These things lead to hate and look around you... kids are killing themselves, people are murdering based on these differences because some people demonize before even trying to understand.

Taken from the OP's first quote;

"I really got upset because my grandson is himself. We've all accepted it," Rose Archuleta told The News. "We've all accepted Bobby as he is, and for this lady to talk to him that way, it was just awful. This lady shouldn't be working with kids."

The vitriolic, sharp-tongued troop leader only identified herself as Mary, and would not divulge her last name, Rose Archuleta said."

The first paragraph very clearly demonstrates that the grandmother doesn't understand that it's no one elses burden to accept her grandson as a transgender child, as the other kids and their parents in the organization are not obligated to. That situation is not what they signed their little girls up for. It's very uncommon (perhaps no prior precedent set even?) So to expect everyone else to treat Bobby "as he is" is exactly what they are doing, from the perspective of Girl Scout members and their families. He IS a boy, regardless of his gender self-identity. Physically he is a Male child. They do not know him, or his family, nor are they aware or required to care that he views himself as a girl.

I wouldn't consider them bad people for simply not knowing the boy, or identifying with his gender dilemma. That's their prerogative. To turn the troop leader into a villain over her rightful place to make calls that accurately represent the concern for safety and integrity over her scouts and on behalf of their parents? The grandmother has no place to make such assertions. No one is required or should be expected to accept her grandson on face value. To the world at large, he's just a young boy who has identity issues. Whether he follows through with a future sex change or not is unknown, but it is most definitely not anyone elses responsibility to alter entire institutions for singular individuals who are undergoing gender confusion, and yes I'm afraid it is gender confusion.

Fact; He's a boy.

Fact; He wants to enter the "Girl Scouts".

Fact; He's too young to understand the implications involved regarding his sexual identity confusion.

Fact; It's manipulative and immoral to use an under-aged young child as an example of sexual identity liberation.

If any of you want to try and create a storm of controversy regarding this topic, may I remind you again that he is not of adult age, and is ill-prepared to make decisions for himself. You would no more hand a loaded gun to a kid than you should demand that this kid understands anything about himself. He doesn't.

At some point a parent has to tell their child "that is wrong". This is happening less and less, and we all know why. It's become politically incorrect for parents to tell their kids right from wrong, and the gay / lesbian community has become extremely aggressive in presenting the idea that CHILDREN know right from wrong, at an early age and without being told so. They've even gone so far as to make people question the tenets or "right or wrong", so much so that parents now are afraid to step up and BE PARENTS.

Discipline has gone out the window. Now it's child abuse.

Correction of gender confusion is now sexism against the gay / lesbian community.

But is that true, even when they're your own damn kids? How far is too far, when you're no longer able to correct your children according to biological correctness? Pretty sad.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kids do not know a damn thing unless you teach it to them.

Apparently this little boy was taught nothing, and had no active Male presence in his upbringing.

He wasn't born gay, but I have no doubt that's the direction he was left to wander towards, and this whole situation has only reinforced that path.

reply to post by yourignoranceisbliss

. To the world at large, he's just a young boy who has identity issues. Whether he follows through with a future sex change or not is unknown, but it is most definitely not anyone elses responsibility to alter entire institutions for singular individuals who are undergoing gender confusion, and yes I'm afraid it is gender confusion.

Brilliant.
To add no one has any *Hate* for this kid as so many
in this thread have accused me of.
I wish this kid the best.
One persons issues should NOT be pushed onto
every other kid because his parents are morons..
This should not be pushed onto EVERY other parent
who has a daughter in the girl scouts who DO NOT agree
with letting a male into there daughters all inclusive girls club.

Originally posted by yourignoranceisbliss
Taken from the OP's first quote;

"I really got upset because my grandson is himself. We've all accepted it," Rose Archuleta told The News. "We've all accepted Bobby as he is, and for this lady to talk to him that way, it was just awful. This lady shouldn't be working with kids."

The vitriolic, sharp-tongued troop leader only identified herself as Mary, and would not divulge her last name, Rose Archuleta said."

The first paragraph very clearly demonstrates that the grandmother doesn't understand that it's no one elses burden to accept her grandson as a transgender child, as the other kids and their parents in the organization are not obligated to. That situation is not what they signed their little girls up for. It's very uncommon (perhaps no prior precedent set even?) So to expect everyone else to treat Bobby "as he is" is exactly what they are doing, from the perspective of Girl Scout members and their families. He IS a boy, regardless of his gender self-identity. Physically he is a Male child. They do not know him, or his family, nor are they aware or required to care that he views himself as a girl.

I wouldn't consider them bad people for simply not knowing the boy, or identifying with his gender dilemma. That's their prerogative. To turn the troop leader into a villain over her rightful place to make calls that accurately represent the concern for safety and integrity over her scouts and on behalf of her parents? The grandmother has no place to make such assertions. No one is required or should be expected to accept her grandson on face value. To the world at large, he's just a young boy who has identity issues. Whether he follows through with a future sex change or not is unknown, but it is most definitely not anyone elses responsibility to alter entire institutions for singular individuals who are undergoing gender confusion, and yes I'm afraid it is gender confusion.

Fact; He's a boy.

Fact; He wants to enter the "Girl Scouts".

Fact; He's too young to understand the implications involved regarding his sexual identity confusion.

Fact; It's manipulative and immoral to use an under-aged young child as an example of sexual identity liberation.

If any of you want to try and create a storm of controversy regarding this topic, may I remind you again that he is not of adult age, and is ill-prepared to make decisions for himself. You would no more hand a loaded gun to a kid than you should demand that this kid understands anything about himself. He doesn't.

At some point a parent has to tell their child "that is wrong". This is happening less and less, and we all know why. It's become politically incorrect for parents to tell their kids right from wrong, and the gay / lesbian community has become extremely aggressive in presenting the idea that CHILDREN know right from wrong, at an early age and without being told so. They've even gone so far as to make people question the tenets or "right or wrong", so much so that parents now are afraid to step up and BE PARENTS.

Discipline has gone out the window. Now it's child abuse.

Correction of gender confusion is now sexism against the gay / lesbian community.

But is that true, even when they're your own damn kids? How far is too far, when you're no longer able to correct your children according to biological correctness? Pretty sad.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kids do not know a damn thing unless you teach it to them.

Apparently this little boy was taught nothing, and had no active Male presence in his upbringing.

He wasn't born gay, but I have no doubt that's the direction he was left to wander away from, and this whole situation has only reinforced that path.

edit on 27-10-2011 by yourignoranceisbliss because: (no reason given)

You seem to think you know what you are talking about..


How exactly would gender confusion be corrected in a young child?

Originally posted by yourignoranceisbliss
He wasn't born gay

Your right, we all choose what sexual orientation we are. I remember back when I decided to be straight. Know what I mean? (This post is sarcasm.)

My problem with this is the kid hasn't gone through puberty yet. He is too young to know where he "feels" like a boy or girl. I loved to go fishing and do boy things when I was a kid. I was born a female so does that make me a lesbian or a girl trapped in a boys body because I was a tomboy? No. I hit puberty and I am very much a female who happens to enjoy hobbies more commonly associated with men, as well as female things (Although, I will never understand the handbag shoe thing)
So what I am trying to say is that just because a boy prefers girly things doesn't make him a girl, and labeling him transgendered before he hits puberty is wrong and destructive.

Black is white and white is black; nothing matters and it's all good. Do it till it hurts. And people wonder WTH happened to society and our country. There it is folks. When you can no long see how screwed up things are, you are officially acclimated. What next? Men and dogs? "Identifying" with a dog? Sure, why not? He's not hurting anybody.

I think the title and your view on this is more disgusting. If the 7 year old girl now wishes to join girl scoutes she can. She is a girl now, if she didn't feel right with her body it is her choice to change. many people that are gay or transgender go through hardships that you and I can't understand. I hope you change your views on people such as this girls situation. But I understand how you feel, I would have been on your side too when I had a closed mind....
Open your mind! Much love blazer =D

Edit: The parents are in the wrong though for changing a boy at such a young WTF were they thinking? you are just a kid then an have no clue about any of that stuff.

Originally posted by smileypants

How exactly would gender confusion be corrected in a young child?

edit on 27-10-2011 by smileypants because: (no reason given)

Is it even correctable? I don't know that it is for sure, it's an unknown issue for all of us. Is it preventable?

Yes, I believe it is. Kids are blank slates. You insert your own ideology and behavioral mannerisms. They are literal sponges, and soak up the world through YOUR eyes.

But back to whether or not it's correctable; if you want your child to be gay, then by all means stand by and allow society to make the decision for you.

The rest of society (that has any common sense or care in the matter) will be paying close attention to their children. Surely if you catch your son playing with dolls, or trying on girls clothing, because he really does not know any better, I'd say there is an opportunity for correction, wouldn't you?

It's idiotic to claim that your child was "born gay" because you weren't paying attention to what they were doing as they grew up. People are totally irresponsible today. Most parents now simply allow to it to continue, because to attempt to stop it would be an admission that they are at fault and missed the opportunity to correct their own kids.

The very height of irresponsibility, and it's sad sad sad that people grow up today with twisted and sad gender confusion, because their parents were too self-absorbed to raise them. Even sadder is the denial of personal responsibility, when their kids are gay / lesbian by the time they hit adulthood.

Anyone who says kids are genetically inclined towards homosexuality / lesbianism, to me, only reflects the extreme irresponsibility issued by their own parents. That's how bad it is now. That's why this problem exists.

Denial that parents are responsible.

Mind you, I have no hatred of gay or lesbian people. They are normal people, and their sexual life is only a small fraction of who they are as people. No one grows up in life with the view that the only thing they have to contribute to society is a sexual agenda.

Has this child needed some sort of constructive surgery cuz he was born with a deformity and the dr made him the wrong sex?, or was he born with normal boy parts and in "his" mind he is a girl...? I can't find a clear answer... Maybe in a former life he was a girl... Anyhow,,, the thing is, little kids do stupid things ALL the time... maybe when he hits puberty he'll say... OMG WTF have I been doing..??? =( little kids don't know that 40 years from now they will like all the things that their parents expect they would like.....He might in his mind grow up to be a lesbian.. and still like girls..
I played with barbie dolls when I was a kid lol.. im straight ( although mine weren't all naky like his with the incision marks.... that's whats really creepy..)
i like art and flowers.. I garden and have green thumbs... and all that kind of what most guys would see as girly stuff and grew up what would be termed normal... it would seem that nothing is really normal anymore huh? =) I would argue that he might grow up perfectly straight... some of these kids are born into this world "hard wired" to push our buttons and boundaries... does a little dude dressing up like a girl mean that he will grow up liking men??????? maybe not... or at least not on his own,, he may end up being called those types of names and that in itself might reinforce that he might be "that" way.. but maybe he was just a weird little kid confused and didn't care if he had a dress on cuz he liked the way it looked or something.... who knows... these cases are increasing and its hard for the parents... bad karma maybe who knows... it's the planet Pluto in Scorpio When these kids are born... this is all the fun this brings... =( Saying this is "DISGUSTING" is a little strong... put yourself in the parents place... how awkward for them to see this kid they LOVE going through this... it is our culture that made boys were pants and girls were dresses and automatically assumed that if a boy wore a dress and liked pinks and red and didn't like sports or couldn't catch balls unless it was with his face... ( that meaning he can't catch and the ball slips out of his hands and hits him in the head you perves... ) that he would automatically like to have relations with other men... this may not be a correct association ... Many men embrace a feminine side of them in a balance with the masculine maleness and are completely straight and the women adore them... hmmm maybe we should come back to this family in a few years and see what happens after he turn 15..

Originally posted by calstorm
My problem with this is the kid hasn't gone through puberty yet. He is too young to know where he "feels" like a boy or girl. I loved to go fishing and do boy things when I was a kid. I was born a female so does that make me a lesbian or a girl trapped in a boys body because I was a tomboy? No. I hit puberty and I am very much a female who happens to enjoy hobbies more commonly associated with men, as well as female things (Although, I will never understand the handbag shoe thing)
So what I am trying to say is that just because a boy prefers girly things doesn't make him a girl, and labeling him transgendered before he hits puberty is wrong and destructive.

The child doesn't just like "girly things, he, himself, identifies as a female. His parents probably wish to hell and back he was a "normal boy". How exactly would you change his mind about his gender? Puberty might be a good time to find out if he is heterosexual, but his gender identity has nothing to do with sexual preference. You should consider yourself lucky that you fit the mold growing up, surely it must have been fortunate for you. This is much more than playing and it is easy to judge others based on your own personal experience, however, it is not accurate. (and I normally would use "she" in respect to the child but I am sure that would just confuse matters more)

Shame on the thread maker.

Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac

Originally posted by yourignoranceisbliss
He wasn't born gay

Your right, we all choose what sexual orientation we are. I remember back when I decided to be straight. Know what I mean? (This post is sarcasm.)

You didn't decide to be born straight.

It was decided for you, and when you looked down at your genitals, you accepted that you are what you see.

This is bullcrap,

I hate how ATS is filled with prejudiced people who CANNOT accept anything OUT OF THE NORM.

As a boy I liked SOME girl toys as well, He may become a teen and grow out of it, WHO CARES?

Get over it...

Originally posted by yourignoranceisbliss

Originally posted by smileypants

How exactly would gender confusion be corrected in a young child?

edit on 27-10-2011 by smileypants because: (no reason given)

Is it even correctable? I don't know that it is for sure, it's an unknown issue for all of us. Is it preventable?

Yes, I believe it is. Kids are blank slates. You insert your own ideology and behavioral mannerisms. They are literal sponges, and soak up the world through YOUR eyes.

But back to whether or not it's correctable; if you want your child to be gay, then by all means stand by and allow society to make the decision for you.

The rest of society (that has any common sense or care in the matter) will be paying close attention to their children. Surely if you catch your son playing with dolls, or trying on girls clothing, because he really does not know any better, I'd say there is an opportunity for correction, wouldn't you?

It's idiotic to claim that your child was "born gay" because you weren't paying attention to what they were doing as they grew up. People are totally irresponsible today. Most parents now simply allow to it to continue, because to attempt to stop it would be an admission that they are at fault and missed the opportunity to correct their own kids.

The very height of irresponsibility, and it's sad sad sad that people grow up today with twisted and sad gender confusion, because their parents were too self-absorbed to raise them. Even sadder is the denial of personal responsibility, when their kids are gay / lesbian by the time they hit adulthood.

Anyone who says kids are genetically inclined towards homosexuality / lesbianism, to me, only reflects the extreme irresponsibility issued by their own parents. That's how bad it is now. That's why this problem exists.

Denial that parents are responsible.

Mind you, I have no hatred of gay or lesbian people. They are normal people, and their sexual life is only a small fraction of who they are as people. No one grows up in life with the view that the only thing they have to contribute to society is a sexual agenda.

Please re-read what you just said...
This is completely anecdotal and has NO basis what-so-ever in science or psychology. You are simply rationalizing your own ignorance of this issue rather than considering that you are hugely undereducated on this subject. You are making wild assumptions that will have you feeling very embarrassed in a few years when you learn a bit more. As you said, we are blanks slates but we are born "knowing" many basic things like how to breathe, and sexual identity is just one of these things. Please, just learn. Get to know some of these people and you will come to a much different conclusion.