Sarkozy 'Sick' Of Cameron's Euro Advice

This is odd timing indeed. The British government votes on whether to hold a referendum on Europe:

EU referendum: Tory MPs set to rebel against government

The British coalition is pleading with MPs not to vote for a referendum because without any shadow of a doubt, the British public will vote to leave Europe if given a chance - and they haven't been given a chance since 1975. Even the logic of why not (Europe's in an abyss and we have more important issues to deal with at the moment) surely isnpires the MPs more to jump the sinking ship as Britian doesn't have the Euro yet must pay for Euro debts.

But David Cameron, the British PM, appears to be showing a different face to the EU leaders. Which way this propaganda is blowing is anyone's guess.

David Cameron has been involved in a furious row with French president Nicolas Sarkozy who said he was sick of the UK offering advice on the euro. The Prime Minister clashed with Mr Sarkozy during a six-hour EU summit in Brussels as leaders sought to hammer out a solution to the problems gripping the single currency. The row erupted after the French president tried to insist that a follow-up meeting on Wednesday should be restricted to the 17 eurozone leaders. At one point in the exchanges, the French president was quoted as telling Mr Cameron: "We are sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do. "You say you hate the euro and now you want to interfere in our meetings."

Sarkozy 'Sick' Of Cameron's Euro Advice

Personally, I'm in a predicament. I live in Europe and have a European wife and kids yet I'm British. I enjoy being able to travel freely around Europe (it was a lot harder before) but as a Brit I want to see a separation with Europe and the doomed currency. But I know that Britain does half of its trade with the EU so dumping them would see GB plummet into its own quagmire. Thinking rationally, without chanting "Agincourt!", I think britain should wait and ride out this situation. Think with a clear head on the future rather than the present.
If we abandon ship now then it could lead to a 1930s situation again. But perhaps that's where all this is heading....
Strangely, I feel a bit like David Cameron at this moment.

The problem for me is twofold, firstly I think it is always the right time to hold a referendum and now is a perfect time to hold a simple one... in or out...

We sit on the fence neither in or out... playing a side role which neither helps us or the EU. so a simple vote, the will of the people and all that, would at least clear the air and give us a direction.

If that direction is to stay in then we should be working hard to help out our fellow European countries on an equal footing..

In my opinion there are 3 main countries in the EU and Britain would play a central role.. but as always as we sit on the fence watching the pissing contest in Europe between France and Germany, which causes many a stalemate when a third power could smooth the way forward.

And right now that is what I think Europe needs, decisive leadership and not a pissing contest between France and Germany (my reasoning why Sarky pants does not like Cameron opening his mouth)

While if it the will of the people is to get out (where my vote will go) then we would find another direction for the country since a no vote would show this is obviously the wrong direction, and staying around is not helping the EU.

As for movement, it's not as tho people would suddenly get kicked out of homes and jobs.. if the continentals did that then then it would cause them equal problems, and as far as I am aware Germany is more exposed to British debt than any other nation.. So crippling Britian would be a shot in the foot and no sensible nation would do that.

So my opinion is, this moment is the perfect time to hold a referendum, it'll create either a stronger Europe or it will at least remove the British headache from the Franco-German pissing contest.

Edit: try to make post clear.. like that is possible when it comes to the EU

reply to post by Aestheteka


I agree. Whilst being very pro European, i am also a very proud Englishman and British person. I am painfully aware of how reliant (almost) we are with trade with Europe and therefore any problems in Europe could be catastrophic for us. At the same time, i love our island mentality that has kept us separate and unique.

I actually think that at the moment, Cameron is between the proverbial rock and hard place on this issue. The prognosis doesn't look great whatever viewpoint wins.....

I thought Cameron and Sarkozy were BFF after double teaming Libya.

I think we need to be involved in any debates over the Euro, we may not use the currency, but 40% of the UK's trade is within the eurozone and our banks are exposed to a lot of European debt.

There needs to be a referendum for UK citizens, we need to have an open public debate on the issue. Is the time right? Maybe not, but will there ever be a good time?

Maybe the UK could consider doing what the Confederate states did - group up with some of the other states that have got fed up with Europe and leave as a bloc. COuntries like Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden are all "had enough" countries and could easily group up with the remains of EFTA, namely, Norway, Iceland etc. to form a new bloc, rid of the single currency, but granting easy export and travel agreements.

I don't know. I have not formed a firm opinion yet on all these issues. I am still watching and trying to collect information.
But just reactively, I find myself feeling that it is a bit irrational to stay out of things, and yet want to play an important part in them when it gets important. If I choose not to get in the game, I definately don't think I can step in and have part in it when the game gets heated.... I mean, I can try, but the possibility and validity of the other players to tell me to kiss off is pretty grand.
If they are okay with it, I'd be grateful, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was shut out.

I can understand why they have NEVER let the british people have a referndum (even after they promised when the Irish had one. Twice).
The British people have had 1000 years of anti-European propaganda. Is it really likely that they'll suddenly starting brandishing baguettes and Bratwurst? in the last centurey alone, within living memory, we've been frothed up to the point where we believed it was a good and healthy thing to kill the French and Germans.
THAT is why they don't want the great unwashed making any decisions on the subject.
Since the end of WW2, we've been re-educated. We weren't at war with the Germans but instead the mythical Nazis (a completely different breed); the French were on our side during the war (Vichy never existed and the Resistance was 99% of the French population). Even the history of the EU is just plain scary. How in the name of the gods were Germany and France permitted to start that one 2 years after WW2? And look at the countries they brought in.... Didn't they annex them? Here it says 1950 but it was 1947. Did they think by saying it was Belgium's idea that no one would notice?

As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. The six founders are Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.

The History of the European Union

And its choice of anthem? Hitler's favourite piece of music (and mine... I really hate the way they've turned it into a cliche):



Doesn't that just make you want to stand proud in your jack boots and exercise your right arm at oblique angles?

I think we've been told a little fib about who really won WW2, but it's not such a bad thing. Even the 'fall of communism' and the 1989 revolutions looked pre-planned. Perhaps Russia just had a long-term lease on the area?
After WW1, Britain had neither the manpower nor the money to keep control of its Empire. Over here (until the end of communsim), kids studied a completely different history of WW2 in school. Britain's role was failry insignificant and didn't start until 1942.
We truly are between Scylla and Charybdis....

Cameron's got his own country of financial issues to rectify, and we don't even use the Euro.

reply to post by Aestheteka


The UK was the most powerful nation on the planet. Without being in the EU. It was a major industrial power through two major world wars and there after. Without being in the EU. The UK has been one of Europe's most successful Nations throughout history. Without being in the EU.

The only thing the EU has given the UK is immigrants to do work cheaper than native Brits will work for, thereby increasing corporate profit and thus GDP. There is no reason why the European nations, including the UK, cannot have open border policies for leisure and business travel.. free trade is easily possible too (many, many nations around the World, especially the USA, have free-trade policies without being in a union).

The EU is an assault of individual sovereignty as power is consolidated into a centralized EU government.. and they will use this crisis to advance the consolidation of power continuously until you resemble a Federalist system and national identity is destroyed. Already the power of the ECB has advanced ten fold, and now has the power to monetize individual nations debts at the expense of EU tax payers.

If we are being forced to pay even the smallest amount to prop up a currency we don't use then we should be involved in all the discussions.
Pretty straight forward to me.

Of course we should have a referendum on Europe.
Prior to his election Cameron promised one, now, just like his predecessors that he so publicly criticised, he is reneging on his word.

Much as we need the honest, open and public debate on the pro's and con's of EU membership this is becoming a secondary issue.

The vast majority of the British electorate want a referendum.
They are currently being denied their right to self-determination.
Cameron arrogantly insists he knows better than the British people what is best for them.
Politicians are elected to do our bidding and not to dictate to us.

ETA.
Just to add;
It's hardly surprising that despite public displays of affection Sarkozy and Cameron clash on almost everything.
They are both smug, arrogant bastards.
Sarkozy is the archetypical pompous, surrender monkey, English hating Frenchman.
Cameron is the typical Eton educated, toffee nosed, silver spoon, snobby toff Englishman.

reply to post by Freeborn


That is a very good point and earns you a star! I hadn't even thought of it in that context but you are totally correct, if we have to contribute anything at all then we have to be involved. Im actually quite ashamed of myself for not considering that aspect!

The problem is, any vote to move away from the EU or renegotiate our involvement is likely to isolate us within Europe. As much anti-EU sentiment as there is, very few people take into account the consequences of leaving the EU and the possible negative effects it may have on our economy and standing within Europe and the world.

reply to post by lifeissacred


That maybe true.
Which is why we need open and honest debate giving all sides the chance to voice their opinion free from MSM manuipulation.

But the point is that it is our right to decide who governs us and not the politicians.

If the British electorate choose to stay within the EU then so be it.
But we demand the right to choose.

reply to post by Freeborn


I don't see anyone demanding the right to choose, no protests demanding a referendum. People are more concerned about the economy and housing than they are about our relationship to the EU. No doubt everyone has an opinion and it is our right to voice our approval/disapproval of our relationship with the EU, but it seems the 80 backbenchers who are trying to push for this referendum should be worrying about the bigger concerns the majority of the British electorate have.

reply to post by lifeissacred


The bigger concerns many of the British electorate have are directly tied to the EU. The state of the economy is terrible and will get a whole lot worse if we get involved in more bailouts of Euro states and big banks. The huge influx of immigrants was due to the EU membership. Our farming and trade inqualities are a direct result of the EU.
In fact, just about every ill adversely affecting our country can be tied to our membership of the EU and the big banks that select our leaders for us.
Trade will not just cease if we leave the EU. If other states / companies abroad want products we make then they will buy them, irrespective of whether we are members of the EU or not.

And finally... that nasty little midget Sarkozy would do well to realise that a helluva lot of his own people are also thoroughly cheesed off with him and the EU as well.

reply to post by lifeissacred


Whilst I agree 'demand' was probably a bit extreme the vast majority of British people want a referendum and want a say in who governs them.
The constant denial of these wishes is dictatorial and shows exactly how unrepresentative, unaccountable and undemocratic our electoral and parliamentary processes are.

Along with the treasonous transfer of sovereignty from Westminster to Brussels which every Prime Minister from Heath onwards and our monarch have been guilty of allowing I think Britguy pretty much nailed the genuine concerns that a large percentage of the British electorate have.

Britain needs these debates if we are to move forward and continue growing and developing, stifling debate and discussion is creating nothing but distrust, resentment and animosity.

reply to post by Freeborn


Oh I agree with you and Britguy on those issues for the most part, though he is slightly optimistic that trade with Britain from European countries wouldn't be effected as the EU is in place to streamline the economic policies of member nations, in leaving the EU it makes trade with Britain that much more difficult and less beneficial without us in turn offering generous tax breaks etc. The EU is beneficial to economies because it helps to stimulate cross border trade and development. Also there's the issue of the EU regeneraton funding for many British towns etc.

Aside from that my point was, that leaving the EU could in effect be detrimental to Britain in the long run as it would isolate us. What is needed is reform of the European Union itself, or at the very most re-negotiation of our involvement with it, not our departure from it.

I personally like the European idea (though in the past it has not been without its problems), I think if it's done right then the EU will be a successful political union and will have a firm place in our future, using the current climate when things are bad for everyone to evaluate our relationship with the EU is in my opinion incorrect as we run the risk of painting an inaccurate picture of the value of the European Union to Britains interests.

reply to post by Aestheteka


My vote is "OUT"...why?

Its simple! It wouldnt be based on finances or currency or whatever, it would be based on the simple fact below, because if the EU can make a decision like the below then there is no hope for Europe - AT ALL

"Any fish caught above the quota by fisherman must be dumped back into the sea - DEAD"

Really, Really, I mean REALLY...where is the sense?

Britain has always been invaded by someone from Europe....From the Romans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Celts, Normans...etc etc.

Before this "Common Market" rubbish started, Little Britain was quite well stocked with Beef, Lamb, Wool, Butter, Raw Materials from Big Britain !! and its little friend Un Zud.

We sent you food etc, and you sent us joys like the Morris Major, Austin A30/40/50 and Cambridge etc etc.

As we supply most of China with its raw materials, Im sure we could spare a little for the Motherland.

Of course, thats if they want to reunite the "Family" again, and Phone Home.

So what is it UK, those Damn foreigners, or your descendants??
Choose wisely.

reply to post by lifeissacred


As important that the details of all the pro's and con's of the arguement are it is more important that the public debate takes place with every side having an equal opportunity to express their opinion and then vote in a referendum.

At present the major parties are trying to stifle the debate, deny the electorate the opportunity to express their wishes and impose their own wishes upon the nation.

It saddens me that the British people see no alternative other than just accepting the dictates of Parliament.
Parliament seeks to preserve the party political system which forces MP's to obey the party line rather than follow their own personal conviction or promote the wishes of their constituents.
Parliament fails to represent the wishes of the British people and needs urgent and radical reform giving a true say to the people in the running of this country and accountability of all elected officials.

Alas, it seems the majority are brainwashed into believing that the current system is the only viable one.