Do chistians see a prophetic "use" for Israel and the jews?

page: 1
6
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:35 AM
link   
Over the last few years, I have come across several christians who express strong support for the state of Israel and its jewish population. I find it strange that such an alliance exists between two religious factions that are at serious odds with each other, on a theological basis.(1)

On one hand, we have the christians who find fault with the jews who reject the messiah. And on the other we have the jews who find blasphemous the christian ideas that God is a trinity and that Jesus is the messiah and in some cases, God himself. (This stands regardless of how you individually interpret scripture to "solve" this.)

Ironically, despite the serious theological incompatibility between the two factions, christians seem to feel they must remain allied to the jews and the jewish state on strictly theological grounds. i.e- through an understanding of scriptures such as "jews are chosen"(2)

It is indeed astonishing how christians, who label everything that is not christian as "satanic" or "evil" etc, openly express support for a religious faction that outright rejects/insults Jesus, the central figure of christian theology and opposes every doctrines central to christian theology.

It appears to me that christians only NEED "Israel" to exist in the 21st century only because it would mean they are closer to biblical prophecy coming true... with all its wars and plagues, finally culminating in them (christians) finally being "saved". In other words, christians seem to find the existence of the Israeli state as a needed stepping stone, or a pawn for eschatolagical events to come to pass.
No Israeli state = no apocalypse

The modern(3) christian support for the stat of Israel / jews is not because of any special love for the jewish people, that is NOT grounded in theology / eschatology.


Points up for discussion...

1. How do you, as a christian, find it ok to support a religious faction that outright rejects Jesus, the central figure of christianity?
2. On what non-theological basis would you say you support Israel / the jewish people?
3. Do you feel that the state of Israel and the jews would become useless in the prophetic scheme of things once Jesus returns ?
4. As a supporter of Israel and the jews, how do you feel about them adamantly rejecting Jesus?

As before, I would appreciate it if posters do not simply post scripture/their interpretation of it to explain away the issues raised. Open discussion is welcome, so long as scripture quotes do not outweigh objectivity.
Please stick to the points highlighted for discussion and let this not disintegrate into another thread discussing middle eastern politics with no relevance to OPs subject matter. Thank you.



(1) I am in no way trying to generalize. I have come across exceptional instances where christians do not blindly, support jews because of a misiniterpretation of scripture.
(2). This is an oft repeated li(n)e that I hear. The bible teaches that only "Israel", the genetically connected tribes are chosen. The bible makes no mention of the "religion" that these chosen people are supposed to follow. Whatever it was, it definitely was NOT judaism, as the term "judaism" came from the name of a great grandson of the patriarch Abraham.
(3). I use the word "modern" because only a few centuries ago, christians were not exactly friendly and caring towards the jews.
edit on 25-10-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)
edit on 25-10-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)
edit on 25-10-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:00 AM
link   


It is indeed astonishing how christians, who label everything that is not christian as "satanic" or "evil" etc, openly express support for a religious faction that outright rejects/insults Jesus, the central figure of christian theology and opposes every bit of doctrines central to christian theology.
It appears to me that christians only NEED "Israel" to exist in the 21st century only because it would mean they are closer to biblical prophecy coming true... with all its wars and plagues, finally culminating in them (christians) finally being "saved". In other words, christians seem to find the existence of the Israeli state as a needed stepping stone, or a pawn for eschatolagical events to come to pass. No Israeli state = no apocalypse


I'm not a Christian.
If there is evil on this planet, then, Christians (generalization) in my personal experience, represent a large portion of it.
This is mainly do to the very intolerance you mention how Christians typically view anything and anyone non-christian as either something evil/satanic or as someone to be looked down on as a lesser person that needs to be 'saved'.

It's interesting your mention of prophesy in the Christian mythology where Christians tolerate the Jews, and as I understand it, there are active groups working toward an attempt at forcing the fulfillment of Christian mythology prophesy, building the 3rd temple being one of them.
Here's one of the groups pushing for rebuilding the temple:
www.templemountfaithful.org...

Here's a site detailing preparations for building the third temple:
Preparations for building 3rd temple

I'm currently searching out some of the other groups and hope to return with an edit containing links and details.

Interesting post. Kudos.

edit on 25-10-2011 by nineix because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:15 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


You raise a valid point about Isreal having to be a state in order to bring about the end of days. I used the same logic that made you ask thos questions and what I came up with was the conclusion that the book of revelations may have been a catholic device that wasn't even inspired by God.

My logic makes me question John the revelator's words since not once does Jesus ever say anything that remotely concurs with his "visions" of heaven, hell, or the afterlife IMO. Which leaves me to believe that maybe we have no idea whats in store for us, or what the signs of his second coming will be.

As a christian, I follow the teachings of Christ, and if you read just the red print you will see a very simple but infallable message being taught. Still even those who heard that message straight from Jesus felt that they could improve and expand upon his teachings... That is why we are so divided, because we try to interpret his teachings which were never up for discussion. He gave two commandments, not ten, and if you live by those two commandments, you should never have anything to worry about.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:26 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I hope I am wrong but I think some of them are in a PAC with the devil together. I do not see how they can let their religion upend the entire world. Not for any "god" - not for a messiah or no messiah.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:27 AM
link   
reply to post by TheThirdAdam
 


So perfectly iterated - well spoken and I think the truth.

Second line is for .



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 03:01 AM
link   
My responses are below.

1. How do you, as a christian, find it ok to support a religious faction that outright rejects Jesus, the central figure of christianity?

What I support, and what you'll find most Christians support, is the State of Israel, not the religious faction. The Biblical viewpoint (see Romans 9-12) is that the Jewish people are the root of the Christian faith; the root of a plant that we, as Gentile Christians, have been grafted in to. We therefore owe a debt to the Jewish nation, not only because they preceeded us spiritually, but also because we have been grafted in to the body of Christ at their expense. Their blindness and rejection, though not total, has allowed us the grace to be included in Christ.


2. On what non-theological basis would you say you support Israel / the jewish people?

On a non-theological basis, I'd support them in that Israel is their ancient homeland, and I acknowledge not only their right to exist, but also their right to have a state of their own, on their ancestral land. In terms of the modern state, my support is unequivocal in terms of supporting their rights etc., though that does not suggest that I necessarily support or agree with all the actions of the state. I do not. With that said though, I think the propaganda machine (on both sides of the divide) needs to be taken into account when discussing Israel; and too often the debate neglects to account for this on one side, while powering into overdrive when discussing it on the other.

3. Do you feel that the state of Israel and the jews would become useless in the prophetic scheme of things once Jesus returns ?

Not at all. The book of Zechariah states that when Christ returns, "they will look on the one they have pierced, and mourn as one mourns for an only child". Israel is God's eternal, chosen people. That doesn't change. "God is not a man, that He should change His mind". Christ will return, and reign for a thousand years, from Jerusalem, surrounded by His people. After this comes the judgement, and a new heaven and new earth.

4. As a supporter of Israel and the jews, how do you feel about them adamantly rejecting Jesus?

Well, that works on two levels. First of all, I'm grateful in a sense, because it allowed for the time of the gentiles; a time where God's grace and mercy has been expressed not only to His chosen, but to all. Jesus spoke of this in several parables, including one where a man invited a specific group of people to a wedding feast... but when none came, he grew angry with them, forbid them from entering, and sent his servants out to grab anyone they could find that was willing to attend. This is a picture of the Jews and Gentiles... and I found Christ purely and simply because of the Jews' rejection of Christ.

On the other hand... these are the chosen people of God, and I mourn for them, that they have, by and large, not seen the Truth that was before them. However, God's Word makes it clear that the time is coming when they will... and I look forward to that. It will be an amazing time. Even in the past 50 years or so, the number of Jewish believers in Christ has exploded, and with that growth has come a whole new level of understanding of the Scriptures, based not on our own Western ideals, but upon recognising and understanding the original meaning and intent of Scripture in its own context and heritage. There is some truly amazing stuff in the Bible, much of which can't be wholly understood (note that: WHOLLY - this doesn't change the truth, merely deepens the understanding of it) without a full understanding of the context the events detailed occurred in.

Hope that helps!



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 03:43 AM
link   
When I was put into the Christian religion as a child it never fitted. Later in life I left because Christianity has very good ideas and in one respect a beautiful man as its head, but with those most ardent followers, none of these characteristics seem to percolate through to them.

I truly wonder at people who take Judiasm seriously, yet have not researched its origens - because they would be in for a nasty shock. Its purely a twisted and less advantageous version of paganism. Many like to skip human sacrifice for the modern religions an draw a line on its practise at the supposed end of Paganism. Yet you had Abraham still prepared to carry out, as a normal practise the sacrifice of his own son. Its important to remember that people from all around the world made human sacrifices to their particular God. We are not totally clear when some cultures stopped practising this, so although Christianity is not linked, as as a later religion Judaism probably straddles this in its deep past. Originally it had a God and Goddess, The 'whore of Babylon' was Ashterah God's wife, whom had a place in the first Temple. There is mention of sticks with a head upon them which represented areas where she was supposedly worshiped that had to be got rid of after the priesthood decided a male got was quite enough and women, whom had served in the temple had to be kicked out.

I find it amazing that we even class Judiasm as a major religion because its following is so small its 14.5 million its a tiny minority religion. The major religions are in the hundreds of millions of followers.

As far a prophetic role, certainly not. . Is it a prophesy when its all composed by men (scribes) who made up the rules and put the mechanics of that religion together purely to provide themselves with a galvanized little army whom would keep them. It doesn't matter how 'piously' the hat is worn, its still only a hat.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 08:26 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


from the southern Baptist view point Christians view Jews as Gods chosen people who have fallen off track ( so`s to speak) and what happens in Israel just prior to jesus`s return many countries will try to invade israel through air born attack, but something miraculous stops the bombing and attacks from hiting the town. God protects them, If tis actually happened, I personally would believe it came straight from a messanger of God to us. we will see as the upcomming days weeks and months reveal the truth. I do tend to believe bewteen iran not wanting islam around and Israel wanting their saviour to come this whole israel iran issue could be pre ignited without a heavenly connecton.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 09:10 AM
link   
While I don't support the Jewish behavior and attitude towards Christ, they are an important part to the end times prophecy. If they don't rebuild the Temple then Christ can never return. The way I see it, the Jews are in a backsliding state and they will be healed when they realize that the Messiah has already come.

Someone asked how come Christians call everyone else satanic but not the Jews. I wouldn't say they are satanic, but some of the things they do seem to fall under that category.

Revelation 2:9
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 09:18 AM
link   
Christians love to show COSMETIC common fronts, where even jews and muslims sometimes are included for theist statistical purposes.

Behind closed doors the fascist factions of christianity fight each other and everybody else.

But in the standard hypocracy of missionary christianity it's the false facade, which is most important.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 09:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


Points up for discussion...

1. How do you, as a christian, find it ok to support a religious faction that outright rejects Jesus, the central figure of christianity?
2. On what non-theological basis would you say you support Israel / the jewish people?
3. Do you feel that the state of Israel and the jews would become useless in the prophetic scheme of things once Jesus returns ?
4. As a supporter of Israel and the jews, how do you feel about them adamantly rejecting Jesus?



1:I will bless Israel because the name Israel was given by God Himself. Salvation is of the Jews, as Jesus said. And Paul said that God Himself blinded them for a season, and God Himself will unblind them, in His own time. I don't call the shots for God.
2:They are a group of people who have historically been pushed out of the very land they had lived in and pushed from nation to nation not being accepted and persecuted for thousands of years. They have a right to live in the land of their ancestors.
3:Would the United States have to exist for Bible prophecy to be fulfilled? God's will is going to happen whether we want it to or not, and they would not be useless, just look at the description of the New Jerusalem. Each gate has the name of a tribe of Israel on it and two elders from each tribe are at the throne of God.
4: Again, their rejection is part of the will of God, their salvation will come when God determines. God did not tell me to reject them, they are still part of the branch He put them in. Don't boast yourself against the vine.

Now let me ask this, why are we more receptive and more accepting of the ungodly and evil people even though they also reject Jesus? Why do we still love family members who reject Jesus?

It is actually more un-Biblical to reject Israel.
edit on 10/25/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 09:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker
While I don't support the Jewish behavior and attitude towards Christ, they are an important part to the end times prophecy. If they don't rebuild the Temple then Christ can never return. The way I see it, the Jews are in a backsliding state and they will be healed when they realize that the Messiah has already come.

Someone asked how come Christians call everyone else satanic but not the Jews. I wouldn't say they are satanic, but some of the things they do seem to fall under that category.

Revelation 2:9
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.


I would like to say something here on this very thing, if you don't mind. What is the description of Jesus in Revelation? Does it not say He holds the menorah? What is the only religion to have the menorah? Why does each gate of New Jerusalem have the tribes names on them? Why are there two elders from each tribe of Israel who sits around the throne of God?

And don't you think those people that John is speaking about are like people who "say they are Christians and are not, but are of the church of satan?" When it says "there are those", it does not mean the entirety of the Jewish race and religion. It means there were some, and those some claimed to be something they were not. We see it all around us, people who claim to be Christian and are not.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 10:04 PM
link   
Let me simplify this for you , the only difference between us is the question of the Messiah , that being said God the Father is quite clear that he still loves His children and His land . god also makes ot quite clear that anyone who is against Israel is against God Himself .



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 10:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



As a christian, I follow the teachings of Christ, and if you read just the red print you will see a very simple but infallable message being taught. Still even those who heard that message straight from Jesus felt that they could improve and expand upon his teachings... That is why we are so divided, because we try to interpret his teachings which were never up for discussion. He gave two commandments, not ten, and if you live by those two commandments, you should never have anything to worry about.


He also said on those two hang all the LAW and the PROPHETS. He even went so far as to say that not one jot nor one tittle would pass away from the law until all these things be fulfilled. So far, not all has been fulfilled so the law still stands, Israel still stands, the Jews rights still stand, according to the Shepherd of the Lost of the house of Israel. He Himself said He came to save the lost of the house of Israel. It is His mission, and He will not fail in His mission.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 10:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by Noey777
Let me simplify this for you , the only difference between us is the question of the Messiah , that being said God the Father is quite clear that he still loves His children and His land . god also makes ot quite clear that anyone who is against Israel is against God Himself .


Yes He did. Thank you for that. It is like people think Jesus failed when He came to save the lost of the house of Israel and they have to do it themselves. Salvation is of the Jews. Who said it? Jesus.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 10:09 PM
link   
reply to post by bogomil
 


Bogomil the troll , you opine on a lot of these forums only to spew your hate , this makes you a troll .



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 10:22 PM
link   
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


He also said on those two hang all the LAW and the PROPHETS. He even went so far as to say that not one jot nor one tittle would pass away from the law until all these things be fulfilled. So far, not all has been fulfilled so the law still stands, Israel still stands, the Jews rights still stand, according to the Shepherd of the Lost of the house of Israel. He Himself said He came to save the lost of the house of Israel. It is His mission, and He will not fail in His mission.





What many christians miss in the above stAtement by Jesus is he came for the lost sheep of Israel , in other words the ten tribes that were taken north into Syria and dispersed over the world from there. The area they call Israel today is in reality Judah and is the remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and some Levites with a very small mixture of the ten tribes that fled to Jerusalem before the ten tribes were taken captive.

The fact of the matter is if you read Genesis 48-49 you will see that Joseph's children Ephraim and Manasseh are in fact the united states of today and Great Britian All prophecy given to Israel for end times refers to the ten tribes , the geographic Israel of today is still Judah in the eyes of God, Israel was the ten tribes which now is the western nations or Christianity.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 12:28 AM
link   
reply to post by Noey777
 




Let me simplify this for you , the only difference between us is the question of the Messiah


Thats not the only difference....
Besides the messiah question, the jews also disagree on
- the christian definition of God being a trinity
- the concept of "original sin"
- the doctrine of being saved by accepting Jesus' sacrifice.

all of them very crucial doctrines to christianity.






posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 12:54 AM
link   
reply to post by Awen24
 

The Biblical viewpoint (see Romans 9-12) is that the Jewish people are the root of the Christian faith; the root of a plant that we, as Gentile Christians, have been grafted in to.
It does not say that.
Paul says the root is "the good thing", whatever that means, but it is not Israel, who are the branches.
Those branches have been cut off.
So you believe in a fiction, that despite having had their branches cut off, they are still the root, which is just a lie and sorry that you are one of those deluded so as to believe a lie so God can punish you in Hell.
You should pray for God's forgiveness and to be cleansed of the possession by demons that you are under.



posted on Oct, 26 2011 @ 12:54 AM
link   
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



1:I will bless Israel because the name Israel was given by God Himself. Salvation is of the Jews, as Jesus said.

I asked how do you support a "Religious faction" i.e jews who reject jesus.
Its not the same as "Israel" of the old testament.



3:Would the United States have to exist for Bible prophecy to be fulfilled? God's will is going to happen whether we want it to or not,

Modern Israel is more prophetically significant than the US because christians see it as a sign that prophecy is about to unfurl. In other words, christians seem to be seeing Israel as a crucial but expendable pawn in prophecy. So what happens to the christian "love" for jewish people, once prophecy comes to pass.



and they would not be useless, just look at the description of the New Jerusalem. Each gate has the name of a tribe of Israel on it and two elders from each tribe are at the throne of God.

There is a difference between Israel-of the tribes and Israel - the modern state, which is NOT living by Old Testament laws. Many christians do not get this... and make the mistake of lumping the modern Israeli state with the biblical kingdom of Israel.




4: Again, their rejection is part of the will of God, their salvation will come when God determines. God did not tell me to reject them, they are still part of the branch He put them in. Don't boast yourself against the vine.

Huh?
Your'e saying God willed that they reject Jesus, and still sends Jesus to gather Israels children together, like a hen gathers her own brood under her

Not sure that idea is in the bible.
edit on 26-10-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)





new topics

top topics



 
6
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join