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An opposing viewpoint is NOT a valid reason to complain & It takes two to tango

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posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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The ATS Staff have noticed an increase in the number of complaints received from members who seem to think that only their view point is valid in a particular thread.

ATS is an online discussion community.

It is not an exclusive place where you can come and post an opinion and expect it not to be discussed, dissected and/or challenged - in fact those things are the very essence of a discussion board.

If you wish to post your sole opinion without being exposed to alternative viewpoints then there are many blog sites on the internet that will facilitate you happily.

On a similar subject, we have also noticed an increase in "tit for tat" complaints about off topic posts. Frankly - if someone goes off topic and you choose to engage them you are as much a part of the problem as the original off-topic poster. In such cases it is simply easier to not take the bait and choose not to respond, because the more off topic it gets, the more heated things tend to get, and the more heated things tend to get the greater the likelihood is that the board staff will need to take action and if YOU are off topic, that action is likely to be taken against you regardless of who started the issue, because an off topic post is still off topic. (Yes, thats right, even if "you" only said it because....)

In both cases above, what this all boils down to is that - as is often stated - you are responsible for your own posts. No one else is typing them out for you.




posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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I must echo this sentiment strongly!

If you seek to make some kind of declaration; whether you insist it's fact, recognize it as an understanding, know it's opinion, or wonder if it is or isn't common sense, you should expect a response. Otherwise, why even post it? Whether you are expecting affirmation, argumentation, rejection, or inquiries; you have to accept that the right of the responder to craft their thoughts into words is no more or less restricted than your own. No one is obliged to agree... just as no one is obliged to care if you do or don't agree. It is not an ego thing.. it's a discussion.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
It is not an ego thing. it's a discussion.


I hope my post isn't off topic, but I heard something a while ago that brought this point home.

When a child first recognizes that a toy is "his", he identifies with it, saying, "That's MINE." Once he identifies with it, he does what he can to protect it and keep others from taking it or hurting it. That's his ego in action.

As we grow, we start to have this same feeling of identity and ownership with all our possessions and even with our opinions. We identify with our opinions and it's easy to get offended (take it personally) when someone puts out a conflicting opinion because the ego says, "That's my opinion and it's right. To disagree with me is a direct attack on ME."

If we didn't identify so strongly with our opinions, we wouldn't need to protect them. They're just opinions. Everyone has them.

So when I find myself getting upset or feeling argumentative, I look directly at my ego and I can see that I am the cause of my upset. No one else.


Remember, when you get offended, it's your ego throwing a fit.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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I was under the impression there were particular forums where certain hairball topics, hot-button issues, or tenuous notions could be brought up and given leeway from hecklers, dissenters, and those who demand empirical proof of the claims made by the OP. Is this not true?



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by Erongaricuaro
 


It has never been said that there are areas on ATS where opposing viewpoints are not welcome.

There are forums on the board where it is suggested that people approach subjects with an open mind, however that is not an indication that people should simply pat a poster on the back and agree with them wholeheartedly.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Thanks, that seems reasonable. Open-mindedness goes a long way. I guess I had in mind something like the Religion forum (which I have never visited) where someone might be considered out of place demanding proof of GOD or arguing with someone who was sincere in their faith.

I think also I was looking for an example to not discourage an ATS freshman reading this thread from posting his belief or notion in the appropriate forum if it is a tenuous claim he wished to put forth. Others may disagree with them or help point out their folly but there are places where contributers are asked to keep an open mind. Of course outright heckling is not permitted anywhere here either. Thanks for clarifying.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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...ultimately it boils down to that old chestnut - on BOTH sides of the discussion/debate fence: Its not what you say - its how you say it...


There are forums - such as The Gray Area which are perhaps more welcoming of the more speculative and/or less evidence-based opinions...so too other specific forums such as paranormal, aliens and ufos etc where there is an understanding that we perhaps 'play a bit nicer' in how we might discuss or debate something.


But - really - it comes down to HOW you discuss or debate it. And please, lets not pretend to not understand what I mean or pretend to play any innocent card here...everyone who posts here I bet has at least SOME understanding of the basics of civility.
Everyone KNOWS when they are being an ass...so how about people just stop being an ass.



If I could reduce this sites Terms and Conditions to a single request/instruction it'd be this: Don't be an ass


Its called basic respect, its called civility, its called pulling your head in a little and putting away the overinflated keyboard warrior in you aside and actually talking to someone as a person...not as a toy for your own strange amusement.


And again, we all get that...lets not pretend that we don't...

If you can log on here, if you can read and comprehend and type and formulate a response then you do possess the levels of intelligence to get that.



Cheers.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 04:18 AM
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I agree that opposing veiw points are no reason for complaint, but I have recently come across a thread in BB&Q which was an embodiment of a disturbing trend on this website. It was basically a member requesting a board or forum in which individual responding posts, could be labelled with tags like "debunk/rebuttal" so that people who just want to read agreeing posts could sit there happily ignorant of whatever arguments might be arrayed against a given veiwpoint, theory , or ethical suggestion.

Essentialy the suggestion was designed so that someone could post up any old twaddle, and not have to have a debate about it, but just absorb plaudits from persons unwilling to use reason. That this fustrating trend for people to want to avoid the process of peer reveiw and exposure to common sense is enough of an issue to warrant this thread from a MOD here... well , thats pretty disturbing.

We must never be divided in the manner which has been mooted by some members, because it will rift this site to the point of lunacy. The reason I mention that thread, is that it is KEY to the basis of this thread, and shows that some members have forgotten the basic principles under which this site operates, and under which any reasonable discussion operates. There can be no value in a one sided discussion, and no merit in a backslapping excersize. Therefore, dissagreement is HEALTHY on a site like this, and the sharpening of ones intellect against the steel of someone elses is part and parcel of the benifits a site like this offers to its membership.

Opposing veiwpoints are not a valid reason for complaint, but rather one of the best reasons to visit here. No one with a grounding in psychology would tell you that having NO ego is good for you, but some people need to learn to allow thier actual intelligence to lead thier response to a counter argument, rather than allowing thier hind brain to take the wheel and steer the course for them. It may be easier, but it makes em look pretty silly in the long run, and reduces the quality of any post made under that mental circumstance.

I hope that we see less of that as time wears on.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


With the current protests and coming election this is a timely reminder..

In the past I'd reply to these people and it does merely escalate the situation making me just as guilty as them..

Silence and when needed, an alert, is the best response.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 10:43 AM
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It's quite a coincidence seeing this thread (or maybe it isn't) as I have come across this attitude in the chemtrail area (it isn't called that but it's where the threads are).

I don't believe I have yet seen a good case in favour of chemtrails, and so I tend to disbelieve. However I still gist the board daily as the theory interests me and "you never know", that killer argument may appear. However when I have challenged supposed evidence that I know, or believe if one prefers, is wrong then there are cries from one or regulars that "this is a board for people who believe, go away if you don't" which is very sad and completely disregards the reason I am in there!

Good thread



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 10:46 AM
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I always wondered if this happened and sort of assumed it did.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
It's quite a coincidence seeing this thread (or maybe it isn't) as I have come across this attitude in the chemtrail area (it isn't called that but it's where the threads are).

I don't believe I have yet seen a good case in favour of chemtrails, and so I tend to disbelieve. However I still gist the board daily as the theory interests me and "you never know", that killer argument may appear. However when I have challenged supposed evidence that I know, or believe if one prefers, is wrong then there are cries from one or regulars that "this is a board for people who believe, go away if you don't" which is very sad and completely disregards the reason I am in there!

Good thread


Well this is from the OP of one of your threads in that forum so I can kinda see why they'd come out punching.

So, why the fanatical, closed minded obsessive fervour?


You set the tone in your OP so you shouldn't be surprised with similar tones in the replies IMO.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
On a similar subject, we have also noticed an increase in "tit for tat" complaints about off topic posts. Frankly - if someone goes off topic and you choose to engage them you are as much a part of the problem as the original off-topic poster. In such cases it is simply easier to not take the bait and choose not to respond, because the more off topic it gets, the more heated things tend to get, and the more heated things tend to get the greater the likelihood is that the board staff will need to take action and if YOU are off topic, that action is likely to be taken against you regardless of who started the issue, because an off topic post is still off topic. (Yes, thats right, even if "you" only said it because....


Question about those 'off topic' and other warning banners..

It seems to me that those are just as off topic as the posts. I have seen threads where several pages of off topic warnings cover the page. They actually distract just as much from the thread and just draw attention to the posts. Why not just delete the post that was offending rather than draw attention to it with neon banners?



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


As anyone can see, the quote you posted is a question. It was in direct response to the sort of behaviour mentioned in this threads OP so can hardly be cited as a cause for it. It is not attacking anyone or telling them they are wrong. I am asking. I want an explanation that isn't as transparent as a shop window, but we are now going off topic is I'll leave the explanation there.

Feel free to partake on the relevant board if you have something. I would be genuinely interested, but if I smell bull I will say as much, but also I hope, explain why in a reasonable manner.

edit on 27-10-2011 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


That's a great point zorgon.... Not sure if it is an issue here, but some forums, if you delete a post in a thread, the whole thread gets screwy, things like the last page don't load up. That could possibly be why they do things that way, in fact, that is the only rational explaination I can think of. I have seen threads where like 5 pages were nothing but banners lmao, deleting would be much better, if it works without breaking the thread.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
However when I have challenged supposed evidence that I know, or believe if one prefers, is wrong then there are cries from one or regulars that "this is a board for people who believe, go away if you don't" which is very sad and completely disregards the reason I am in there!


Yes its the Geo Engineering area now
Cool that.. because it recognizes the realty that THEY are messing with nature


Don't believe I have seen... "this is a board for people who believe, go away if you don't" but I understand your point. But any controversial topic your going to get extremists on both sides of the fence, those who believe and nothing will sway them, and those who feel the need to call BS on the first post with out even reading the thread or following leads to supporting data...

Both these extremist groups wear these...



as well as these...





After awhile you find out which people will not listen no matter what and you just ignore them
Not always easy because sometimes they task you.. and you want to explain it to them with a baseball bat


Problem with that is they still don't get it and you get sent to the penalty box :

But seriously, since ATS linked up with facebook, twitter and now google +1 you can expect more of this. I understand that hit counts make money, lots of it, but in the end you have quantity over riding quality and for every well expressed opinion no matter on which side, you will have a hundred nonsense posts.

The noise over signal ratio has certainly been declining
edit on 27-10-2011 by zorgon because: No idea..this was EDITED? OH NO has to be THTB that did it




posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Erongaricuaro
 


Good heavens, no!! The religion forum is chock-full of people demanding empirical proof of God existence.

No forum is closed to the skeptical mind. Some members might not welcome them, but ATS as a whole does.

Speaking solely as a member here, and not staff, ATS wouldn't be near as much fun as it is without the give and take of differing opinion.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Very good point you make there.


Just from a Staff perspective:

- Those Off-Topic Banners are part of a process of things that happen.
As those who have received an Off-Topic, or Manners or whatever will know there is also a system-generated u2u that is sent to the poster of the reply/thread that is removed. This alerts that person to action taken and the means of which that action can be questioned. It provides the poster with an idea of what specific reply of theirs was deemed 'Off Topic' or whatever.
If staff merely went in and editted out the reply...leaving only that small italicised *edit note* then there is no real way of the poster being informed that their reply has been removed or editted or otherwise. Well, there is: They could happen across it and notice it, or we staff could u2u that person to inform them of what we have done and why.
Heres the thing...there are a multitude of staff actions that may be required during the period a staff member is logged in and *working*...so I guess while that system-generated u2u may come across as very impersonal...it is unfortunately/fortunately depending on your point of view somewhat of a 'time-saver' thing. Trust me, there are some days I/we have had to action so much that I could spend ALL day simply sending u2us to people if the process was purely via the 'edit and u2u them' route.

That may also come across as a tad lazy.
Please bear in mind that while staff are purely voluntary we do tend to give a decent level of time and energy to doing whatever we can to assist...and like any person we try to do things well and, to be honest, with as little potentially unnecessary spending of energy as possible - theres a whole lot to do some days...so yes indeed if we can do things a bit quicker then thats just a natural human trait to be more inclined to do so.


The other part of those Warning Tags processes is the attributing of a 'points penalty' or otherwise depending on what type of Terms and Conditions violation it may have been deemed.
Again, we staff (SuperMods and Admins) do have the ability to manually deduct - and add - *points*...though again that can be a time consuming process if we had to do so each and every time.

Perhaps a better answer would be if the Warning Tags weren't so 'big and bold' so as to be so distracting inthread.
Potentially a far better alternative answer would be if people just kept on-topic and remained within the Terms and Conditions...




Cheers.



posted on Oct, 27 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Good post, you are right of course and I do try not to wear those items, maybe not always successfully, but nobody's perfect, not even me



posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 09:10 PM
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The intention of this thread is fine, but until people learn some logical thinking, this is pretty futile. I see almost everyone replying with nothing but a bunch of fallacies, even moderators. When this is happening, there is no way that things will stay on-topic or civil. It is a perfectly valid reason to complain when someone is misrepresenting your point and refuting what you did not say, and then pretending they did refute what you said.

People might only be responsible for their own post, but, how can you expect to have a sane discussion if people are not even on the same page? And that is the main issue around here, and not the going off-topic. Going off-topic is an effect of this.

I've quit so-called discussions tons of times, because after explaining the same thing 10 times in different ways, people still misrepresent my position and "refute" what was never said. And after that, they even call themselves the "victors" because I supposedly ran away and didn't have a counter argument. It's extremely frustrating. That is not an opposing viewpoint nor a challenge nor anything like that. It's an irrelevant remark, and complaints in this case are more than justifiable.

But meh, whatever.. Wouldn't be surprised if people misrepresent what I'm saying here either..









 
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