This Is Just For Those Who Oppose The OWS Protest!!

reply to post by macman


Learn the difference?

I have done the same, thank you very much, but have taken different lessons from it than you.

I happen to care about my fellow human beings, apparently you do not.

I have worked my way off the street, and I mean worked hard, four different times without seeking or accepting welfare or other handouts, leaving them for the more desperate.

I have built (as an electrician), fed (as a shrimper), protected (as a combat veteran), taught (as a college instructor), and raised (as a surrogate father and grandfather) the people of this nation. I have striven my entire life to make it better, not just for me, but for everyone, including ignorantly selfish asshats like you.

Look, the country and world is in a horrid mess, caused by excessive wealth accumulation by too few individuals. Those individuals use that wealth to corrupt governments everywhere so they may accumulate yet more wealth and power. It has to end.

Offer a constructive solution, rather than just crowing "I got mine, screw you lazy bastards".

Conservatives frequently cite human nature as greedy, violent and selfish.

I disagree: most humans I've met are loving, caring, nonviolent, and unselfish.

Sociopaths, however, are all the above and more. So when you say "humans are...", check first and make sure you aren't just talking about yourself, and projecting it upon the rest of us.

Originally posted by apacheman

I happen to care about my fellow human beings, apparently you do not.

Yep, I forgot. The moral highroad award goes to the person wanting the Govt to give more to the have not, and take more from the haves.
Govt handouts and wealth caps are not caring about your fellow man. It is a blind path towards dictating what some must do for others.

I have worked my way off the street, and I mean worked hard, four different times without seeking or accepting welfare or other handouts, leaving them for the more desperate.

Nope, I don't believe it.
Your ideals and suggestions do not warrant such things to be possible.

I have built (as an electrician), fed (as a shrimper), protected (as a combat veteran), taught (as a college instructor), and raised (as a surrogate father and grandfather) the people of this nation. I have striven my entire life to make it better, not just for me, but for everyone, including ignorantly selfish asshats like you.

You worked to provide a service, that paid you. How is that providing for me?
And please, please don't ever pretend that you raised me as a surrogate anything.
What were you then, father time? Give me a break. You have a sever superiority complex to suggest you raised a nation.
Asshat? Now that is funny. What are you, 10? Should we meet at the monkey bars after school?

Look, the country and world is in a horrid mess, caused by excessive wealth accumulation by too few individuals. Those individuals use that wealth to corrupt governments everywhere so they may accumulate yet more wealth and power. It has to end.

No, the world is in a mess due to rampant uncontrolled Govts drunk on power. They think that printing money, to pay for social services, which garners votes will just allow them to stroll along forever.
You suggest that the wealthy corrupt the Honest Schoolboy Politician? Are you serious??
Sorry, but at east I can see that the Govt is corrupt due to people wanting power.

Offer a constructive solution, rather than just crowing "I got mine, screw you lazy bastards".

Please provide me where I have stated this.
Exact quotes are a plus, as it would show that you just don't pull crap out of your behind.

Conservatives frequently cite human nature as greedy, violent and selfish.

I disagree: most humans I've met are loving, caring, nonviolent, and unselfish.

What are you talking about?

Sociopaths, however, are all the above and more. So when you say "humans are...", check first and make sure you aren't just talking about yourself, and projecting it upon the rest of us.

Oh noes, you called me not human. What shall I do???
I am here on this earth to provide for myself and my family, not you and yours.

Originally posted by apacheman
To hear them tell it, you could plunk them anywhere in the world flat broke and they'd be upwardly mobile in mere days or weeks.

They seem to believe they have an inherent immunity to bad luck or catastrophic illness striking their family.

Those they look down upon so harshly are lazy, filthy, druggie commie/socialist freeloaders who lack ambition, morals, and a work ethic, solely responsible for their plight.

To OWS: what you/we should be demanding

Is that what you think? No I believe life is hard and not fair. I believe if I want something bad enough I will accomplish it and I will not sit and wait for someone to do it for me. If life throws me a lemon I make lemonade. I have dealt with sickness and loss in my life so has everyone else some more than others but again that is life. I have done the blame game in the past and it gets you NOWHERE.

What man is a man that does not make the world better? Find your world(yourself, your family).you make it better.

reply to post by macman


What on earth makes you think that anyone who supports OWS also supports the government?

That's mind-boggling.

All I am calling for is a simple set of rules that will do the least harm for the most good, and the only thing you offer to discredit it is that it somehow infringes upon your right to make more than a billion dollars.

Get a clue: you will never, ever be a billionaire. If you aren't currently worth more than half a billion, your chances of achieving that is zip. So how would that limit truly effect you?

I'm still waiting for you to offer constructive plans to change the mess we are in.

Telling people to work harder doesn't cut it.

reply to post by apacheman


I notice you've brought your uneducated ideas to another thread.

You can not limit how much property someone has, which includes money. That's the end of the story. You can debate it all you want, but the fact of the matter is that even if you wanted it, even if you amassed a following of idiotic like minded individuals, you wouldn't even be able to vote on it.

Your ignorance isn't going to cut it.

reply to post by the4thhorseman


I am trying to make it better.

I work as hard or harder than anyone I know. I'd wager you would fail to keep up with me at any task set. So what? How hard people work has very little correlation with success or failure. Some of the hardest-working people I've known would be judged failures by a lot of folks, and every small-business owner whose business failed that I've known worked their asses off. Luck has nearly as much to do with success as hard work. Family connections and access to capital mean a whole lot more.

Please stop looking at merely individual situations and broaden your vision to see as much of the whole as possible.

The system is screwed and failing before our eyes, and working hard or harder at jobs doesn't make the system better.

The system must change, and it will, history show us this over and over and over again.

The only questions are how violently the change will occur and will the change be for the better, make life worse, or be a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?

I'm trying my damnedest to make sure things change for the better by offering concrete proposals to effect that change instead of merely complaining about how bad things are.

Criticize my proposals all you like, but please offer equally concrete proposals to replace them if you don't like them, bearing in mind that my proposals deal with systemic change, not individual change.

reply to post by GringoViejo


Of course it can be limited, it is done every day.

What is a pay scale but a limit on wages?

What are zoning laws but limits on what you can do with you property?

Your ignorance, no it isn't ignorance, it is refusal to acknowledge reality over ideology, blinds you to the limits we as a people place on virtually every aspect of life.

I'm glad you are content with the world as it is, enjoy it while it lasts, for it won't last much longer as it is.

OWS is an expression of global discontent with the structures currently extant. It may go away, but the discontent will continue and grow until the tipping point is reached, and then there will be all hell to pay throughout the world. I'd prefer not to see that.

Limiting individual wealth to a more than reasonable figure, as distasteful as it seems to be to you, is infinitely preferable to the alternative: violent overthrow of the system that allows it, only to be replaced with a slightly different system that allows a slightly different group to pursue the same thing to the same end.

I don't know, maybe you enjoy that kind of anarchic transition, but I sure as hell don't.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by the4thhorseman

 

I am trying to make it better.

You're doing it wrong.

I work as hard or harder than anyone I know.

I doubt it. I can't say for a fact, like I can say you've never taught a college course at an accredited university, but I doubt it nonetheless.

I'd wager you would fail to keep up with me at any task set.

Based on our interaction so far, it would seem this is also highly debatable

So what?

Are you asking me to rationalize your random babbling?

How hard people work has very little correlation with success or failure.

This is the single most idiotic thing I have ever been unfortunate enough to lay eyes on.

Some of the hardest-working people I've known would be judged failures by a lot of folks, and every small-business owner whose business failed that I've known worked their asses off.

What do you call a business when it fails? DING DING DING! Yes, that's right folks, a failure.

Luck has nearly as much to do with success as hard work. Family connections and access to capital mean a whole lot more.

In some cases, but just because you are not capable of success doesn't mean you get to change the rules.

Please stop looking at merely individual situations and broaden your vision to see as much of the whole as possible.

This is supposed to be ironic, right?

The system is screwed and failing before our eyes, and working hard or harder at jobs doesn't make the system better.

Who said working harder at jobs makes the system better?

The system must change, and it will, history show us this over and over and over again.

Not the way you want it to change.

The only questions are how violently the change will occur and will the change be for the better, make life worse, or be a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?

Yes, i remember, give up the money or die, blah blah blah. Educate yourself child.

I'm trying my damnedest to make sure things change for the better by offering concrete proposals to effect that change instead of merely complaining about how bad things are.

Well, if you're here to offer concrete solutions, feel free to start offering them at any time.

Criticize my proposals all you like, but please offer equally concrete proposals to replace them if you don't like them, bearing in mind that my proposals deal with systemic change, not individual change.

If you're asking for equally concrete proposals, we don't really have to offer you anything. Take a look around the website. Use the search feature. There are many, many, actually well thought out, proposals available to read.

But for a start we could impose term limits on congress and lower the salary from around 200k a year. Its rational and constitutional. Already its 100% better than your proposal.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

Of course it can be limited, it is done every day.

What is a pay scale but a limit on wages?

What are zoning laws but limits on what you can do with you property?/

You have the right to be compensated for work, you don't have the right to unlimited compensation. Someone is paying you for a service. You don;t already own the money you are compensated with, so you don't get to say how much you get.

If you have a house, and got a loan to get it, you don't own it outright and never will. You don't have the sole right to say what can or can't be done with it. You are more of a property manager than an owner.
Allodial title

Your ignorance, no it isn't ignorance, it is refusal to acknowledge reality over ideology, blinds you to the limits we as a people place on virtually every aspect of life.

I'm glad you are content with the world as it is, enjoy it while it lasts, for it won't last much longer as it is.

You assume people who don't agree with your ideas is against change.

OWS is an expression of global discontent with the structures currently extant. It may go away, but the discontent will continue and grow until the tipping point is reached, and then there will be all hell to pay throughout the world. I'd prefer not to see that.

Limiting individual wealth to a more than reasonable figure, as distasteful as it seems to be to you, is infinitely preferable to the alternative: violent overthrow of the system that allows it, only to be replaced with a slightly different system that allows a slightly different group to pursue the same thing to the same end.

By slightly, you mean fundamentally. It is an infringement on individual rights, it is irrelevant. case closed.

I don't know, maybe you enjoy that kind of anarchic transition, but I sure as hell don't.

There is a lot you obviously don't know.

Originally posted by the4thhorseman

Originally posted by Propulsion

They need to remember that they are humans that can bleed, and that they have family members.

WHAT Idiot said this?! I am not a violent man anymore. I have been able to control my anger and rage by putting my aggression into other things...BUT THIS! has really gotten my blood boiling again. I will say this IF I hear that any OWS touching ones family member of the police, I will .............

I have a pretty good idea WHO put out that particular post, but I won't give out profile name. Just don't need the bull$h!t! I have not had ONE reply other than yours about the post. The OP has had nothing to say about it. I am seeing more and more people walk away from the OWS movement just because of the immaturity of a lot of the folk who so think it’s the best thing to have happened since sliced bread. At first I thought it was a pretty good move against big money, but the more I see, the more disgusted I am! Some say that it is only one or two who are displaying this kind of behavior. Maybe so, but WHY do most of the OWS followers here on ATS sit back and defend the same people who are writing this stuff? They don’t say anything, which in turn makes them an accessory to the crime! I have seen this behavior on most of the OWS threads. Maybe the OP can explain why this is. I personally believe “age” has a lot to do with it. Most grown adults don’t act this way. At least not the ones over 30….

Originally posted by apacheman

What on earth makes you think that anyone who supports OWS also supports the government?

Geez, I don't know. Maybe because all of the focused efforts shown are against banks and businesses.

All I am calling for is a simple set of rules that will do the least harm for the most good, and the only thing you offer to discredit it is that it somehow infringes upon your right to make more than a billion dollars.

Yep, rules that you, Lord Apacheman gets to make because you say so.
You really, really really need to get over this superiority complex. You don't know what is best for anyone else except yourself.

Get a clue: you will never, ever be a billionaire. If you aren't currently worth more than half a billion, your chances of achieving that is zip. So how would that limit truly effect you?

How do you know that I am not a billionaire?
Regardless, it is still you telling someone else what they can and can't do with their property.

I'm still waiting for you to offer constructive plans to change the mess we are in.

For starters worry less about others, and more about yourself.
Stop being envious of what others have.

Telling people to work harder doesn't cut it.

And why not?

Originally posted by reuben

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, I've always said that socialism is a great idea that will never work.

You are saying that capitalism works?

No, I don't say capitalism works, certainly not in its current form. However, neither does pure socialism. I think that the mixed system that you are speaking of is what we are heading towards.....However, there are going to be problems with that as well.

reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac


Basically, yes, that is what it boils down to.

I'm positive that most people here are making good points on both sides of this discussion, but I still makes me a bit sad how selfish and greedy we all really are, and the lengths we're capable of reaching.

Since the very beginning, no human collective has ever wanted to accept that we are on a path to destroy ourselves, indirectly of course. Money alone is greed on display, but too many are in acceptance with its supposed necessity for our journey to happiness, or stability at least.

It's all fu**ed up, and we all know it too. I'm not against the OWS movement, but I do think that all situations can be handled differently.

In fact, I'm all for it, because I see what it has started. Awareness, curiosity, opinions; and most importantly, discussion are what it has started.

A man once said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by the4thhorseman

 

I am trying to make it better.

I work as hard or harder than anyone I know. I'd wager you would fail to keep up with me at any task set. So what? How hard people work has very little correlation with success or failure. Some of the hardest-working people I've known would be judged failures by a lot of folks, and every small-business owner whose business failed that I've known worked their asses off. Luck has nearly as much to do with success as hard work. Family connections and access to capital mean a whole lot more.

Please stop looking at merely individual situations and broaden your vision to see as much of the whole as possible.

The system is screwed and failing before our eyes, and working hard or harder at jobs doesn't make the system better.

The system must change, and it will, history show us this over and over and over again.

The only questions are how violently the change will occur and will the change be for the better, make life worse, or be a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?

I'm trying my damnedest to make sure things change for the better by offering concrete proposals to effect that change instead of merely complaining about how bad things are.

Criticize my proposals all you like, but please offer equally concrete proposals to replace them if you don't like them, bearing in mind that my proposals deal with systemic change, not individual change.

Keep up with you at any task? I will wager you on that..Just because you work hard doesn't mean you will be a success in your ventures. People fail all of the time. Just because you think your idea is good doesn't mean investors will.

So you are saying the system if screwed up because people work hard and fail? Who determines if someone is a failure? You..ME or the individual that is attempting the task? Failures only happen when you give up and blames others. Remember I have been down the blame game path before...I have broadened my vision and I see a country that use to be my home.

I am NOT the 99% and I am NOT the 1%...I am ME..I am required to pay my taxes and I AM the last one helped. IF anything I SHOULD BE the one protesting

Originally posted by MrGrimm
A man once said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

Nietzsche is kind of like Hitler, I don't know if he is someone whose quotes I'd throw around. However, it is relevant. He actually stated something I agree with. That is just like Hitler once wrote, "What luck for the world's leaders that the masses do not think." Another statement that I completely agree with.

I often say, "Never mind the messenger for he or she is likely to be corrupt, mind the messeage." I have believed that for quite some time.

Originally posted by MrGrimm

Since the very beginning, no human collective has ever wanted to accept that we are on a path to destroy ourselves, indirectly of course.

I'm not all too certain that it is necessarily indirectly. I do believe that there are pockets of people, particularly within the elite, who would have the complete annihilation of society. Why? For the very reason you mentioned, greed and the desire to always "be correct."

We live in a society where every person, religion, political ideology, philosophy et cetera, claim to be the "holders of truth." When in truth, no one holds that key. As Robert Frost said, "We dance around a ring and suppose. It the middle sits the secret that knows." No truer words have ever been spoken or written.

Humans, by their very nature, are egotistical. Everyone is blabbering and writhering about as if they are the "key holders." Truth is, we asa a species have not even scraped the surface of what is true.

Originally posted by MrGrimm
A man once said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

Nietzsche, for all the love, honor, praise and worshipping of him by the dictator Hitler, was finally deemed a nutcase, packed into a straight jacket and sent to a mental institute.

If you still love quotes by people of his kind, go to an asylum today and I am sure you will have your fill, while others more serious ponder and search for the right way, the correct way and the only way, through learning from the religio-socio-political and economic mistakes made by our ancestors to bravely set and chart our progress and evolution for ourselves and the next generations.

We are a race that had only progress by learning from our errors and correcting them, since our civilisation began out of the jungles

I'm so tired of hearing people whining about how much they don't like OWS and the protesters.

If you don't like what they're doing and don't want to participate, then find a way of contributing in your own way.

I haven't participated in the protests for my own reasons, but I'm advocating against using credit cards and boycotting corporate giants for the holidays.
See thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

For the past couple of years, I've been protesting the banks by conducting my own Occupy Residence. I stand firm against the bank taking my home through illegal measures and I'm standing firm.
I'm proud to say I'm winning!

So, if you don't want people to think you're a *gasp* "dirty hippy and/or believe the protests have been hijacked, then that's your opinion. I highly suggest you begin keeping your thoughts to yourself and instead use your energy towards something productive that can accomplish something, anything!!!

Start a thread on what YOU would like to see. Submit YOUR ideas.
Do anything but complain, complain, complain!!!

Originally posted by Afterthought
I'm so tired of hearing people whining about how much they don't like OWS and the protesters.

If you don't like what they're doing and don't want to participate, then find a way of contributing in your own way.

I haven't participated in the protests for my own reasons, but I'm advocating against using credit cards and boycotting corporate giants for the holidays.
See thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

For the past couple of years, I've been protesting the banks by conducting my own Occupy Residence. I stand firm against the bank taking my home through illegal measures and I'm standing firm.
I'm proud to say I'm winning!

So, if you don't want people to think you're a *gasp* "dirty hippy and/or believe the protests have been hijacked, then that's your opinion. I highly suggest you begin keeping your thoughts to yourself and instead use your energy towards something productive that can accomplish something, anything!!!

Start a thread on what YOU would like to see. Submit YOUR ideas.
Do anything but complain, complain, complain!!!

Wait I thought OWS was supposed to "open" our minds and give us a voice? Just as the OWS people have a voice on things they don't like so do I and everyone else on this forum. So no I will not keep my thoughts to myself. Thank you though for your concern....