Sarkozy 'Sick' Of Cameron's Euro Advice

reply to post by Freeborn


The bit about parliament stifling debate is partly true I suppose, but at the same time the MP's are still able to violate party lines without any poltical reprisal (as of yet, there may be reprisal later), though I suppose there would likely be consequences if a cabinet member took the risk of siding with the people who are desperate to ensure that this referendum goes through.

As far as the government's response to the issue of an EU referrendum I am inclined to agree with you, though personally I don't feel that right now is an ideal time for any debate on the pros and cons of Europe to take place as most of the current issues regarding the economy etc are extra-ordinary issues affecting not just Europe but the whole world. These extra-ordinary issues bare with them the danger of stifling the debate between the benefits and shortcomings of our membership in the EU. The Tories have repeatedly said that they weren't elected on a euroskeptic platform hence why they don't want to support a simple 'in-out' referendum.

Looking at it from another perspective, it'll be interesting to see how Cameron handles the issue though, if he backs down to the euroskeptic bloc within the party who want this referendum then labour and lib-dem MPs will pounce on his inability to lead the party, likewise if he takes on the MPs who want the referendum in parliament the conservatives will be seen as critically divided and it would likely reflect negatively on them.

reply to post by lifeissacred


So when is the 'right' time?

The simple fact is the British people want a referendum.
Despite what Cameron publicly stated prior to his election he is now denying them their wish.

That is dictatorial and undemocratic.

reply to post by Freeborn


It's not dictatorial, they're in parliament right now to discuss the matter as a representative democracy should. The right time to discuss these issues is when we don't have a divided coalition government, when a party runs on a euroskeptic platform etc. It's a complex issue, it should not be turned into a simple in-out vote. Any re-negotiation of our relationship with the European Union should be debated and discussed in parliament as it will be due to the petition which has sparked this media debate.

Before and after Cameron's election.



"Don't you think all of us should have a say in the referendum we were promised"

then

"I think it's the wrong answer for Britain"

So oviously he was lying before the election and now he wishes to ignore the wishes of the people because he knows better than us.

reply to post by lifeissacred


But the majority of British people want a referendum.

We want the opportunity to decide on who governs us.

Obviously representative democracy does not provide the level of control and say that the British people should have in their own governance.
Unfortunately any serious and considered attempt at discussing possible alternatives to the current system are immediately ridiculed or ignored by MSM who like other vested interests wish to maintain the status quo.

ETA.
The major political parties are trying to use all their power to force MP's to obey party line and vote against their own personal conviction and against the wishes of their own constituents who they were allegedly elected to represent.
MP's are not elected to represent their party!!

reply to post by Freeborn


I'm watching the debate at the moment, Cameron seems to be holding up against labours words quite well. Haven't seen him backdown yet, still seems pretty euroskeptic also.

reply to post by Freeborn


On that point about MP's serving their party, MP's are elected to represent their constituency based on their platform. Apart from the obvious minor parties, neither of whom are any part of this debate as they have no MPs, no member of parliament was elected on an anti-EU platform.

It's important to note than none of the parties with an anti European platform was elected to represent their constituency.

Too bad you guys couldnt motorise that little piece of real estate and move on to where the climate is a little less beastly......
But barring that, i suppose the british goverment, like all parliamentary systems will vote the "Party line" nine hundred ninety nine out of a thousand regardless of what the constituants say.
There is NO binding contract signed by these sons a birches when they make all these election statements.
Everything goes by the board when they get power as they concentrate on filling their own pockets immediately they sit in.
Its like voting for hitler for five years because after a majority there is no recourse to make them perform.
Something is indeed amiss with this kind of social contract which we have to abide by.
It makes no real sense.A slim minority goverment is far more representative dnnt you think?
Turning to Sarkozy, i think he is just another frenchman really, maybe youd prefer De gaulle?
Jeebus!Now thats arrogance of the gallic nature........!
The problem is like the Gourdian Knot,(sic) and will not find a solution till the rest of humanity awakens into the fifth world with those who are already there.
Its all tied up in the same old mindsets we were impregnated with and have found wanting.(basically inadequate to deal with reality.)
On a Larger scale it asll seems like so much fire and passion over an argument about arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...............
So much is lacking because the system is set up for the big banks and corps to make profits while keeping the rabble at bay.
the rest as they say , is history......
Certainly a people has the right to self determination.
This is the very heart and basis of a democracy. period.
Look around you....Do you see that happening ....anywhere?

reply to post by stirling


The issue with this is that all of the parties who ran on an anti-European platform failed to get 1 seat in the house of commons, the conservative party (a bloc of whom's members have went against party lines to support the motion being debated at the moment) did not run on a Euroskeptic platform. They are debating the issue at the moment, most conservatives who have spoke so far seem to be generally Eurosketpic however in favour of staying in the EU for the most part.

reply to post by lifeissacred


In light of the three line whip and the oppositon also due to vote against the motion it's a completely irrelevant debate as we know the outcome of the vote already.

It's a public debate that is required and important.

reply to post by lifeissacred


Did you watch the video I posted?

Whilst it may not have been in The Conservative Party manifesto Cameron is clearly pro-referendum, or was that just trying to score cheap political points against an opponent at any cost regardless of personal conviction?

The major parties are clearly out of step with the electorate and this clearly highlights the failings of the current party political representative democratic system.
It is outdate, provides little accountability and is unepresentative and even mis-representative of the electorates wishes.

Never thought I'd agree with a Frenchman but Sarkorzy is right. Cameron's posturing on the Euro will not provide any workable solution to Europe's economic woes.

Besides which, how quickly it has been forgotten that Cameron was not elected! He only holds his position because his Eton Rifle mate Clegg, made a pact with him to form a government.

As such, with the possible exception of the old boys network, Cameron is not representative of anyone and as far as I am concerned, holds no mandate to lead other than the one handed him by the Crown.

Referendum? In the unlikely event this actually occurs, it will probably serve to demonstrate to all the total BS that British Democracy is because if the result is a NO for Europe, I would bet there would be no immediate withdrawal. No pull out is going to be without a long process with 'agreements' and 'contracts' to be ratified. The boat is still just too full of that juicy gravy.

Originally posted by teapotBesides which, how quickly it has been forgotten that Cameron was not elected! He only holds his position because his Eton Rifle mate Clegg, made a pact with him to form a government.

As such, with the possible exception of the old boys network, Cameron is not representative of anyone and as far as I am concerned, holds no mandate to lead other than the one handed him by the Crown.

Cameron was elected as MP by his constituents in Witney.

Cameron was elected as Party Leader by his MPs.

Cameron was elected as PM by the Queen.

No PM in history has ever been elected directly. The PM is always the leader of the largest party in the Commons. That has always been a mandate handed to the leader by the Crown.

reply to post by repressed


Britian has a coalition government that no one voted for. Clegg was the power broker who could have chosen to pact up either way but went for what he understands, the Establishment of which he is a member. Sorry mate, pedantics do not change the fact that Britian is led by an unelected government that is led by an unelectable reprobate.

Originally posted by teapot
reply to post by repressed

 

Britian has a coalition government that no one voted for. Clegg was the power broker who could have chosen to pact up either way but went for what he understands, the Establishment of which he is a member. Sorry mate, pedantics do not change the fact that Britian is led by an unelected government that is led by an unelectable reprobate.

In the UK we do not vote for a government or a party, but for an MP to represent us in parliament. Some/a lot of people may vote under the misapprehension they are voting for a party or a PM.

We have a coalition because no one party gained enough to rule with a majority, we could have had a minority Conservative government with Cameron as PM - would that have made him more valid in your eyes?

reply to post by caerloyw


Thank you. I understand the system.

And I still say Britian is led by an unelected member of the establishment who's only mandate is that conferred by the Crown.

reply to post by teapot


Unfortunately The Establishment are firmly in control of all three of the major parties nowadays.
There are nearly as many Old Etonians, Oxbridge grads etc in New Labour as there are in The Conservative Party hence there being little difference in policy and presentation and an overwhelming obsession with maintaining the status quo.

As was so accurately put somewhere else on ATS, there is far too much gravy left on the train for them to get off yet.

We stand idly by and allow the politicians to deny us and use the system to justify it.
If the system denies us the right then we should change the system to be more representative of the peoples wishes!
It is OUR country and politicians should do what we wish, not the other way round.

Didn't want to start a new thread but Sarkozy is always pointing the finger at us and making snide comments.

This time he says we wouldn't understand because we're an Island, forgetting the fact that we are the most important country in this crumbling mess called Europe..

I say pull out and let the German woman and midget boy sort it, they obviously hold alot of resentment towards our country so why fund their pathetic currency much longer.

I pray for a referendum because everyone in the UK would vote to leave.... we're not a part of it to benefit ourselves anymore so why bother? Immigration, debt and constantly getting stabbed in the back by other 'leaders' who have proved they haven't got a clue. Sounds appetising.