Man in Scotland tied to lampost and burned to death, awful shocking murder

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
That's horrible. I really hope you people in Great Britain start giving two fingers up to your government and start arming yourselves with firearms. Seriously. It's time you guys stop this yob culture that's growing over there.

I know what you're saying but giving Scots firearms would be a recipe for disaster, honestly

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

Yes, and I'd be willing to bet that if he lived in a country where guns were legally available, that his attacker(s) would also possess similarly legally acquired firearms.

I don't quite see the rationale of your point.

I didn't think it was that unclear. The young man was being beat and was then murdered. I would assume he was probably wishing for a means to defend himself and deter his attackers at the time.

Additionally, criminals don't care about laws, by definition. When you disarm the law-abiding, you have ONLY disarmed the law-abiding. Criminals can and still will get guns if they need and want to...but when victims are disarmed, firearms become less necessary.

Are you serious ?

The UK has around 600-700 murders per year, whereas the US has well over 10,000. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that - even factoring in the difference in population - you are far more likely to be murdered in the US than you are in the UK.

The US is the most violent country in the Western world. It's also the Western country where guns are most freely available.

Please read my full post you're responding to, I referred specifically to the overall crime rate and that I would need to look into violent crimes directly. Regardless, you'd do well to remember that firearm ownership and accessibility are not the only differences between our nations, nor are homicide rates consistent across the entire nation.

Take care.

Originally posted by scotsdavy1
reply to post by Ramcheck

 

so you stay in a beautiful place that has no fights or anything in it i take it?
anyway, as usual in this forum, this is getting away from what the original poster was saying about what happened.
things like this has never happened in ayrshire for as long as i know and i hope the killer or killers get caught and punished,.

Well far from it to be honest. But this thread is about something that happened in Ayrshire.

reply to post by Ramcheck


well i do live in ayrshire so know what i am talking about as i have stayed here all of my life which is over 50 years................

Originally posted by scotsdavy1
reply to post by Ramcheck

 

well i do live in ayrshire so know what i am talking about as i have stayed here all of my life which is over 50 years................

Well you should know better than me then. Not doing yourself any favours by saying that. Maybe you're the Chevy Chase to my Justin Beiber

reply to post by Ramcheck


i have nothing to hide and don`t care who know it............no-one can hide even if they wanted to in this day and age..............

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by khimbar
Speak for yourself, I'd CCW if I could and I'm in the UK.

Then you fall into the ''fearful, paranoid coward'' category of most American gun-owners.

Why, may I ask, would you wish to carry a concealed firearm on your person during your day-to-day business ?

What possible benefit would you have from doing so ? Aren't your fists good enough protection ?

Well I could answer because 'I want to' and it should be answer enough but since I doubt that will satisfy you...

My gf does wing chun kungfu. Her sifu traces his line to Ip Chun and Ip Man. He's very, very good. He has said to her that realistically if you're attacked by more than 3 or 4 people your best chance is some kind of weapon. So no, fists are not good enough protection.

I note you can tell peoples psychological states purely from one observation, may I ask where you got your professional medical qualification? Or were the inverted commas around fearful, paranoid coward to exempt these views from being your own?

Oh and Holmes regularly carried a Webley revolver I seem to recall. Will you now be changing your username so as not to be linked with him, as surely he would be a 'fearful, paranoid coward' too.

Originally posted by Praetorius
I didn't think it was that unclear. The young man was being beat and was then murdered. I would assume he was probably wishing for a means to defend himself and deter his attackers at the time.

I thought that was your point, but I was struggling to see how you rationally worked that out.

If guns were legal, then the attackers are just as likely to possess a firearm as their victim. If the young man had pulled out a gun, then his attackers would have also. In fact, with the criminal's element of surprise factor, then it's highly unlikely that the victim would still be possessing a firearm after his attackers stole the march on him.

Originally posted by Praetorius
Additionally, criminals don't care about laws, by definition.

Complete and utter nonsense. Potential criminals most definitely care about laws, so as they can carry out a risk assessment before embarking on any criminal behaviour.

Illegal possession of a firearm is a mandatory 5-year prison sentence in the UK, so you'd have to be a complete clown to carry a weapon, unless you were undertaking the most serious of crimes.

Originally posted by Praetorius
When you disarm the law-abiding, you have ONLY disarmed the law-abiding.

Er...no.

There's no ''disarming the law-abiding''. You criminalise the unlicensed possession of certain weapons, and thus the subsequent possession of these weapons becomes a criminal offence.

As has been mentioned many times before, it is perfectly common for British citizens to legally own a firearm. I, myself, am eligible to acquire and legally own a firearm, but I don't bother, because I don't need one.

Originally posted by Praetorius
Criminals can and still will get guns if they need and want to...but when victims are disarmed, firearms become less necessary.

Yet, someone is murdered by firearms every 8-9 days in the UK, yet in the US - where guns run rampant - someone is murdered by firearms every 58 minutes.

Originally posted by Praetorius
Please read my full post you're responding to, I referred specifically to the overall crime rate and that I would need to look into violent crimes directly.

Please think about your comments. Crime-rates are non-comparable between different countries, because of many factors:

1. What constitutes a crime between varying jurisdictions.

2. The cultural attitudes towards particular crimes.

3. The sentencing that is levelled towards convicted criminals.

4. How regularly crimes are reported. This includes the general confidence in the police and the level of victim support which is made available.

5. How crime figures are defined, collected and collated between countries.

Originally posted by Praetorius
Regardless, you'd do well to remember that firearm ownership and accessibility are not the only differences between our nations, nor are homicide rates consistent across the entire nation.

Yes, there are many more differences between our nations, but I get the feeling that you're insinuating something a little bit unsavoury...

reply to post by Ramcheck


Hehe aye,mate of mine used to say "Ayrshire,Twinned With Deliverance!"

But before you all get a bad impression of Ayr,this could have happened anywhere in the UK

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes


There's no ''disarming the law-abiding''.

How was the confiscation of legally held guns in 1998 not disarming the law abiding?

'More than 160,000 handguns have been surrendered by their owners since new laws were introduced following the Dunblane massacre, the UK Government has revealed'.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Essan
This is the sort of murder you expect to occur in the US - what with the KKK and inner city gangs. Or maybe South Africa. But not Britain. Quite shocking.

I have to disagree. Yes, we have our share of murders, but they don't typically involve people being tied to lamp posts and burned alive, especially not by the KKK..... Dude, this is 2011, not the 1960's.

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
Uh, yeah, okay. British Violence

Linking to an article in the Daily Fail ? That is a fail in itself.

Once again, crime figures can not be compared between countries, due to a multitude of different factors.

For example, despite the cliche of the ''bumbling British bobby'', the British police are one of the most efficient police forces in the world. Add to that, the fact that victim support is another highly focused area within the British criminal justice system, then crimes are going to be reported far more than countries who have a social taboo about certain crimes. Also, the statistical analysis of crimes varies greatly between countries.

Originally posted by khimbar
How was the confiscation of legally held guns in 1998 not disarming the law abiding?

Because it legally disarmed law-abiding citizens and criminals in equal measure.

The criminality - or not - of each citizen was an irrelevance. The enacted law merely made it a criminal offence to possess a handgun. No big deal.

Hmmmm noone is discussing the topic at all. Who knows how this happened, he may have been drunk and unable to defend himself or hit from behind without hearing them first so no protection would have saved him.

Guns dont kill people, robbers do.

Tis a sorry time for his friends and family, as said Im from Scotland and I know too well how chavs can be, however they are usually all mouth .. so its a shock to hear of such news.

Fingers crossed justice can be served, however i'll go on record to say Iam thankful that people in the UK have enough common sense (most of us) to not want to own a gun for 'safety' - The concept of owning a gun to protect yourself is a sheer dis believe of lack of personal security, which has been justified with the old 'Id like to protect my family and kids.' That is a very poor excuse to justify owning a gun.

However, Iam no one's mother so I can only give an opinion as apposed to a lecture.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
I really hope you people in Great Britain start giving two fingers up to your government and start arming yourselves with firearms.

For goodness sake, can't you Americans keep your fearful, paranoid hard-on for guns in check for 1 minute ?

I'll spell it out for you: w-e d-o-n'-t n-e-e-d o-r w-a-n-t g-u-n-s. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Wait a minute... He has a fair point.. The vile scumbags that did this probably would have pooped bricks and thought twice if faced with a gun..

Originally posted by clintdelicious
Hmmmm noone is discussing the topic at all. Who knows how this happened, he may have been drunk and unable to defend himself or hit from behind without hearing them first so no protection would have saved him.

Yeah I know we've not got a lot to go on at the moment, still a developing story.

reply to post by navy_vet_stg3


did the right to bear arms help mathew shepard ?

reply to post by Internet Explorer


a scotsman a firearm and a bottle of buckfast = a disaster waiting to happen

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
reply to post by Internet Explorer

 

a scotsman a firearm and a bottle of buckfast = a disaster waiting to happen

Having just finished a bottle of the aforementioned 'red wine based apparetif' or high-caffeine treat, I can guarantee you this is a fact. If an independent Scots army were recruiting tomorrow I'd be first in line.