Whats your problem with OWS, and why dont you help?

Originally posted by Firefly_
This is not the 50's and 60's.

Irrelevant. the 50's and 60's weren't the 30's, and the 30's weren't the 10's and 20's. None of them were the 1850's. Regardless, movement for social justice tend to follow predictable patterns.

This is now, and while the situation does bear similarities, the fact is the ONLY reason these corporations and banks are allowed to operate in the manner they do is because of GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION. THEY bend to the will of the lobbyists. THEY make the laws, contrary to the people's will. It is THEY who are the enablers. There is NOTHING that can be done unless we get rid of the corruption in GOVERNMENT and get rid of the laws that protect the evil.

I've seen this argument plenty of times on ATS. Please, try to help me see how this makes sense to you. because to me it seems that you're saying we shouldn't question or impede the people and interests that cause the corruption in the first place, but that rather we should keep waiting to find politicians who can't be bought.

One huge intellectual weakness found on ATS (and similar sites) is the core, unshakeable, unquestionable assumption that every problem ever faced by anyone is absolutely always the fault of "government," no matter what. In this case, it's like you're saying the problem isn't the business interests flooding our system with money to buy what they want, but rather the fact that politicians follow the money.

it seems far more logical to me to attack at the root of the problem - cut off the money - than pretend we're going to miraculously find a team of hundreds of perfectly incorruptable legislators.

Our current governments are liars who deceived the people in order to get elected then proceeded to completely screw us all in order to protect their sponsors. If you really think standing outside wall street or the LSE will do anything, you are sadly mistaken. They are under no obligation to do anything the people want, unless the government actually do the right thing for once in their lives.

So... wait. We should depend on an admittedly undependable government to fix the very corruption that makes that government undependable, by pressing legal measures against the people corrupting government?

This strikes me as a confused position. Isn't it simpler to simply strike at those "sponsors," to deny the cash that corrupts the system in the first place?

Whats happening now is a case of taking pain killers for a brain tumour. When what really needs to be done is have the tumour removed.

Part and parcel with the flawed thinking of "It's always government's fault, no matter what" is the notion that the solution is absolutely always LESS government.

A small government is less-able to govern effectively, and is easier to buy. it yeilds more easily to special interests, since less government of course, means less oversight, more collusion, and more money to be had.

This is why, of course, these people causing the corruption - and hte people in office who are the beneficiaries of this corruption - keep telling you that the problem is government and we need less of it. becuase as far as the moneyed interests are concerned, any amount of government is "too much government."

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by backinblack

 

I'm still hoping that they will brush off the establishment left that is trying to take this over and use it as a campaign tool. In the meantime I remain skeptical.

Maybe they can use your help to do this?

I always wonder when I read about this or that being "hijacked" why don't you people just hijack it back?

Focus on what you can agree on and solve it... or "remain skeptical" until its too late.

reply to post by ColCurious


I fully support the OWS movement. I don't support the corporate interests behind it.

There's a big difference. I simply remain skeptical of the end result and the agenda, not the real patriots taking part in it.

~Keeper

As an outsider and from what I've read from various forums and websites, it appears that the reasons why a lot of people don't support the OWS are the same as the reasons why all these OWSers didn't support the Tea Party.
Ideological differences.
And it appears, never the twain shall meet.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by ColCurious

 

I fully support the OWS movement. I don't support the corporate interests behind it.

There's a big difference. I simply remain skeptical of the end result and the agenda, not the real patriots taking part in it.

~Keeper

Alright I misunderstood you, my bad.

Vigilance at all times is important of course.

Well despite what Walking Fox will tell you. I consider myself more on the right side of things(pun unintended) and I don't support the OWS anymore not because its against corporate corruption, but because its been propagated by the hard left and starting to become a liberal movement.

No I don't think Liberals are the "Enemy" I just don't agree with them. So I'm not going to throw support behind a movement that doesn't want me because I ascribe to the right. Its not about them being the enemy, it about them seeing me as the enemy.

I don't support the movement, but I hate to see them getting beaten up by cops. That is not right in anyway.

reply to post by projectvxn


The time for discussion and conversation is over as it has gotten us all absolutely nowhere forward but about 10 steps back. This is fact.

When more then a dozen people are telling you that you are in fact wrong it is time to step back and re-examine your view upon this and realize once and for all that the majority here are correct and you are the one who is wrong. Instead of bringing forth something constructive you are continually posting the rehashed, disproven and debunked a million times over Daily GOP Talking Points. When your service ends and you can't find a job you will be right here along with the rest of us. That's only contingent upon them not getting another multideacade war,

Will you fire upon your fellow countrymen who are protesting currently if ordered to? This is the real test, having the possibility of someone you know and love at the other end of your weapon.

Still trying to issue blatant lies about this movement I see! When will you ever learn? Failure to read and understand what I am saying below means you lack common sense and will spew anything the lamestream media tells you to.

To those that know the truth I apologize for re-posting this constantly but apparently the message seems to get lost because certain nameless individuals cannot see the truth for themselves!

There is no individual founder. We are not representative by the political beliefs of our partner firms and are in NO WAY, SHAPE, SENSE OR FORM a declaration of political allegiance.

I give not a toss for what you or anyone thinks about this as this is the only thing that matters. If we wanted to be a leftist group we would've aligned ourselves firmly with the Dems but that has yet to occur and will not occur.

WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY BILLIONAIRE AS WELL AS ANY POLITICAL PARTY!

You are not a billionaire or a trillionaire so to the people you are sitting here defending do not give a toss for you, your family, your friends or anyone you know. They see you as collateral damage. They own you and by refusing to join up means you've already surrendered your Constitutional rights to The SCUM! To them you are their slave. More then 150,000,000 Americans stand united with this group and the numbers grow by the hour.

No other movement in recent memory has ever been this large. This movement has totally eclipsed that of The Tea Party, The 9/11 Truth Movement, The Anti 43 Rallies, The Vietnam protests combined. This is the largest protest since the Civil Rights Era. Every single time one of our camps is attacked our numbers grow, every report of police brutality this movement grows. Day or week long campouts have occurred in the past but none had the impact nor reach of this one.

STRONG EMPHASIS UPON THE FOLLOWING AND CANNOT BE EXPRESSED ENOUGH :
Unless it comes from Occupy Together, Occupy Everything, #Occupy Wall Street, NYC General Assembly or any of the countless official "Occupy" family of sites it does not speak for this movement and the movement will not endorse any site outside of our family of sites. Got it? Adbusters does not speak for us, Tides does not speak for us, no union speaks for us, The American Socialist Party does not speak for us, The Communist Party does not speak for us neither does any group you dream up of tomorrow! We speak for ourselves!

Hook, line, sinker, SUNK!

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Corporate influence is trying to inject itself but is realizing it's considerably harder to do and near impossible. We are rejecting it at all levels.

MoveOn is trying to align itself with the one I go to but is being met with a helluva lot of hesitation and resistance and we really aren't taking to them to well. MoveOn is the epitome of a leftist organization, if we were solidly left we'd already be fully interlinked with them and have no intention on doing just that.

Heil, we don't even want to be associated with Obama as we have already declared him as useless and being a puppet. He is the Dem's and Left's Golden Boy and we want nothing to do with him, Boehner, Cantor, Biden, Pelosi, Inyoue or any other pol!

Originally posted by Mcupobob
Well despite what Walking Fox will tell you. I consider myself more on the right side of things(pun unintended) and I don't support the OWS anymore not because its against corporate corruption, but because its been propagated by the hard left and starting to become a liberal movement.

No I don't think Liberals are the "Enemy" I just don't agree with them. So I'm not going to throw support behind a movement that doesn't want me because I ascribe to the right. Its not about them being the enemy, it about them seeing me as the enemy.

I don't support the movement, but I hate to see them getting beaten up by cops. That is not right in anyway.

edit on 10/27/2011 by Mcupobob because: (no reason given)

Actually from reading your post it seems that you DO support the movement but you just don't support those that are in the movement..

I'am in full support of the OWS movement, mainly because it is a grassroots organization - Where "almost half of the public thinks the sentiment at the root of the Occupy movement generally reflects the views of most Americans," according to the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll; with "Americans distrust of goverment at its highest level ever."

"With nearly all Americans remaining fearful that the economy is stagnating or deteriorating further, two thirds of the public said that wealth should be distributed more evenly in the country. Seven in 10 Americans think that the policies of Congressional Republicans favor the rich. Two-thirds object to tax cuts for corporations and a similar number prefer increasing income taxes on millionaires."

"On Tuesday, the Congressional Budget Office released a new study concluding that income distribution has become much more uneven in the last three decades."

Source: New York Times, Wednesday, Oct. 26, 2011- New Poll Finds a Deep Distrust of Goverment- by Jeff Zenly and Megan Thee-Brenan

reply to post by Erno86


The way the poll is spun is dead wrong as they are like many people here are trying to continue to lay the blame at the feet of Gov't and not targeting the banks.

How does an Anti Wall Street protest become an Anti Government protest? We are not Anti Government!

Personally, I'm targeting both the U.S. government and the banks including some of the major corporations as the source of our economic woes.


I'am anti-government savvy enough to know that the U.S. government has almost proven itself dysfunctional, because the Republican members of Congress refuse to pass bills that create jobs; because they want to make the Obama administration fail at any cost, whether it destroys the U.S. and the worlds economy or not.

Something is wrong with the U.S. government when "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer," when "the top 1% of earners more than doubled their share of the nation's income over the last three decades."

I'm anti-government - When the CBO report states "that higher-income households got a larger share of the pie, while other households got smaller shares."

reply to post by projectvxn


No one seems to understand anything but violence. So, please do tell....What do you expect?

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by backinblack

 

I did address the points made.

I have my OWN opinion on how I see things.

Isn't that what this type is discussion is?

Or are opinions that agree with each other the only ones welcome?

edit on 27-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

I think you've already found the answer to that question, project.
It is "yes". The mob mentality does not allow otherwise.

You are such a teabagger, right wing, corporate shill, bank lover!

Just kidding, man. Other than most of the Mods, you are one of the very few with sensible posts.

Peace

I have said from the beginning that if they get serious and Occupy 1600 Penn. Ave. and Occupy Capital Hill I will be on board.

Until then they can sit and spin.

Going after the symptom instead of the cause is fruitless.

Originally posted by Firefly_
I dont have a problem with the protests. It is good that people are prepared to do something.

However, the problem I have is that they are going after the wrong people. I completely agree that the financial world is a corrupt mess, but thats because the government allow it to happen. If they did their job and served the people, rather than themselves, there would be no need for protests.

People should be occupying parliament/congress/whatever and forcing the government to change the laws back to when they were fair, or else overthrow them and do it themselves. Until the law is changed, nothing can force the corporations to play ball.

Exactly Firefly.

Sadly, common sense isn't as fun as pulling the "If you don't stand with OWS then something must be wrong with YOU" game.

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Mcupobob
Well despite what Walking Fox will tell you. I consider myself more on the right side of things(pun unintended) and I don't support the OWS anymore not because its against corporate corruption, but because its been propagated by the hard left and starting to become a liberal movement.

No I don't think Liberals are the "Enemy" I just don't agree with them. So I'm not going to throw support behind a movement that doesn't want me because I ascribe to the right. Its not about them being the enemy, it about them seeing me as the enemy.

I don't support the movement, but I hate to see them getting beaten up by cops. That is not right in anyway.

edit on 10/27/2011 by Mcupobob because: (no reason given)

Actually from reading your post it seems that you DO support the movement but you just don't support those that are in the movement..

Those that are "in the movement" ARE "the movement". Hence, he doesn't support the movement. You don't have to love banks to be against an obviously very left wing movement. Just words of caution, if the rantings of some pro-OWS types aren't enough to dissaude you; Beware of ANY "movement." There is no "movement" in all of human history that wasn't twisted, hijacked, manipulated, or evolved into something else than its adherents signed on for. Never. Groupthink is easy to manipulate for individual agendas. OWS will ultimately help the elite, or even if it were to topple the current elite, it would lead to a new, possibly more tyrannical elite. Feel free to ignore the words of caution. They are there to be used or not used as one chooses.

Signed, a proud American who is niether "the 1%" nor "the 99%" no matter how badly some ideologue wants to claim me.

Peace

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by Erno86

 

The way the poll is spun is dead wrong as they are like many people here are trying to continue to lay the blame at the feet of Gov't and not targeting the banks.

How does an Anti Wall Street protest become an Anti Government protest? We are not Anti Government!

Wall Street, the Big Banks, the Fed, and the federal government are all departments of the same establishment entity.
But thank you, as a very prominent ATS voice for OWS, for clarifying that position.

I think everyone on here can agree that we have a major economic problem. Corporate greed and shoddy bankers are part of the problem. For these two reasons, I support OWS. However, if you actually go to the OWS protest on liberty and trinity you'll find tons of reasons why the protestors are there. There are too many mixed messages and no solutions. I just got back from the protest two days ago (as a spectator). There were only 200 protestors there. They looked like bums, played drums all day, smoked dope, and yelled at the cops. I cannot associate myself with these people. I can however associate myself with all the normal looking people (tourists) who were taking pictures, laughing at, and shaking their heads at the protestors. I can't associate myself with them because I'm not a hippie, retarded, or a big time doucher like these protestors that I saw are. Maybe different occupy protests have different idealogues from Normal people with more center ideas. These are the types of protests that I can see myself attending. Have any of you actually been to an occupy protest with normal average every day Americans instead of extremist hippies? These people are not the 99%. They're more like the .000099%.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Are you deliberately ignoring my point, or can you just not see it?

The government are corrupt. The government enable corporations and banks to do what they want, at the expense of the people. The government made the laws. The government are the enablers. This IS their fault, why are you defending them? Getting rid of the corruption in government and law is the first step that needs to be taken. Once that corruption is dealt with, then the corrupt bankers and corporations will be unable to continue their immoral and illegal practices, and the law will be able to deal with them properly. Why cant you see that? As long as the government is corrupt, then there will be no justice. This is why the government must be dealt with, like in Iceland.