Will The Real Christians Please Stand UP.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bogomil

 

No self-appointed guru delusions-of-grandeur, please.

If someone actually was grand, then it would not be a delusion?
I would hate to think what sort of reaction a person not already being familiar with the Bible would have, following that advise, to read Romans and John. A grand guru would write a beginners version and post it here, then that would be something.

As I've written to you elsewhere, this kind of subject (~truth, reality, absolutes, methods to find such) ALWAYS eventually ends in epistemology, where reference-points are searched for.

As 'epistemology' is one of my regularly recurrent requests (often to the point of insistence on my part) in my confrontations with the OT-based invasive christianities present on this forum, I have...... in spite of my two years on ATS asking for this..... not yet met an OT-christian, who has followed this direction.

I suspect, that even the word 'epistemology' itself (and its meaning) is beyond the understanding of the standard OT/pauline-propagandist.

So I find it very unlikely, that any of the above-mentioned christians will be able to write even a reasonably unbiased 'beginners version'.

These guys practically always are unaware of the differences between assumptions and axioms (i.e. the subjective and the objective) and try to sneak in unvalidated doctrines through the backdoor.

There are philosophers, theologians, logicians, scientists and whatever who can and will make such serious unbiased efforts of finding sound fundaments. It would surprise me very much to find one such person amongst the OT/pauline preachers here.

(Whereas there are some really keen minds amongst the gentle-Jesus followers, non-pauline christians, OT - NT 'separators' and similar).

This thread has been up long enough. So far we only have 2, maybe I should ask the non-believers. I'm sure S&F would be all over it.

Oh well.... For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”’ Matthew 18:20

Gladly star and flag. Great thread idea! Humbly Seeking the Good of Life

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


You wrote:

["This thread has been up long enough."]

Long enough for what? Maybe long enough to demonstrate, that the concept of 'true christians' mainly is an expression of the elitist christians' monopoly-seeking, even amongst their own ranks.

Quote: ["So far we only have 2,...."]

Two what?

Quote continued: ["....maybe I should ask the non-believers......"]

You COULD start by simply anwering to the opposition manifested on this thread.

Quote continued: ["......I'm sure S&F would be all over it."]

To my knowledge flags can only be given to a thread as such. Why should the presence of non-believers on this thread add to flag-giving (unless it's a sympathy manifestation of a common christian front, which behind closed doors has been two-thousand years of quibblings and sometimes violent fights about who the 'true christians' really are).

Quote: ["Oh well.... For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”’ Matthew 18:20"]

If the bible says so, it MUST be 'true'. But in any case there's ofcourse safety in numbers, even as few as two or three.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


Gladly star and flag. Great thread idea! Humbly Seeking the Good of Life

Thanks Brother, there should be no shame in confessing His name or fear of persecution for doing so. I will always support the true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and I will always give honor to His name.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


Gladly star and flag. Great thread idea! Humbly Seeking the Good of Life

Thanks Brother, there should be no shame in confessing His name or fear of persecution for doing so. I will always support the true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and I will always give honor to His name.

Matthew 7:13

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

As a fellow believer, you recognize that the true light of truth shines and speaks for itself. One sure indication that a faith produced by God is real is to follow the path of His word to evidence against the darkness. No answer on earth stands against the Word of God for long before the darkness is revealed by the light.

Again, great thread.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Dear RealTruthSeeker,

You've enticed bogomil to respond, that in itself is a stroke of good fortune. If you're looking for logical analysis, rigorous thinking, impervious honesty, and someone willing to entertain the value of mysticism, he's your man. I can't say enough for him.

I haven't seen in him any desire to be a poet or a spiritual director, perhaps he's hiding those gifts. But don't discount him. I've had the chance to correspond with him and its been very fruitful.

But as for my personal beliefs, I do believe that Jesus is the Son of the Eternal God. I believe in the Trinity as traditionally described. I believe that the Bible has many purposes; history, poetry, music, theology and prophecy. I believe that the New Testament gives practical advice as well as spiritual uplift, and opens the door to greater and greater understanding, somehow providing ever new truths by ancient words.

I believe that the soul of each individual will live forever and is therefore of more worth than systems, cultures, or civilizations which will die eventually. It is my duty to avoiding damaging other's souls and to aid them if I can, and to protect my own. I also believe in both the Beatific and Horrific Visions.

I most certainly do not believe that I am a real Christian, that is a goal for me, and God only knows whether I am close to that goal.

It may be that I have failed to answer your question to your satisfaction. That is undoubtedly my failing of skill, not desire.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Not only do I wholly believe in every word, but I also am not afraid to confess it before men.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


Gladly star and flag. Great thread idea! Humbly Seeking the Good of Life

Thanks Brother, there should be no shame in confessing His name or fear of persecution for doing so. I will always support the true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and I will always give honor to His name.

And you still haven't got the differences between 'offering' and 'pushing' straight. (Or possibly you choose to ignore them in your missionary zeal).

Fortunately most religionists don't feel the need for monopoly, .....being THE 'true' whatever, but can get along without invasive elitism.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


Gladly star and flag. Great thread idea! Humbly Seeking the Good of Life

Thanks Brother, there should be no shame in confessing His name or fear of persecution for doing so. I will always support the true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and I will always give honor to His name.

Matthew 7:13

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

As a fellow believer, you recognize that the true light of truth shines and speaks for itself. One sure indication that a faith produced by God is real is to follow the path of His word to evidence against the darkness. No answer on earth stands against the Word of God for long before the darkness is revealed by the light.

Again, great thread.

Great circular argumentation. It's true, because it's true, and true christians are true christians because they say they are true christians, and once 'we' have the power, 'we' can excommunicate dissidents.

Or for the really stubborn dissidents....'we' can 'persuade' 'heretics' to accept conditional christian love....for their own good ofcourse.

reply to post by bogomil

Great circular argumentation. It's true, because it's true, and true christians are true christians because they say they are true christians, and once 'we' have the power, 'we' can excommunicate dissidents.

Or for the really stubborn dissidents....'we' can 'persuade' 'heretics' to accept conditional christian love....for their own good ofcourse.

Nope. It is true because history, as an artifact of evidence, confirms and bears witness by example. It is true because human experience on the level of abstract reasoning, as well as concrete reality, bears witness and confirms the Word of God to be what it claims. It is true because we can see into the future by the light of God's word and then watch it come back by our view a second time as prophecy becomes reality. We can then reflect forward to the past as we experience the future we see coming from both directions. Hebrew tradition sees the past as in front because we see it before us as tangible and concrete. The future is behind because we have yet to see it. God gives us the ability to see the future in front by drawing the future into the past for us to examine as true from both sides of time. This is, again, evidence we can verify.

We also have science to back up the claims of the Bible that reality is created; is an image, and arises from what is not seen. You can reference this in Genesis 1:1; in Genesis 1:27; in Hebrews 1:3, and many other verses that reveal our origin. LINK

You are standing alone on your incredulity and self-created myth by blind reason. Reason needs an image to self-reflect. We have this in the Word of God; in history; in art, and by experience.

Now that I have demonstrated context that can be verified, please provide context for you view. What exactly can pure reason reveal to us from your perspective? Where do you draw your insight?

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

As you can see here, I do not stand against you, but for God. I stand not on my bias against you, but for your ultimate salvation and forgiveness through Christ Jesus. Bias can only stand against another person, creating ground for them to stand back against with more bias. God does not stand against anyone. God stands on the higher ground of truth and equity for all of mankind in loving-kindness to others. Love demands that we love all others. God is one of the others. All law and all truth can be summed up in love.

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

reply to post by charles1952


Dear Charles, thanks for your kind words and let me reprociate them from my perspective.

I'm not in a position of competence to evaluate the finer points of inner-christian theology. But I have normal reading-skills and some experience with 'ideology' as a category, and from there I think I can form an opinion as well as anybody else concerning 'christianity' (considering that christians can't agree amongst themselves on the point of 'true' christianity, I may even have a small advantage in being unbiased, as I'm not relying on doctrinal interpretation quibbles).

So for what's it's worth, I'll nominate individuals like you as being closer to what I percieve as 'true' christianity. Hope this doesn't embarrass you.

My criteria for this is a 'gentle Jesus' and not necessarily seeing faith and rational reasoning as antagonists. They (faith and rational reasoning) are simply missing the connecting link (as you may remember, I'm a rational metaphysicist myself), and any integrated and existentially sane person can easily live without using his/her personal version of such a 'missing connecting link' as a desparate monopoly-seeking 'tool'.

For my sake you (as a person) could 'believe' in a special kind of small green frogs (as muslims 'believe' in their black stone), and my sympathy for your attitudes wouldn't be diminished.

In the name of the great noodle-master, there are people spending most of their spare-time behind a TV looking at 22 individuals fighting about a ball. For good or bad mankind makes this kind of peculiar choices, so eating an egg with the pointed end up (or not), or eating leavened or unleavened bread (an 'official' quibble between the western and eastern christianities still being somewhat active after app. 1.000 years), shouldn't be something to fight about.


Football hooligans can after some pints start fights about their 'colours'. Religionists can, drunk on 'holiness', do the same. If you allegorically like to look at TV-football and/or have chosen 'colours', is none of my business, because I'm quite convinced, that you won't be a public nuisance because of it.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Nope. It is true because history, as an artifact of evidence, confirms and bears witness by example. It is true because human experience on the level of abstract reasoning, as well as concrete reality, bears witness and confirms the Word of God to be what it claims."]

Cutting through your excessive language, this means, that SOME people 'bear witness' to whatever they bear witness to. Be it hard-core communism, nazism or christian extremism.

Quote: ["It is true because we can see into the future by the light of God's word and then watch it come back by our view a second time as prophecy becomes reality."]

The present 'last resort' christian apologetics: Prophecies. The systematic methodology of christian prophecies is as worthless as creationist pseudo-science or the circular argumentation for a bible 'proving itself'.

Quote: ["We can then reflect forward to the past as we experience the future we see coming from both directions. Hebrew tradition sees the past as in front because we see it before us as tangible and concrete. The future is behind because we have yet to see it. God gives us the ability to see the future in front by drawing the future into the past for us to examine as true from both sides of time."]

From a rational perspective this is gibberish.

Quote: ["This is, again, evidence we can verify."]

Your 'evidence'-criteria are so individualized and bizarre, that they need a presentation and validation as a subject per se.

Quote: ["We also have science to back up the claims of the Bible that reality is created; is an image, and arises from what is not seen. You can reference this in Genesis 1:1; in Genesis 1:27; in Hebrews 1:3, and many other verses that reveal our origin"]

It's very strange, that I haven't seen you around on threads, where such has been discussed in detail. As is common for you, you just vaguely refer to some obscure, badly sourced reference (often yourself elsewhere, slightly rephrasing your 'arguments').

Quote: ["You are standing alone on your incredulity and self-created myth by blind reason."]

What would you know about that? I actually get very well along with all categories of contributors on this forum, ofcourse except missionary christian extremists.

Quote: ["Reason needs an image to self-reflect."]

I'm a philosophical (moderate) scepticist, fully aware of the epistemological implications of truth/reality-seeking methodology. Can we skip the sandbox level and get straight to the essential points of that.

Quote: ["Now that I have demonstrated context that can be verified, please provide context for you view."]

You have only demonstrated your own cottage-industry pseudo-argumentation. And every time I present you with some hard facts you can relate to, you make a disappearence-act (e.g. your twisted version of theoretical physics, not-beyond 6th-grade mathematics and misapplication of Heisenberg's uncertainty-principle).

Quote: ["What exactly can pure reason reveal to us from your perspective? Where do you draw your insight?"]

And that's ALL you understand of my basic position? When have I ever promoted 'pure reason' as THE absolute (as you promote 'true christiniaty' and your home-brewed bible-interpretation methodology as 'absolutes').

(Concerning where I draw my 'insight' from, most of my more deep-loding posts point to that. But considering, that you hardly understand the basics of logic, rational reasoning or philosophy, you probably have missed it).

..I've fallen..and I can't stand up .

(sorry..just had to throw that ol' commercial line in here.. it was just too appropriate)

I would ask my brother Christians to consider (I have no right to do more than that) three conflicts that should be studied and resolved.

1.) Different languages. From the little I've seen here everyone seems to be talking past each other because different languages are being used, Faith and Logic. May I suggest that it is up to the Christians to learn the language of the people they are talking to? Faith can and has used logic in the past, no need to abandon it.

2.) Different axioms or assumptions. I'm sure you are not surprised that many on ATS are not even Deists, let alone believers in anything resembling a Christian God. If the Christians proceed on the assumption that everyone believes there is a God and it's just a matter of fine tuning the details, difficulties will arise.

3.) Lack of a story. Alright, Christians do have the Great Story, but repetition has made nearly everyone in the Western world familiar with it. If someone draws no strength or enlightenment from it, boredom and rejection will set in. May I suggest a new story? Not a different story, the old story told in a new way.

This is a conspiracy website. Surely the creative among you can relate a timeless conspiracy of a group with near-total power using treachery, greed, and violence in an effort to indoctrinate or destroy humanity world-wide. The conspiracy fighters would meet in small groups using a power shown by science to alter brain waves. Meanwhile, from another dimension encompassing and interpenetrating our own, help is coming.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

There is pretty good evidence that Colossians is a forgery and was not in fact written by Paul.
If you wanted to find another place in the Bible to say the same sort of thing, probably the next choice would be Hebrews, another most likely forgery.
There is also pretty good evidence that Paul created his own canon of his writings to be copied and distributed. The official Paul canon being, Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, and Galatians, exactly in that order, as they are in every single copy of the New Testament ever made.
So, can you make a compilation of verses from those four indisputably Pauline writings that says the same thing as what you quoted from that highly questionable (and almost universally rejected by Bible scholars) Book of Colossians?

Originally posted by charles1952
I would ask my brother Christians to consider (I have no right to do more than that) three conflicts that should be studied and resolved.

1.) Different languages. From the little I've seen here everyone seems to be talking past each other because different languages are being used, Faith and Logic. May I suggest that it is up to the Christians to learn the language of the people they are talking to? Faith can and has used logic in the past, no need to abandon it.

2.) Different axioms or assumptions. I'm sure you are not surprised that many on ATS are not even Deists, let alone believers in anything resembling a Christian God. If the Christians proceed on the assumption that everyone believes there is a God and it's just a matter of fine tuning the details, difficulties will arise.

3.) Lack of a story. Alright, Christians do have the Great Story, but repetition has made nearly everyone in the Western world familiar with it. If someone draws no strength or enlightenment from it, boredom and rejection will set in. May I suggest a new story? Not a different story, the old story told in a new way.

This is a conspiracy website. Surely the creative among you can relate a timeless conspiracy of a group with near-total power using treachery, greed, and violence in an effort to indoctrinate or destroy humanity world-wide. The conspiracy fighters would meet in small groups using a power shown by science to alter brain waves. Meanwhile, from another dimension encompassing and interpenetrating our own, help is coming.

Dear Charles,

I'm 100% behind you or at your side on this. And I can easily 'turn down my noise-level' to a creative dialogue with you on this basis you have presented. Even to the point of admitting the shortcomings of my position (of which there ofcourse are some).

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

So, can you make a compilation of verses from those four indisputably Pauline writings that says the same thing as what you quoted from that highly questionable, and almost universally rejected by Bible scholar, Book of Colossians?

I'm sorry, "highly questionable?" "almost universally rejected?"
This is real news to me. Please give me a source or two The Bible scholars who translate, edit, and publish Bibles would disagree.

reply to post by charles1952
Those scholars are in the employ of book publishers who are in the business of selling Bibles, mostly to church-going Christians who would boycott a Bible that had a warning message that a lot of the books of the NT canon are in fact forgeries to introduce false doctrine.

Here is one good source, if you read German:
Walter Bujard, Stilanalytische Untersuchungen zum Kolosserbrief: Als Beitrag zur Methodik von Sprachvergleichen (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1973).

reply to post by jmdewey60


Dear jmdewey60,

Thanks for responding, but I must not have made myself clear. What I was wondering was, what is the evidence for your belief that Bible scholars overwhelmingly view Colossians as false (or illegitimate, or whatever word you used)?

With respect,
Charles1952