Why inconsistencies in the Bible lead to chaos when using Christianity to combat the demonic., page 1
Pages:
ATS Members have flagged this thread 2 times
Topic started on 24-10-2011 @ 03:16 PM by DrJay1975
A lot of what I've learned and experienced conflicts directly with common Church beliefs. I've always had a different perspective on things paranormal because I'm a believer looking through the eyes of a skeptic. I believe what I see and experience. I've experienced a lot. The most enlightening moment I've ever had and I talk about with great frequency are a pair of Church exorcisms at a Catholic Mission in Kenya. But that's not what I want to talk about today. We get a lot of questions on here about how to deal with dark entities. It always bothers me when people make assumptions that 1. the event is paranormal, 2. It is demonic and 3. They know their method works on how to resolve the situation. These situations should always be investigated properly. I just want to share from direct experience what I know to be true about these situations and hopefully it will help some folks in the process.

The 1st thing that must be established is whether or not there is a conventional explanation for said events. Now when I 1st speak with someone experiencing malevolent, or perceived malevolent activity I take a medical and psychological history. These always need to be eliminated 1st. Why? Because if something paranormal is assumed from the outset 2 things will happen. The 1st is you won't investigate it properly. The 2nd is it can adversely affect the health of your client. Imagine if you fuel their delusion to the point of them committing suicide. Imagine you fuel the paranormal fire and it's a brain tumor causing hallucinations and it kills them. Start skeptical. It's safer. Events around the house, rule out the mundane conventional events. If they are hearing things in the walls and there are mouse droppings all over the insulation, odds are it's the mice making the noise. Stretching to prove something kills credibility. Examine everything in the house. Get a solid background on the occupants, their family, the house and previous occupants. Investigate. I know all of this sounds rather boring but you'll feel much more secure if you do find something paranormal later. YOu'll know that you've eliminated the rational explanations.

When you begin to investigate you want to start with a sterile sealed environment. No contamination. The occupants, pets etc... need to be gone. I'm a big fan of killing the power mains before an EM and thermal sweep. I also like to do it double blind. Meaning I'll do one alone in the house with the power killed and another team member follows. We don't communicate results until afterwards. When the active investigation happens I again like to have the power main off. I prefer one person in the house at a time to avoid contamination. No pets either. I like to have video covering all of the entrances and exits as well as having them sealed. I always search the house thoroughly before starting. I don't want anyone playing tricks on me. Any equipment you use does not detect spirits. Or rather it can't be proven at this point that it does or doesn't. So don't rely on it. I use it because I know that if I have a sterile environment I can document changes and see if there is consistency from investigation to investigation. I put zero stock in EVPs. I think they are unreliable and a borderline carnival act. With all of the cell phone, CB, radio, tv, radio waves bouncing around, how on earth can you know if you have a spirit or something man made. You can't. Disembodied voices are another thing entirely. If the house is sterile and one person is in there and you have it on multiple devices in addition to your personal experience then you have something of value. One thing not a lot of people are aware of... Stereo speakers can produce disembodied voice even with no power source. Truckers with high watt CBs can talk through nearby speakers accidentally. Imagine repeatedly hearing multiple voices in a room. Truckers can say some risque stuff. You might very well think you have a demonic entity in the house if he's talking about the hooker at the truckstop last night. Point being, investigate as a skeptic. Become knowledgeable and understand the science that affects your craft. And if you think you have an entity in your home maybe some of this will help you find a rational explanation.

As far as what kind of entities you can encounter, I've come across several. I've also had Catholic exorcists, Indian Shamans, Muslim Clerics, Rabbis, witches etc... and many other religious professionals educate me on what they've seen. They all differ a bit. But some elements are the same. Just because I don't mention it here doesn't mean it does or doesn't exist, it simply means I didn't mention it. Why do some people experience these things and some people don't is a common question. Well I've tried to explain this numerous times, I'll give it another go. It has to do with your spiritual energy or spiritual pressure as I often refer to it. I call it that because a strong entity, one of high spirit energy, it's energy is so vast that it puts oppressive pressure on your physical being. If your spirit energy is low and you encounter a strong being you may simply pass out. Depending on your spirit energy, you may feel queezy or malaise. The more powerful the entity is that you, the greater the effects you feel. If you have little to know spirit energy you aren't going to see these entities or even notice them unless you encounter something powerful beyond your comprehension. The greater your spiritual pressure is the greater your ability to perceive these things on all levels is. And the greater your ability to defend yourself and effect them as well. But what might you encounter? Residual hauntings are the most common. A psychic impression of past events. Low spirit energy and you won't notice it at all. But these hauntings are no more relevant than the birds chirping in the woods behind your house. There are 3 types of human spirits I've encountered. The 1st is the typical lost soul. A disembodied human spirit that is on this side of the veil. It's confused and doesn't know it's not alive or it doesn't know where to go and what to do. The 2nd is a disembodied spirit that remains here because something in life is incomplete or there is a desire not obtained while living. These spirits can be benevolent or malevolent. Just as their human hosts were. They want something. It may be something simple like not wanting to leave their kids yet. Or it may be to cause someone torment. The 3rd is a transcendent human spirit. Tens of thousands of years ago tribal cultures often prayed to and worshiped their ancestral spirits. Made sacrifices. Gave them power. Made them arrogant. This allowed them to become more than your basic human spirit. And what do these spirits do now? Driven insane by time and ignored by their former devotees? Some move on. Some seek to be reborn. Some still need feed to continue to exist. And they will feed off fear. They are very unstable and they are very dangerous. Hauntings, possession, and other seemingly malevolent activity that many consider demonic comes from these things. Insane, arrogant and powerful. Believing they are more than human and are approaching godhood in some cases. They can feel demonic to a sensitive. They often feel worse.

Continued...


reply posted on 24-10-2011 @ 03:17 PM by DrJay1975
reply to post by DrJay1975


Angels. Just like people you can have good and bad. You have those that fell with Lucifer, those in loyal service to God and then the other variety. The other variety doesn't particularly care for humans. But they didn't fight with or fall with Lucifer. Different religions have angels so I'm not just referring to the Christian flavor. They can posess a human body. Demons. Here's the kicker. There are demons that existed in the chaos before the creation of the Universe. They are powerful beyond comprehension. They are beholden to no religion. Power or negotiation is the only way to remove them. You have your religon specific demons. These are very powerful as well but not on the same level as the others. Then you have what I call elemental spirits. They can be strong or weak, friendly, mishevous or malevolent. This is why it's important to identify what you are dealing with. Your ritual or method of bainshing may not work on what you've encountered. So get someone that knows what they are doing. I've gone in behind so many mediums, witches, clergy that were blind as to the nature of their enemy and made the situation worse.

I'm going to get sidetracked for a minute. The Catholic Church as well as every other major religion uses their priest(or version of it) to cast out evil spirits. Every major religion recognizes something else as well. Their rituals are not 100% effective. Why? Because their ritual has power over a particular type of demon, one beholden to that religion. That's why they all use what is called a charismatic exorcist. What is a charismatic exorcist, really? It's essentially a person of high spiritual pressure that can actually overpower the offending entity and forcibly remove it or destroy it. Wow. Right? The Church's don't want this as public knowledge and don't want it understood. Because if that's the case they have some serious explaining to do. An example. Catholics exorcise demons through the Roman Rite. More specificly through Jesus Christ. The priest is actually working as the hand of Christ in removing the demon. The priest has no power. Jesus was the worlds greatest charismatic exorcist. He didn't use the Roman Rite, he did it through spiritual pressure. Pure power. Priests invoke that. But with the specific use of the Roman Ritual it applies and effects demons sunjegated by Christianity. In Islam a ruqya is conducted. The power of the holy book is used to drive out the Jinn or to repair damage from a witch or curse. The Hindu have multiple methods that they use and offer very comprehensive exorcism tools. Jewish practice is almost more mysticism and negotiation, but it can be very effective on a multitude of demons. Every single one of the bible thumping pentacostal tent revival exorcists I've encountered has been a complete fraud. And the exorcism events are mass hysteria and more of a metphorical casting out of impure thoughts. Witches, mediums, etc.... can all be effective at removing offending entities based on their spiritual pressure as opposed to their ritual. I'll dive into the rituals in my next paragraph.

We get lot's of folks on here talking about summoning and binding demons. I find most of it laughable. I've seen a summoning with a physical manifestation. It's not the metaphorical nonsense I see on here in the forums. Summoning and invocation is far from my realm of expertise though. But from what I've seen, the ritual only has as much power as the person conducting it. And that goes for binding rituals as well as methods used to cast the entities out. That's why they work for some and not others. People tend o say that you aren't doing it right or you don't know what your doing or it's easy.... They don't understand the spiritual power required to accomplish these tasks. And if you want to try and remove a negative entity on your own via one of these rituals you need to rethink matters. Say your esperiencing noises or glimpses or events but can't directly percieve the entitiy. What on earth makes you think that you have enough power to remove it? You don't. You can't even empower the spell, ritual or charm correctly.

The biggest problem I encounter is from narrowminded Christians. Not saying all Christians are narrowminded. But they make assumptions based on what they are currently taught in church. I ask them this... Why does the Catholic Church use charismatic exorcists? Why are their exorcisms which priests(the pope administered an unsuccessful one as well) can't succeed in? They use charismatics because not all demons are beholden to christianity. That's why. If the ROman Ritual and invokig the power of Christ could effectively deal with all demons they wouldn't do it. Plain and simple. The other thing this crowd says frequently is there are only 2 kinds of spirits, angels and demons. The Bible says so. It's not your grandmas ghost it's Satan. It isn't a risidual haunting, it's the demonic muppet show. Our oldest bible, the Sinaiticus Codex differs. The current version of the bible is edited and contrived. The older version does not eliminate the possibility of earthbound spirits. It also omits the ressuresction. It omits "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.". It omits the last sentence of the lord's prayer. But here's the point, if you believe that your King James Bible is the unaltered word of God, you are mistaken. The bible has undergone countless revisions which are easy to find with simple research. It isn't conjecture either, it's sustainable facts. But you should familliarize yourselves with the fundamental views and the real history of your religion. And if someone is dealing with a malevolent entity don't pretend you know how to deal with it. If Jesus was a cureall there would be no charismatic exorcists nor would their be successful occurences of Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and pagan exorcisms.

Last thing. I've never encountered Satan or a spirit claiming to be Satan. Never had that named mentioned in numerous exorcisms and malevolent hauntings. Jesus has been frequently mentioned. Trying to explain who and what Satan and Lucifer are, well that's another thread. Talking about in what context Jesus existed is another matter entirely as well. But I've never encountered a demonic or malevolent force that was beholden to Satan or Lucifer. Even in the cases with the Catholic Church.

This thread isn't intended to convince anyone that ghosts, demons or anything else is real. Religion and faith are intensely personal and should remain so. People won't believe things of this nature until they have a personal experience. And most folks can't have a convincing one because they don't have the spiritual pressure. So if anyone feels like going on a God, Jesus, Christianity, Ghost, Demons, (insert diety here) are all made up garbage, please move on. It's not the topic here. The topic is bad advice which can lead to problems if someone actually listens to it. If you take anything from this entire thread, whether you agree or disagree with me, take this one thing. If you are or think you are encountering a negative entity of any sort approach the matter scientificly. Be a skeptic. Eliminate the natural explanations. Once you do that then identify what sort of entity your dealing with. Don't do it yourself. Get someone who know's what they are doing to assist you.


reply posted on 24-10-2011 @ 03:37 PM by Northwarden
Don't do it yourself. Get someone who know's what they are doing to assist you.


"We must rely on an expert", "We must rely on a specialist" ... It's not enough to know about something, or have our our spirituality intact, or to rely on God Almighty. It's not enough for the Christian to believe in God and rely on Jesus, or the Islamic to rely on Allah, or the person who claims they are Judaic to rely on God. If it relates back to the creator, then we are in safe hands I say. Angels have your back, so stop relying on fear tactics to say the matter is over-complicated.

One man can stand against a thousand, ten against ten thousand, if God is backing them. Do we need to be conversant in the entire works of Crowley in order to stand against a demon, is the same as asking "Do we need to understand a criminal's life philosophy, their desires, their inner workings and the complete plot picture they had planned in order to arrest them and throw them in prison"?

I see a lot of merit in what you've wrote here too, but I have a big problem with mixing good ideologies, and corrupt ideologies in the same umbrella, and expecting that hole-filled umbrella to keep off the rain.

For another timely comparasion, Allopathy in modern medicine pits the fear of the disease against the fear of the cure, and creates their industry from the outflow that results from such confusion. If you examine this (www.Whale.to for an excellant resource), can you honestly say you are not trying the same thing here?

And no, I haven't read about or been involved with the possession situations you've been involved in. That happened to you and the people you know.
edit on 24-10-2011 by Northwarden because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 24-10-2011 @ 03:55 PM by CherubBaby
reply to post by DrJay1975


So what are the inconsistancies you assume are in The Bible? Bring a lunch, your gonna need it..


reply posted on 24-10-2011 @ 08:41 PM by lokdog
reply to post by DrJay1975


So your saying people who have never had a paranormal experience have weak spirits. Is your idea of a spirit the same as a christian soul? Are there souls damned or damaged, i'm just a bit confused by what your implying.


reply posted on 24-10-2011 @ 11:58 PM by DrJay1975
Originally posted by Northwarden
Don't do it yourself. Get someone who know's what they are doing to assist you.


"We must rely on an expert", "We must rely on a specialist" ... It's not enough to know about something, or have our our spirituality intact, or to rely on God Almighty. It's not enough for the Christian to believe in God and rely on Jesus, or the Islamic to rely on Allah, or the person who claims they are Judaic to rely on God. If it relates back to the creator, then we are in safe hands I say. Angels have your back, so stop relying on fear tactics to say the matter is over-complicated.

One man can stand against a thousand, ten against ten thousand, if God is backing them. Do we need to be conversant in the entire works of Crowley in order to stand against a demon, is the same as asking "Do we need to understand a criminal's life philosophy, their desires, their inner workings and the complete plot picture they had planned in order to arrest them and throw them in prison"?

I see a lot of merit in what you've wrote here too, but I have a big problem with mixing good ideologies, and corrupt ideologies in the same umbrella, and expecting that hole-filled umbrella to keep off the rain.

For another timely comparasion, Allopathy in modern medicine pits the fear of the disease against the fear of the cure, and creates their industry from the outflow that results from such confusion. If you examine this (www.Whale.to for an excellant resource), can you honestly say you are not trying the same thing here?

And no, I haven't read about or been involved with the possession situations you've been involved in. That happened to you and the people you know.
edit on 24-10-2011 by Northwarden because: (no reason given)


Reliance on the creator covers it? Untrue. Most rites of exorcism don't rely on the creator. And when their rites fail they rely on charismatics who are typically not of that religion.

As far as relying on Crowley, not sure what familiarity with Crowley would so to help you. I tend to think of Crowley as a braggart and a fraud. And I assume you'd be right that one could stand against 10000 with the creator supporting him. I have never seen support from the creator in these instances. I believe in god the creator but I see him as more of a divorced dad living in Florida that gets the kids once a year. Never had divine intervention. Nor have the priests I've worked with.

I also think you overestimate what I suggest. What must be understood about the demon is it's origin. First and foremost. If the entity can't be removed then it's motivations are important as negotiation is used in many exorcism rites.

Comparing it to Allopathy.... interesting. But I can honestly say I'm not doing the same thing. Understanding eliminates fear. I'm promoting understanding. Not a fear of the cure.


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:05 AM by DrJay1975
Originally posted by lokdog
reply to post by DrJay1975


So your saying people who have never had a paranormal experience have weak spirits. Is your idea of a spirit the same as a christian soul? Are there souls damned or damaged, i'm just a bit confused by what your implying.


I'm saying that many people who haven't had a paranormal experience aren't capable of having one. They don't have the spiritual pressure to perceive them or they've completely shut off that part of themselves. They may have a great deal of sealed off energy. Not saying anyone is weak, some are sure. But there is also the option that someone of strong spirit energy simply hasn't encountered anything or hasn't realized he has.

As far as a soul, I don't know what a soul is. I guess it can be construed as your spiritual essence. Souls would be the exclusive domain of humans. I;ve never encountered a damned soul. One confined to hell. Haha I just reread your comment and you've confused me as well. DO you mean are the souls of those who can't or don't perceive entities damned or damaged? Not damned. Of that I'm certain. Damaged? Perhaps.


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:09 AM by DrJay1975
Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by DrJay1975


So what are the inconsistancies you assume are in The Bible? Bring a lunch, your gonna need it..


No I'm not. And I couldn't edit my title. But if it's an argument I wanted to make more strongly in this thread(which I don't) I would ask you compare the current King James Bible to the oldest bibles in existence, Codex Sinaiticus would be a great one. THe additions and edits to the modern bible leave it far from home when compared to the most ancient versions.

But that would sidetrack this thread entirely. I titled it poorly and I apologize. I rethought it after I posted.



reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:22 AM by DrJay1975
Originally posted by JoyDreamer
Wow, you sure know quite a bit on this subject. Thankyou for taking the time to share this, it fills in some holes for me in regards to the spiritual world. I'd also love to here what you do think about Satan and Jesus as I grew up Christain but have drifted to being more spiritual. Your opinion on the matter would be interesting.


I was a card carrying Catholic, to be technical I still am, but it doesn't represent my present belief structure. Every religion has some value. All are somewhat misleading. I am of the opinion that Jesus . was a real man. He existed. As far as the son of God. I don't believe it. The oldest bible in existence leaves out the resurrection. On the cross it remits "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do". It paints a different picture. Jesus was the worlds greatest exorcist. He was a brilliant philosopher and he had extremely high spiritual energy from some source. I would tend to think the source was of divine origin. But the virgin birth and a lot of the other information would seem pieced together from other deities. What I think and what I know are different matters. Jesus was a powerful spiritual man and a skilled exorcist. He was an accomplished healer. The invocation of his spirit is a powerful tool in exorcism. That's what I know. The rest of my thoughts about Jesus and the Bible as we know it would be a distraction.

As far as Satan, he's never been mentioned in any of my exploits. And you'd think he would. My understanding of Satan is that he is an angel. Performing a function at the behest of God. Testing and making mankind worthy of the afterlife. Lucifer in my understanding is a prisoner in Hell. The fallen are imprisoned in Hell, not human spirits in normal circumstances. But to be perfectly frank what I've learned and been told about that particular subject may or may not be true.


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:35 AM by DrJay1975
Originally posted by Ryanssuperman
From my experiences, which are many, I've come to the conclusion that whatever lives beyond the veil of our reality, is not confined to a certain religion. I believe these are entities that have lived here as long or longer than we have. For reasons I cannot explain, they aren't consistent in our society. To label them "demons" or "Angels" or "Ghosts, or "Jinn", is all based on your culture and your religion beliefs. They are one in the same, in my opinion.

Now, that being said, no holy book, or holy word such as "Jesus", will ever control or scare them off. They are being, as we are, and are not controlled so easily.

People need to take away preconceptions when it comes to the supernatural ... because in reality, we really "know" nothing. Everything is theory.


I agree with you in partial. There are some beings behind the veil that are beyond control from any religion. I've had a couple of rare cases dealing with demons from before our existence came to be. Their power was incomprehensible.

The points I will argue is that some demons feed off the negativity of certain religions. And certain religions can believe in something so strongly they can cause it's formation. Some of these creatures are bound by religion. Not all. If they weren't ritual exorcism would never work. And it does.

As far as labeling these creatures this is why we have language. I'm not going to rehash the types of entities I have encountered but many demons do refer to themselves as such. So it's not errant to refer to them as such. There are demons. There are angels. There are human spirits. And there are numerous others. They are sentient and aware of what they are in many cases, the exception being some human spirits. And in a real encounter this is easily verifiable.

But it incorrect to assume that religion can have no hold over any of them. YOu also offer the opinion that they are all the same. In my experience they are not the same, not even close. I'm speaking on real encounters not some mental imagery. So a lot of this I don't have to put much thought in. But the things I've stated I'm not guessing about. SO folks can decide if they believe me or don't. Either way I'm fine with it. I'm not hear to change anyones system of beliefs. But when you say we know nothing, I encourage to speak for yourself. Unless you are intimately aware of my encounters you can't intelligently speak on what I do or don't know. But it is good advice for almost everyone. YOu really don't know what you are dealing with.


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:59 AM by jhill76
reply to post by DrJay1975


If you have to negotiate to get a spirit to leave, that says enough about you already. What makes you think they will hold themselves to said negotiations?


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 01:02 AM by jhill76
reply to post by DrJay1975


On this here Earth, there are only three types of entities.
Ones from above (angels)
Ones from below (demons)
Lost souls (mankind)

There are different classes from above and below, but no more than three types. They will look different depending on their rank. Angels don't like to be called angels, its.a man made term. I don't know what demons like to be called, never cared enough to ask.

This comes from experince dealing with whole armies of both.

You can best believe saying Jesus ain't scare them off. What happens is, above will hear your call and send a legion of soldier angels to remove the bad spirits. This is all done in the unseen.

The best tool, is to show no fear.
edit on 25-10-2011 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 05:47 AM by lokdog
reply to post by DrJay1975


I was thinking about a group of phycics who practice a semi religion called spiritualism. They claim to comunicate with dead people. While i'm always sceptical some of them seem to hit the nail on the head more times than not with the things they know. Anyways there religion claims that everyone has the ability to be phycic, most people simply block this ability subconsciously.


reply posted on 25-10-2011 @ 12:42 PM by yaluk
reply to post by DrJay1975


The problem is you look to pentacostal's and Roman catholics when looking at exorcisms... those two forms are christianity are so borked them failing to exorcise is not something i would gasp at.

keep digging
Pages:     ^^TOP^^



Paranormal photos: separate the wheat from the chaff.
  Posted 10 days ago with 68 member flags
Shared Dreaming Experiment
  Posted 15 days ago with 10 member flags
To those who can have OBEs
  Posted 7 days ago with 9 member flags
My Ghost Radar Predicts a Mega-Quake on June 15, 2012 at Noon!
  Posted 17 days ago with 7 member flags
Bompa
  Posted 17 days ago with 7 member flags
An Ancient Ghost Story by Pliny the Younger
  Posted 14 days ago with 7 member flags